S&W SD9 VE a Piece of Crap?

[Baikal49]

Mike (drgrant) is probably the most levelheaded person on the entire forum.

Whatever you say.

 

[Baikal49]

Can anyone comment on experience with the Ruger P95. Thanks.

 

[carbuncle]

Can anyone comment on experience with the Ruger P95. Thanks.

My ex had a P-85 for a while, great guns for the price. I hvaen't shot the P-95, but I wouldn't hesitate to buy one.

 

[Jsfitzgerald85]

My first gun was a Sigma 9mm and i regret it, i paid with taxes 460 yes my butt hole hurts, I think there are better choices out there for similar pricing.

 

[drgrant]

Can anyone comment on experience with the Ruger P95. Thanks.

Member Coyote33 generously let me fire his P95DC on Saturday. I hadn't run one of these in awhile, but they were always decent from what I remembered. It worked great. DA is looooong though but the DA pull weight itself was still lighter than many. SA was passable, albeit with a long reset, but most autos in that class don't have a really short reset anyways.

If you want a cheap handgun that goes bang every time, that's the ticket. When I did my job I was hitting steel plates at 30 something feet with it no problem.

If someone told me "You have $350 to get a handgun and a mag or two extra" that is probably what I would choose. They aren't pretty but they are built like brick shithouses. Preban 15 (or more) round mags are also around if you look hard enough for them.

-Mike

 

[Baikal49]

Member Coyote33 generously let me fire his P95DC on Saturday. I hadn't run one of these in awhile, but they were always decent from what I remembered. It worked great. DA is looooong though but the DA pull weight itself was still lighter than many. SA was passable, albeit with a long reset, but most autos in that class don't have a really short reset anyways.

If you want a cheap handgun that goes bang every time, that's the ticket. When I did my job I was hitting steel plates at 30 something feet with it no problem.

If someone told me "You have $350 to get a handgun and a mag or two extra" that is probably what I would choose. They aren't pretty but they are built like brick shithouses. Preban 15 (or more) round mags are also around if you look hard enough for them.

-Mike

Thanks. If you had to pick one, would you go Ruger or S&W?

 

[drgrant]

Thanks. If you had to pick one, would you go Ruger or S&W?

If I was stuck in that corner I'd take the P95 every time. (eg, vs a Sigma).

-Mike

 

[carbuncle]

If I was stuck in that corner I'd take the P95 every time. (eg, vs a Sigma).

-Mike

Me too, the ruger's a surprisingly good gun for the money and takes mags that are cheap and plentiful.

 

[Mr Weebles]

If someone told me "You have $350 to get a handgun and a mag or two extra" that is probably what I would choose. They aren't pretty but they are built like brick shithouses. Preban 15 (or more) round mags are also around if you look hard enough for them.

The Ruger's a nice piece but I bought this for $329 and it came with two mags:

IMO, it's a superior firearm compared to the Ruger.

 

[Baikal49]

If I was stuck in that corner I'd take the P95 every time. (eg, vs a Sigma).

-Mike

Again thank very much. I may pick one up along with the SR22. The P95 seem like a good, inexpensive choice for the home.

 

[drgrant]

The Ruger's a nice piece but I bought this for $329 and it came with two mags:

IMO, it's a superior firearm compared to the Ruger.

Maybe, if you remove the magazine safety, which I remember is pretty easily done. What I like about the Ruger is you can find the decock only versions, (eg, DC) that way in case you accidentally hit the decocker you only decock the gun instead of putting it on safe, although it depends on the size of your hands.

The S&W3rd gens are good guns, too, and there are lots of used ones available on the cheap... and preban mags, too.

-Mike

 

[drunkensobriety]

meh.

If I may make a clarification: the "smegma" (sigma) and the SD# / SD# VE are all accurately stated as being Glock Clones. Nothing more grand or horrible than that. I really don't comprehend the outright contestation over them. I don't own one but I have done work on one. If the particular example of the sigma in .40 S&W was any indicator of the rest of the sigma series than they're good guns with horrible triggers. I removed an unnecessary spring and used an indian sharpening stone (one I use for hss lathe bits) to ;polish some of the fire control parts. After that the trigger pull was under 6 pounds and very similar to a stock glock or springfield xd. I have a test target at 10 yards (30 foot indoor range) with same gun standing unsupported entire magazine in a 2 inch group. I'm a gunsmith - not a professional shooter.

