Sad day for USMC: Marine Corps eliminating its elite scout sniper platoons

[G4Y4HK]

Is it cause of better tech these days? Back in the old days, a skilled marine sniper could cap a bad guy at 900 yards with an M40 ez pz. We've prob got killing robot machines fitted with .338 lap now. Math no longer required.

 

[weekendracer]

I mean, come on. If we lose WWIII, it won't be because the USMC has no snipers at battalion level.

My read is that the snipers are being retained at higher echelons, then sliced down to the battalions. The MOS is being renamed. I take that to mean that existing snipers will still be snipers, but they'll be grouped together in Recon Battalions. Then, presumably, BN commanders can request teams as attachments for specific missions; the snipers won't be organic.

I don't know enough about Marine MTOE to know what effect that will have. It will probably result in less flexibility for the maneuver commander, but not necessarily.

I'm wondering if they are going to get the training budget/time they get as a designated MOS.

Some officer needs someone to plug a hole in a dike, throw that Marine at it.
But Sir, he is scheduled for range time.
Some officer...I need that hole plugged now.
**sniper plugging the hole gets sniped***
Some officer...WHERE'S MY SNIPER GUY???

 

[Picton]

I'm wondering if they are going to get the training budget/time they get as a designated MOS.

Sure, in theory, the upside would be that these snipers are now exclusively snipers, with no need to compete for resources with the rest of a rifle battalion. I suspect the idea is that whoever commands them in these Recon BNs will be hyper-attuned to their range time, rather than pulled in a million directions because he's also the rifle battalion's HHC commander and has to worry about vehicle maintenance, mortarmen, and cooks.

Again, I'm speculating. I am not any kind of expert in Marine MTOE.

 

[PappyM3]

I mean, come on. If we lose WWIII, it won't be because the USMC has no snipers at battalion level.

My read is that the snipers are being retained at higher echelons, then sliced down to the battalions. The MOS is being renamed. I take that to mean that existing snipers will still be snipers, but they'll be grouped together in Recon Battalions. Then, presumably, BN commanders can request teams as attachments for specific missions; the snipers won't be organic.

I don't know enough about Marine MTOE to know what effect that will have. It will probably result in less flexibility for the maneuver commander, but not necessarily.

They’re turning Scout Snipers into just scouts. They’re not going up to recon.

Rather, some Recon Marines are going to be designated as snipers. Though maybe they’ll give Scout Snipers the option to try out for reconnaissance selection.

It really doesn’t make any sense to me. Scout Snipers at the tactical level, providing tactical level intelligence and effects made sense. They would be much closer to the line Battalions and won’t be in a complete world of hurt when they fire their rifles.

But they’re moving the sniper billets to to an theater/operational intelligence collection element. Recon Marines should be focused on collecting that intelligence which is critical to the operation/theater. In such a place, deeper beyond the FLOT, going hot is very realistically a death sentence to the reconnaissance team. Or at least a failed reconnaissance patrol. And besides, at the theater/operational level, there are going to be plenty of other lethal targeting options aside from a long range rifle.

 

[PappyM3]

I'm wondering if they are going to get the training budget/time they get as a designated MOS.

Some officer needs someone to plug a hole in a dike, throw that Marine at it.
But Sir, he is scheduled for range time.
Some officer...I need that hole plugged now.
**sniper plugging the hole gets sniped***
Some officer...WHERE'S MY SNIPER GUY???

I will say the Reconnaissance Marines already have a very competent sniper school. Even without having a separate Recon Sniper MOS.


View: https://youtube.com/watch?v=8F0Uo0e9BrM


And sadly, many Scout Snipers didn’t get to attend the course for a while and they relied heavily on OJT. I still think it’s taking the sniper capability away from Scout Snipers is stupid though.

 

[Picton]

They’re turning Scout Snipers into just scouts. They’re not going up to recon.

Rather, some Recon Marines are going to be designated as snipers. Though maybe they’ll give Scout Snipers the option to try out for reconnaissance selection.

From the article:

"Instead of completely moving away from sniping, a new MOS 'Reconnaissance Sniper' will be established 'within the Reconnaissance Battalions.'”

There are many ways to read that. One way is that the existing snipers in the S/S platoons will lose their bolt-actions and then there will be Recon BN guys retrained as snipers. Another way (my assumption, because it would make the most sense and save the most money) is that the same school-trained snipers currently in S/S platoons will simply be transferred to the Recon BN to ply their same trade, while reclassifying from "scout sniper" to "reconnaissance sniper." That will have the effect of opening up new slots in the Scout Platoons (which are expanding anyway) for riflemen who want to take the challenge and focus on reconnaissance, rather than sniping. Or painting rocks for the sergeant major.

