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Sadly this is becoming a trend.
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Just heard an update on the news
Shooter was an ex-state trooper. there is not a piece of gun control legislation that would have prevented this.
Cops will always have their guns. Gun control is for the little people.
Shooter was an ex-state trooper. there is not a piece of gun control legislation that would have prevented this.
Cops will always have their guns. Gun control is for the little people.
Latest update:
http://www.wtnh.com/Global/story.asp?S=3477088
The story: Retired trooper and his wife were due in court for a civil matter. He shot his ex-wife, her att'y and then himself. Ex-wife was DRT, the retired trooper died in the hospital and the att'y is listed as stable.
http://www.wtnh.com/Global/story.asp?S=3477088
The story: Retired trooper and his wife were due in court for a civil matter. He shot his ex-wife, her att'y and then himself. Ex-wife was DRT, the retired trooper died in the hospital and the att'y is listed as stable.
It still doesn't help when people are shooting thier wives and laywers. Well, maybe some of the laywers.
But it just gives the brady bunch more to use against us...
Yet, from watching some of my friends go through a divorce, I can understand why he would want to do it, but still...
But it just gives the brady bunch more to use against us...
Yet, from watching some of my friends go through a divorce, I can understand why he would want to do it, but still...
racer934 said:
Typical cop, can't shoot. I know some can, but many can't. Good thing for the lawyer he wasn't military or retired/ex-military.
Edited to add: This isn't a slam on any ex-LEO's here, since almost all of you appear to be ex-military. And ANY LEO that visits a gun board probably CAN shoot. So the above comment WASN'T directed to any one here.
Nickle, as LE I am not offended by your comments. However, I am embarrassed because you are "spot on"! Most LEOs that I've worked with couldn't shoot their way out of a paperbag.
The exceptions that I know actually belong to gun clubs, practice all the time, on their own time and dime and actually enjoy the shooting sports. Sadly they are the minority in the larger picture.
The exceptions that I know actually belong to gun clubs, practice all the time, on their own time and dime and actually enjoy the shooting sports. Sadly they are the minority in the larger picture.
Don't be embarrassed, shame them into improving themselves. The reason a lot of military (esp Army and Marines) can shoot, is we know our lives DEPEND on it.
My son's father in law is a retired VT State Cop. He's an avid hunter, but boy, he can get embarrassed when I outshoot his scoped deer rifles with my rack grade M14 (with no scope) or my AR clone.
He just can't figure out WHY I don't use a scope in the woods. I told him I've been able to hit silhouettes at 400 meters with open sights, and he still doesn't get it.
I do carry Binoculars to "spot" with, and did suceed in getting him to do the same.
My son's father in law is a retired VT State Cop. He's an avid hunter, but boy, he can get embarrassed when I outshoot his scoped deer rifles with my rack grade M14 (with no scope) or my AR clone.
He just can't figure out WHY I don't use a scope in the woods. I told him I've been able to hit silhouettes at 400 meters with open sights, and he still doesn't get it.
I do carry Binoculars to "spot" with, and did suceed in getting him to do the same.
LE is a strange breed, most become "union wo/men" and thus they won't do anything that they aren't paid to do!
A good friend who used to work with me as a Special/Reserve PO (he was the Beretta Rep for New England, had an FFL, enjoyed shooting, member of another gun club with me, etc.) went on the department full-time about 4-5 years ago. I gave him the flier for Chief Glidden's talk and he says to me "I wonder if the chief will pay me OT to go?" I laughed, as our chief hates guns, only authorizes the minimum to meet state standards (no real MA standards, just recommendations . . . which is screwing retirees on HR218) and would never pay anyone to get more practice or learn about the gun laws.
Needless to say, he didn't show up at Chief Glidden's seminar. Glidden runs a very similar seminar for LEOs only at $135/officer (that our chief wouldn't pay for either) and they pass up an opportunity to get most of the same info for free (3 hours of their time! BR&P paid Chief Glidden $400 and offered it free to all comers as a "public service"). A number of other officers that I personally invited also didn't show. I've even invited a number of officers/chiefs to join me as my guest at BR&P just for practice . . . none have ever taken me up on the offer.
A good friend who used to work with me as a Special/Reserve PO (he was the Beretta Rep for New England, had an FFL, enjoyed shooting, member of another gun club with me, etc.) went on the department full-time about 4-5 years ago. I gave him the flier for Chief Glidden's talk and he says to me "I wonder if the chief will pay me OT to go?" I laughed, as our chief hates guns, only authorizes the minimum to meet state standards (no real MA standards, just recommendations . . . which is screwing retirees on HR218) and would never pay anyone to get more practice or learn about the gun laws.