I just don't see what the problem is. It's a glock clone, ok: so it's not an actual Glock, ok - and? This is where I lose sight of the issue. It's not like Glock is the first firearm to have a clone. How many company manufacture the 1911 again? God only knows how many different companies make AR-15's these days. It's not like anyone's really raising hellfire that if you don't buy a genuine Colt then it's not a true 1911. I don't hear too many people saying that if it's not an AR-15 made by Colt - then it's not worth buying.

If I can buy a S&W SD9 VE new in box for the same price that I can buy a *used* Glock 17, and have the benefit of Smith and Wesson's LIFETIME warranty, then ... what's the problem?

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/83125
$301.40
$20 S&H
$22 transfer fee at my local gunshop

$343.40. Not including tax that I'm not aware of. Find me a Glock 17 for that price, any gen. You won't - and this pistol will still have a lifetime warranty from smith and wesson.

Now, I don't own a sigma, Sd or SD VE, nor do I intend to. I prefer DA/SA steel guns like like Sig's and CZ-75's. I generally speaking don't like striker fired guns - I just wanted to take a few moments to inject a nice reality check into this thread. I read 4 pages of ranting and raving about the "smegma" and was left scratching my head trying to figure out what the issue was.

News flash: the sigma was actually so close a Glock clone that the Glock corporation took S&W to court for patent infringement, and won. So if the argument AGAINST the sigma/SD/SDVE is that it is a poor design - then you are making the same statement about the Glock. If the argument being made is that the sigma/SD/SDVE is poorly made, than you're directly insulting Smith and Wesson and essentially saying they have low standards for manufacturing. Generally speaking I think most people would disagree with that statement. I read quite a few comments about the smegma and the landbasting of the entire SD line up along with it: I haven't heard any sensible arguments as to why it's bad. The one thing I have seen on here was a lot of people making remarks, who have never actually -held- an example of what they were speaking about.

The Current incarnation of the sigmna, the SD# VE series is simply put: a Glock Clone. Arguing for or against it is arguing for or against the Glock. UNLESS - the argument is over whether or not it is a well made clone. Sorry to point out the elephant in the room - but it was ruining the carpet.Another little something I'd like to point out: "Glock Perfection" has been modified several times. We're now on the 4th generation - so it's not like the Glock hasn't undergone model changes over the years. Sigma.... SD.... SD VE... Think of them as "generations."


Before I forget, I've done a lot of research. Lot of web surfing, checking, re-checking. Following up on different leads and sources. Spoke to several people. After much deliberation I am completely confident in going on record and making the following statement: josei710 has the best avatar in all of the internet.

 

[jarhead1775usmc]

If I may make a clarification: the "smegma" (sigma) and the SD# / SD# VE are all accurately stated as being Glock Clones. Nothing more grand or horrible than that. I really don't comprehend the outright contestation over them. I don't own one but I have done work on one. If the particular example of the sigma in .40 S&W was any indicator of the rest of the sigma series than they're good guns with horrible triggers. I removed an unnecessary spring and used an indian sharpening stone (one I use for hss lathe bits) to ;polish some of the fire control parts. After that the trigger pull was under 6 pounds and very similar to a stock glock or springfield xd. I have a test target at 10 yards (30 foot indoor range) with same gun standing unsupported entire magazine in a 2 inch group. I'm a gunsmith - not a professional shooter.

I just don't see what the problem is. It's a glock clone, ok: so it's not an actual Glock, ok - and? This is where I lose sight of the issue. It's not like Glock is the first firearm to have a clone. How many company manufacture the 1911 again? God only knows how many different companies make AR-15's these days. It's not like anyone's really raising hellfire that if you don't buy a genuine Colt then it's not a true 1911. I don't hear too many people saying that if it's not an AR-15 made by Colt - then it's not worth buying.

If I can buy a S&W SD9 VE new in box for the same price that I can buy a *used* Glock 17, and have the benefit of Smith and Wesson's LIFETIME warranty, then ... what's the problem?

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/83125
$301.40
$20 S&H
$22 transfer fee at my local gunshop

$343.40. Not including tax that I'm not aware of. Find me a Glock 17 for that price, any gen. You won't - and this pistol will still have a lifetime warranty from smith and wesson.

Now, I don't own a sigma, Sd or SD VE, nor do I intend to. I prefer DA/SA steel guns like like Sig's and CZ-75's. I generally speaking don't like striker fired guns - I just wanted to take a few moments to inject a nice reality check into this thread. I read 4 pages of ranting and raving about the "smegma" and was left scratching my head trying to figure out what the issue was.