As I said, who knows?

 

[PappyM3]

From the article:

"Instead of completely moving away from sniping, a new MOS 'Reconnaissance Sniper' will be established 'within the Reconnaissance Battalions.'”

There are many ways to read that. One way is that the existing snipers in the S/S platoons will lose their bolt-actions and then there will be Recon BN guys retrained as snipers. Another way (my assumption, because it would make the most sense and save the most money) is that the same school-trained snipers currently in S/S platoons will simply be transferred to the Recon BN to ply their same trade, while reclassifying from "scout sniper" to "reconnaissance sniper." That will have the effect of opening up new slots in the Scout Platoons (which are expanding anyway) for riflemen who want to take the challenge and focus on reconnaissance, rather than sniping. Or painting rocks for the sergeant major.

As I said, who knows?

Recon Marines already have their own sniper school with graduates. But the Scout Snipers have not yet passed Reconnaissance selection. I would be surprised if they just move Scout Snipers up. But, I do hope they offer them the option of attending selection.

 

[jkelly1229]

I mean, come on. If we lose WWIII, it won't be because the USMC has no snipers at battalion level.

My read is that the snipers are being retained at higher echelons, then sliced down to the battalions. The MOS is being renamed. I take that to mean that existing snipers will still be snipers, but they'll be grouped together in Recon Battalions. Then, presumably, BN commanders can request teams as attachments for specific missions; the snipers won't be organic.

I don't know enough about Marine MTOE to know what effect that will have. It will probably result in less flexibility for the maneuver commander, but not necessarily.

Listen man idk what makes you so qualified on the topic but I've played like every call of duty since 05

I Have 4 6.5 cms

Plus I've seen shooter like 24 times

The marine corps shouldn't get rid of snipers

 

[PappyM3]

From the article:

"Instead of completely moving away from sniping, a new MOS 'Reconnaissance Sniper' will be established 'within the Reconnaissance Battalions.'”

There are many ways to read that. One way is that the existing snipers in the S/S platoons will lose their bolt-actions and then there will be Recon BN guys retrained as snipers. Another way (my assumption, because it would make the most sense and save the most money) is that the same school-trained snipers currently in S/S platoons will simply be transferred to the Recon BN to ply their same trade, while reclassifying from "scout sniper" to "reconnaissance sniper." That will have the effect of opening up new slots in the Scout Platoons (which are expanding anyway) for riflemen who want to take the challenge and focus on reconnaissance, rather than sniping. Or painting rocks for the sergeant major.

As I said, who knows?

Recon Marines already have their own sniper school with graduates. But the Scout Snipers have not yet passed Reconnaissance selection. I would be surprised if they just move Scout Snipers up. But, I do hope they offer them the option of attending selection.

I’ll add that the Recon Marines created their own sniper course (I think in 2021) primarily because of the rumors that the Scout Sniper course would be going away. They didn’t want to lose that capability. But they also adjusted the course for things more relevant to them.

 

[jkelly1229]

From the article:

"Instead of completely moving away from sniping, a new MOS 'Reconnaissance Sniper' will be established 'within the Reconnaissance Battalions.'”

There are many ways to read that. One way is that the existing snipers in the S/S platoons will lose their bolt-actions and then there will be Recon BN guys retrained as snipers. Another way (my assumption, because it would make the most sense and save the most money) is that the same school-trained snipers currently in S/S platoons will simply be transferred to the Recon BN to ply their same trade, while reclassifying from "scout sniper" to "reconnaissance sniper." That will have the effect of opening up new slots in the Scout Platoons (which are expanding anyway) for riflemen who want to take the challenge and focus on reconnaissance, rather than sniping. Or painting rocks for the sergeant major.

As I said, who knows?

Plus id assume if we really are gunna go at it with China

A lot of the sf schools will be a little less selective and more streamlined and as I've already stated my credentials i bet there are some things that overlap they could push both recon and snipers through

 

[Picton]

Plus id assume if we really are gunna go at it with China

A lot of the sf schools will be a little less selective and more streamlined and as I've already stated my credentials i bet there are some things that overlap they could push both recon and snipers through

One of the things that surprised me in the Army was that so few guys slotted as snipers had ever been to a formal school. Those tend to be very small: not selective, per se, just small. There was never very much throughput. But that didn't mean the guys slotted as snipers weren't "good enough" for the battalion-level stuff our scout platoon did.

I think, in a "go-to-war" situation, they'd need to expand those schools, not simply streamline the curriculum. But I also think, unlike the CoD players out there, that there might be legitimate questions to ask about just how many snipers you need on a modern battlefield choked with drones and UAVs in both the observation and shooter roles.