Needless to say, he didn't show up at Chief Glidden's seminar. Glidden runs a very similar seminar for LEOs only at $135/officer (that our chief wouldn't pay for either) and they pass up an opportunity to get most of the same info for free (3 hours of their time! BR&P paid Chief Glidden $400 and offered it free to all comers as a "public service"). A number of other officers that I personally invited also didn't show. I've even invited a number of officers/chiefs to join me as my guest at BR&P just for practice . . . none have ever taken me up on the offer.
I missed the last seminar offered because of work but I am seriously interested in attending.LenS said:
This seminar would be just what every officer needs. The problem is, we are required to attend 40 hrs of in-service (including firearm qual) training every year. Len, you can back me up on this......The training we receive is geared to taking the liabilty off of the Chief and the City/Town. The training is mostly a joke and is only there so that when an officer screws up, the chief can point his finger and say, "He was trained". Pure and simple. Now what we're seeing is classes that are "required" by the FEDs so the dept can get federal grant $$$. Example: 8 Hrs of Critical Incident Managment that has nothing to do with the first responder. When the poop hits the fan, the brass all show up when the cameras are rolling and we do the grunt work, not "media relations" like they taught us about.
Some depts take firearms training very seriously. Sadly, most do not. They simply cannot be bothered with it. I can't even get ammo to practice on my own time.
OK I'm ranting.....Microphone OFF
Nickle said:
I figured money was part of the reason, but I don't know how any city council would deny any dept of the needed revenue to pay for firearms training.
TonyD
One Shot One Maggie's Drawers
Nickle said:
Pretty true. When I was a defensive tactics instructor, it was difficult to get dept's to pay for training or compensate the officers for the time, or give them the time off. It all comes down to bean counters.
OK Derek, check this out.derek said:
I live and work in the biggest town in the state of Massachusetts, 105 square miles. The only range in town is the Rod & Gun club. From what I understand, a suggestion was made to the chief of a piece of town owned land that could be used for a range for the dept. The chief shot it down saying that he "didn't want the noise complaints".
We qual once a year per the State reg and it fullfills the requirement. Anymore than that and it's a money issue.
Which is another reason I always donate a box of ammo for each officer in the dept I live in each year. I told Chief Sherril in Holden that I would like them to use the ammo for range practice.
Interesting change of subject.
As an instructor and having friends and a little bro in LE, I can say that the lack of training is definately Apathy and $$$$.
The Apathy comes from the perception of, "It won't happen." or even worse, "When it does happen, the insurance is cheaper to cover the costs of a bad shoot or an accident than it is to train all my officers."
Sad thing is, the inexpensive training opportunities for individual officers and agencies are out there. There is no excuse not to send officers to outside training and enhance in-service. Lots of folks out there who are willing to donate their time and materials. Sadly, the attitude infects individual officers who refuse to use "their" time to train or consider themselves special, as the threats out there don't apply to them.
I have been party to questions directed towards my brother about his training schedule. Firearms, DT, driving, interview/interrogation, anti-terrorism, computer crime, etc. "Why do you need that?" or the ever present, "When are you ever going to use that?"
Another aspect of the individual officer not taking training opportunities is the lack of motivation. I have seen too many agencies make promotion decisions outside of the best person for the job and rather promote/appoint friends/buddies/people who won't rock the boat. Now, where is the motivation to make yourself better at your job if you are going to stay in your current position irrespective of your abilities or skills?
Now, add (or subtract) the money that it takes to train individual officers/a platoon or a department... It isn't as sexy or a PR-friendly as a new Helo, "traffic enforcement Mustang" or a dog or two for DARE engagements.
It is a sad state of affairs.
As an instructor and having friends and a little bro in LE, I can say that the lack of training is definately Apathy and $$$$.
The Apathy comes from the perception of, "It won't happen." or even worse, "When it does happen, the insurance is cheaper to cover the costs of a bad shoot or an accident than it is to train all my officers."
Sad thing is, the inexpensive training opportunities for individual officers and agencies are out there. There is no excuse not to send officers to outside training and enhance in-service. Lots of folks out there who are willing to donate their time and materials. Sadly, the attitude infects individual officers who refuse to use "their" time to train or consider themselves special, as the threats out there don't apply to them.
I have been party to questions directed towards my brother about his training schedule. Firearms, DT, driving, interview/interrogation, anti-terrorism, computer crime, etc. "Why do you need that?" or the ever present, "When are you ever going to use that?"
Another aspect of the individual officer not taking training opportunities is the lack of motivation. I have seen too many agencies make promotion decisions outside of the best person for the job and rather promote/appoint friends/buddies/people who won't rock the boat. Now, where is the motivation to make yourself better at your job if you are going to stay in your current position irrespective of your abilities or skills?