Asking the questions is not a flaw. Maybe, just maybe, sniping might have to go away. Think of how difficult the stalk will be in an AO with dozens of cheap Turkish drones hovering overhead, filming everything. The bang-for-the-buck might fade to the point where your need for snipers will be almost negligible.

I dunno.

 

[jkelly1229]

One of the things that surprised me in the Army was that so few guys slotted as snipers had ever been to a formal school. Those tend to be very small: not selective, per se, just small. There was never very much throughput. But that didn't mean the guys slotted as snipers weren't "good enough" for the battalion-level stuff our scout platoon did.

I think, in a "go-to-war" situation, they'd need to expand those schools, not simply streamline the curriculum. But I also think, unlike the CoD players out there, that there might be legitimate questions to ask about just how many snipers you need on a modern battlefield choked with drones and UAVs in both the observation and shooter roles.

Asking the questions is not a flaw. Maybe, just maybe, sniping might have to go away. Think of how difficult the stalk will be in an AO with dozens of cheap Turkish drones hovering overhead, filming everything. The bang-for-the-buck might fade to the point where your need for snipers will be almost negligible.

I dunno.

I get your point but tech does get countered pretty well usually i assume we have something for drones

 

[Picton]

I get your point but tech does get countered pretty well usually i assume we have something for drones

I think we do.

But whatever we have for drones is unlikely to be portable enough for a sniper team to bring with them on a 6-kilometer low crawl. Not without being compromised, anyway.

Think about it this way: you send out your search drones. The Americans down them all over a particular sector. Why would they do that? Because that's where their guys are.

So you send your patrols out that way on foot, in force. It's not rocket science. There will come a point at which traditional sniper insertions yield diminishing returns, is all I'm thinking.

 

[jkelly1229]

I think we do.

But whatever we have for drones is unlikely to be portable enough for a sniper team to bring with them on a 6-kilometer low crawl. Not without being compromised, anyway.

Think about it this way: you send out your search drones. The Americans down them all over a particular sector. Why would they do that? Because that's where their guys are.

So you send your patrols out that way on foot, in force. It's not rocket science. There will come a point at which traditional sniper insertions yield diminishing returns, is all I'm thinking.

I think of it from more of a cyber attack where hey this drone swarm just attacked our base because the Americans hacked it probably should yank the batteries on the rest of these

I didn't think of it your way... and that makes sense

 

[In God We Trust]

Equity...

You cant have equity when there are "elite" snipers about.

Don't worry, under the new laws, a Marine can get trans surgery after enlisting now.

Any port in a storm.

What happens in the Fox Hole stays in the Fox Hole.

A hole is a hole, amiright?

We had a saying: “if you don’t sleep on your back, your buddy will.”

 

[Wildcard]

Tactical ISR and suicide drones can fill the void and more.

 

[PappyM3]

One of the things that surprised me in the Army was that so few guys slotted as snipers had ever been to a formal school. Those tend to be very small: not selective, per se, just small. There was never very much throughput. But that didn't mean the guys slotted as snipers weren't "good enough" for the battalion-level stuff our scout platoon did.

It might be because my unit was on Fort Benning, but most of our sniper section was all school trained. The exceptions were new guys who didn’t have time during the train up before deployments. But they were generally put in the RTO slot.

 

[Picton]

It might be because my unit was on Fort Benning, but most of our sniper section was all school trained. The exceptions were new guys who didn’t have time during the train up before deployments. But they were generally put in the RTO slot.

I was at Bragg. Which was why I was so surprised so few had been to schools.

I think my battalion had three sniper teams at that time. For the whole BN. I remember eavesdropping at Pre-Ranger one night while all the snipers from the different battalions sat around, bullshitting about who'd been to school and who hadn't. Almost none had, and we had dudes from every brigade there.

 

[AFAR/PFAR]

This topic has already showed up on the board here any many other places.

1. The USMC is not getting rid of snipers.
2. This decision was heavily influenced by infantrymen who thought the SS platoon needed to focus more on the first S instead of playing with guns.
3. Accurate weapons are still available within the conventional infantry battalions.

BL, the SS platoons needed to be reminded of what their primary mission was. Scout is it. The sniper or DM is secondary, but is not excluded from the primary.

 

[PappyM3]

This topic has already showed up on the board here any many other places.

1. The USMC is not getting rid of snipers.
2. This decision was heavily influenced by infantrymen who thought the SS platoon needed to focus more on the first S instead of playing with guns.
3. Accurate weapons are still available within the conventional infantry battalions.

BL, the SS platoons needed to be reminded of what their primary mission was. Scout is it. The sniper or DM is secondary, but is not excluded from the primary.

The USMC is 100% getting rid of the Scout Sniper course. And sniper capabilities are only going to continue on with recon because the recon community knew better and got ahead of it when the rumors of axing Scout Snipers started swirling.

There will be institutional knowledge loss. The precision rifles at the BN level will be in the hands of Marines without the proper training.

 

[SgtHal75]

So at the Infantry Bn level they will be just Scouts…no snipers

And then there will be an added Recon Sniper MOS and platoon to the Recon Bn but thier will be no sniper school to get the Recon Sniper mos…..What a clusterf***

 

[GM-GUY]

I wasn't a Marine - my dad was and an uncle or two, so I have no first hand knowledge - but - I'm betting these folks were relied on heavily for the past 20 years. Now, nope we have all these high tech gadgets - it will be fine.

My quick search

High-power microwave (HPM) / E-Bomb

www.globalsecurity.org

China used EMP weapon to destroy large drone at 1,500 meters

www.china-arms.com

 

[AFAR/PFAR]

The USMC is 100% getting rid of the Scout Sniper course. And sniper capabilities are only going to continue on with recon because the recon community knew better and got ahead of it when the rumors of axing Scout Snipers started swirling.

There will be institutional knowledge loss. The precision rifles at the BN level will be in the hands of Marines without the proper training.

Thinking there will be no training available for DMs in the battalion whether it is USMC level, local training, sister service, or commercial is laughable.

They're axing the whole thing because they wanted all along a 75/25 mix of scout to sniper capabilities. Instead they got a 5/95 and that isn't serving the infantry battalion well at all.

This focuses the platoon to support the commander.

Furthermore, you don't need snipers at the bn level for LSCO. You certainly don't need a whole seperate cultlike MOS who get off on doing their own thing and creates manning concerns when you're short this or that. The DMs will serve just fine in times where you need a better shot, but the reality is everyone already has a magnified optic, and a burst of 7.62 or a couple rounds of 60mm will serve just fine.

The USMC is retaining snipers and the knowledge will remain in the service.

 

[AFAR/PFAR]

So at the Infantry Bn level they will be just Scouts…no snipers

And then there will be an added Recon Sniper MOS and platoon to the Recon Bn but thier will be no sniper school to get the Recon Sniper mos…..What a clusterf***

There is already a condensed recon sniper course. Nine weeks, if I recall correctly.

It is entirely possible and likely that any of the SS POI that isn't already included in the recon sniper course will be moved over.

 

[PappyM3]

Thinking there will be no training available for DMs in the battalion whether it is USMC level, local training, sister service, or commercial is laughable.

They're axing the whole thing because they wanted all along a 75/25 mix of scout to sniper capabilities. Instead they got a 5/95 and that isn't serving the infantry battalion well at all.

This focuses the platoon to support the commander.

Furthermore, you don't need snipers at the bn level for LSCO. You certainly don't need a whole seperate cultlike MOS who get off on doing their own thing and creates manning concerns when you're short this or that. The DMs will serve just fine in times where you need a better shot, but the reality is everyone already has a magnified optic, and a burst of 7.62 or a couple rounds of 60mm will serve just fine.

I never said no training. I said proper training.

And there’s a big difference between snipers and DMs with magnified optics integrated into line squads. But I know you know this. It’s not just about times hen you “need a better shot”.

The real solution to this is to make the SS platoons broken up into a scout section and a sniper section. Provide a clear delineation on focus and missions. But, the Marines don’t like to do things like other services and have to be different.

The USMC is retaining snipers and the knowledge will remain in the service.

They’re retaining snipers in a very specific area, and only because the Recon community had the foresight to retain that institutional knowledge within their community. We shouldn’t kid ourselves into thinking that recon snipers will actually be used effectively for the effects a sniper element usually provides. That would be like making some of the old Army LRSC teams sniper teams. It’s at completely the wrong echelon to be able to filter down. The Recon snipers are going to provide effects for the Recon elements. Not for the line Battalions.

 

[PappyM3]

There is already a condensed recon sniper course. Nine weeks, if I recall correctly.

It is entirely possible and likely that any of the SS POI that isn't already included in the recon sniper course will be moved over.

So at the Infantry Bn level they will be just Scouts…no snipers

And then there will be an added Recon Sniper MOS and platoon to the Recon Bn but thier will be no sniper school to get the Recon Sniper mos…..What a clusterf***

View attachment 728958

The Recon Sniper course is a combination of the Scout Sniper Course and the more advanced Urban Sniper Course.