Now, add (or subtract) the money that it takes to train individual officers/a platoon or a department... It isn't as sexy or a PR-friendly as a new Helo, "traffic enforcement Mustang" or a dog or two for DARE engagements.
It is a sad state of affairs.
Training
Training funds are limited by budgets. Police departments have much more than firearm's skills to worry about. States have piled on many required training areas and have not provided a dime to cover the costs. So the dollar gets divided in many ways. Departments have to wonder what is more likely....a domestic violence incident or a shooting incident. There goes the funding...
Plus contracts limit how the department can pull the required manpower to train. In addition, a department in a major metropolitain area may have to rent an indoor facility at great cost or travel many miles to a suitable outdoor facility, again at great cost.
So the problem is not as easy as it would seem. As far as the indiviual officer spending his own dollars to train.....don't hold your breath..They are few and far between.. [roll]
Training funds are limited by budgets. Police departments have much more than firearm's skills to worry about. States have piled on many required training areas and have not provided a dime to cover the costs. So the dollar gets divided in many ways. Departments have to wonder what is more likely....a domestic violence incident or a shooting incident. There goes the funding...
Plus contracts limit how the department can pull the required manpower to train. In addition, a department in a major metropolitain area may have to rent an indoor facility at great cost or travel many miles to a suitable outdoor facility, again at great cost.
So the problem is not as easy as it would seem. As far as the indiviual officer spending his own dollars to train.....don't hold your breath..They are few and far between.. [roll]
Re: Training
Understood. My observation about lack of budget for training was not limited to firearms, DT or other ninja stuff. It runs through almost every aspect of a LEO's job.
Again, completely understood. However, that is no excuse for not equipping ones' officers with the proper training and tools to do their job, safely.
No kidding. I know I am no position to adjust administrators' mindsets or solve this one aspect of a LEO's challenge on the street. One point about an officer spending their own time/money on training: True, they are few and far between and thankfully, the folks I have trained with and trained are at the top of their game and see the time and money spent as an investment in their career and well being. Unfortunately, they are the minority. But, almost any other career encourages and rewards those who spend their time and money training within (or even outside) their chosen profession. It has been my observation that LEOs seem to be more resistant to making that investment.
rscalzo said:
Understood. My observation about lack of budget for training was not limited to firearms, DT or other ninja stuff. It runs through almost every aspect of a LEO's job.
Again, completely understood. However, that is no excuse for not equipping ones' officers with the proper training and tools to do their job, safely.
No kidding. I know I am no position to adjust administrators' mindsets or solve this one aspect of a LEO's challenge on the street. One point about an officer spending their own time/money on training: True, they are few and far between and thankfully, the folks I have trained with and trained are at the top of their game and see the time and money spent as an investment in their career and well being. Unfortunately, they are the minority. But, almost any other career encourages and rewards those who spend their time and money training within (or even outside) their chosen profession. It has been my observation that LEOs seem to be more resistant to making that investment.
LEO Training
Another big factor in firearm's training, at least in New Jersey where I spend 30 years on the job was the availability of a range. They are far and few between in NJ and becoming less every year. There was one indoor range within 20 miles in my area. Beyond that, an officer would have to travel over an hour to find a range. Outdoor ranges were basically non-existent. The administration did not care one bit about firearm's training. If left up to them, no one would train at all. [roll]
I'm in heaven up here in NH. I can get to the range three or four times a week. No limitations at all.
Another big factor in firearm's training, at least in New Jersey where I spend 30 years on the job was the availability of a range. They are far and few between in NJ and becoming less every year. There was one indoor range within 20 miles in my area. Beyond that, an officer would have to travel over an hour to find a range. Outdoor ranges were basically non-existent. The administration did not care one bit about firearm's training. If left up to them, no one would train at all. [roll]
I'm in heaven up here in NH. I can get to the range three or four times a week. No limitations at all.
Re: LEO Training
I hear that. Not as nice as NH, but not nearly as bad as Jersey, as I have a few decent indoor and outdoor ranges within an hour. During the week, my brother and I would use a private range (PD and residents) during the day.
The State Police range here in CT is getting pressure from the local residents because of the noise... Same with the Nat'l Guard range. never mind that these facilities have been in operation for many decades before the residents moved into the area...
rscalzo said:
I hear that. Not as nice as NH, but not nearly as bad as Jersey, as I have a few decent indoor and outdoor ranges within an hour. During the week, my brother and I would use a private range (PD and residents) during the day.
The State Police range here in CT is getting pressure from the local residents because of the noise... Same with the Nat'l Guard range. never mind that these facilities have been in operation for many decades before the residents moved into the area...