Differences from the Scout Sniper course include getting rid of fieldcraft things that they’ve already learned in their Recon course, while adding more time with weapon systems that are just given familiarization in the Scout Sniper course.

But I highly doubt any line Marines are going to be attending the Recon Sniper course. The course is designed specifically for those individuals who have already proven their gut check during Recon selection and have the fieldcraft background provided by the Recon school.

 

[Dench]

I wasn't a Marine - my dad was and an uncle or two, so I have no first hand knowledge - but - I'm betting these folks were relied on heavily for the past 20 years. Now, nope we have all these high tech gadgets - it will be fine.

My quick search

High-power microwave (HPM) / E-Bomb

www.globalsecurity.org

China used EMP weapon to destroy large drone at 1,500 meters

www.china-arms.com

From the article posted here regarding the Corps trying to literally guess how warfighting will evolve since WWI goes to show that the Marines should probably just stop trying to guess as they have been wrong on the sniper thing now for literally 100+ years.

Sure, warfighting IS changing right now in drastic ways, specifrically with this new drone thing which hopefully the DoD is putting a lot of money into finding the best way to deal with them and use them. @PappyM3 should be the guy we ask about that as presumably he'd know. Drones werent really a thing when I got out so I know very little about them in modern war besides what I just see in the news, etc.

Would be nice to see them focus on real and new threats instead of removing loved, useful and core aspects of shit we don't need to fiddle with.

I can see why the Marines wanted to drop tanks since that is arguably not their doctrine although they probably have use still. However, when they drop stuff like they are doing here it makes you wonder what the hell is really going on over there. Is this focus group nonsense? An agenda? Who the F knows. It's objectively wrong though.

 

[AFAR/PFAR]

And there’s a big difference between snipers and DMs with magnified optics integrated into line squads. But I know you know this. It’s not just about times hen you “need a better shot”.

No shit.

The real solution to this is to make the SS platoons broken up into a scout section and a sniper section. Provide a clear delineation on focus and missions. But, the Marines don’t like to do things like other services and have to be different.

They're going to an older Army model before we centralized training and issued an ASI.

The Recon snipers are going to provide effects for the Recon elements. Not for the line Battalions.

As they should. Line battalions have more than enough capabilities so they shouldn't need to rely on a recon unit.

 

[PappyM3]

From the article posted here regarding the Corps trying to literally guess how warfighting will evolve since WWI goes to show that the Marines should probably just stop trying to guess as they have been wrong on the sniper thing now for literally 100+ years.

Sure, warfighting IS changing right now in drastic ways, specifrically with this new drone thing which hopefully the DoD is putting a lot of money into finding the best way to deal with them and use them. @PappyM3 should be the guy we ask about that as presumably he'd know. Drones werent really a thing when I got out so I know very little about them in modern war besides what I just see in the news, etc.

Would be nice to see them focus on real and new threats instead of removing loved, useful and core aspects of shit we don't need to fiddle with.

I don’t have a lot of insight into the current field testing and development of drone TTPs at the tactical level. I do know things we’re seeing in Ukraine now have been on TRADOC and others minds for years, since at least the early 2010s.

And I do know Army combat arms are working on refining their integration with the new tech. I just don’t know to what extent at the moment.

It certainly seems like TTP development is not anywhere close to the “walk” phase of crawl, walk, run. And it would (in my opinion) be foolish to drastically alter combat arms MTOE by removing roles to accommodate it at this stage, rather than trying to adapt current roles and seeing how it goes.

I can see why the Marines wanted to drop tanks since that is arguably not their doctrine although they probably have use still. However, when they drop stuff like they are doing here it makes you wonder what the hell is really going on over there. Is this focus group nonsense? An agenda? Who the F knows. It's objectively wrong though.

Yeah, I do get why they nixed the tanks. It’s not the best amphibious tool. And whenever they’re involved in another land battle where tanks would be useful, well the Army will be nearby in that case.

 

[AFAR/PFAR]

The Recon Sniper course is a combination of the Scout Sniper Course and the more advanced Urban Sniper Course.

Differences from the Scout Sniper course include getting rid of fieldcraft things that they’ve already learned in their Recon course, while adding more time with weapon systems that are just given familiarization in the Scout Sniper course.

But I highly doubt any line Marines are going to be attending the Recon Sniper course. The course is designed specifically for those individuals who have already proven their gut check during Recon selection and have the fieldcraft background provided by the Recon school.

and again, that is simply the current POI

Now you're creating an entirely new MOS and POIs will change with that.

Line marines shouldn't expect to go through the recon courses. I'll bet some attend associated training though.

The sky isn't falling.