News flash: the sigma was actually so close a Glock clone that the Glock corporation took S&W to court for patent infringement, and won. So if the argument AGAINST the sigma/SD/SDVE is that it is a poor design - then you are making the same statement about the Glock. If the argument being made is that the sigma/SD/SDVE is poorly made, than you're directly insulting Smith and Wesson and essentially saying they have low standards for manufacturing. Generally speaking I think most people would disagree with that statement. I read quite a few comments about the smegma and the landbasting of the entire SD line up along with it: I haven't heard any sensible arguments as to why it's bad. The one thing I have seen on here was a lot of people making remarks, who have never actually -held- an example of what they were speaking about.

The Current incarnation of the sigmna, the SD# VE series is simply put: a Glock Clone. Arguing for or against it is arguing for or against the Glock. UNLESS - the argument is over whether or not it is a well made clone. Sorry to point out the elephant in the room - but it was ruining the carpet.Another little something I'd like to point out: "Glock Perfection" has been modified several times. We're now on the 4th generation - so it's not like the Glock hasn't undergone model changes over the years. Sigma.... SD.... SD VE... Think of them as "generations."


Before I forget, I've done a lot of research. Lot of web surfing, checking, re-checking. Following up on different leads and sources. Spoke to several people. After much deliberation I am completely confident in going on record and making the following statement: josei710 has the best avatar in all of the internet.

THIS.

Does it go "bang" on demand? Yes. Does it hit its target with accuracy relative to the shooter's abilities? Yes. Did it save $x.xx to someone looking to not spend a lot of money? Yes. Win in my book. It cost me $3.50 for a striker spring and a half hour of tinkering to get the trigger to an acceptable weight. Would I carry it? Probably not as I trust and train more with my M&P45 (1500 rds and counting, no FTE/FTF that were gun related).

Besides... worse case scenario, you have another gun and the wife gets another pair of shoes.

 

[Baikal49]

If I may make a clarification: the "smegma" (sigma) and the SD# / SD# VE are all accurately stated as being Glock Clones. Nothing more grand or horrible than that. I really don't comprehend the outright contestation over them. I don't own one but I have done work on one. If the particular example of the sigma in .40 S&W was any indicator of the rest of the sigma series than they're good guns with horrible triggers. I removed an unnecessary spring and used an indian sharpening stone (one I use for hss lathe bits) to ;polish some of the fire control parts. After that the trigger pull was under 6 pounds and very similar to a stock glock or springfield xd. I have a test target at 10 yards (30 foot indoor range) with same gun standing unsupported entire magazine in a 2 inch group. I'm a gunsmith - not a professional shooter.

I just don't see what the problem is. It's a glock clone, ok: so it's not an actual Glock, ok - and? This is where I lose sight of the issue. It's not like Glock is the first firearm to have a clone. How many company manufacture the 1911 again? God only knows how many different companies make AR-15's these days. It's not like anyone's really raising hellfire that if you don't buy a genuine Colt then it's not a true 1911. I don't hear too many people saying that if it's not an AR-15 made by Colt - then it's not worth buying.

If I can buy a S&W SD9 VE new in box for the same price that I can buy a *used* Glock 17, and have the benefit of Smith and Wesson's LIFETIME warranty, then ... what's the problem?

http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/83125
$301.40
$20 S&H
$22 transfer fee at my local gunshop

$343.40. Not including tax that I'm not aware of. Find me a Glock 17 for that price, any gen. You won't - and this pistol will still have a lifetime warranty from smith and wesson.

Now, I don't own a sigma, Sd or SD VE, nor do I intend to. I prefer DA/SA steel guns like like Sig's and CZ-75's. I generally speaking don't like striker fired guns - I just wanted to take a few moments to inject a nice reality check into this thread. I read 4 pages of ranting and raving about the "smegma" and was left scratching my head trying to figure out what the issue was.

News flash: the sigma was actually so close a Glock clone that the Glock corporation took S&W to court for patent infringement, and won. So if the argument AGAINST the sigma/SD/SDVE is that it is a poor design - then you are making the same statement about the Glock. If the argument being made is that the sigma/SD/SDVE is poorly made, than you're directly insulting Smith and Wesson and essentially saying they have low standards for manufacturing. Generally speaking I think most people would disagree with that statement. I read quite a few comments about the smegma and the landbasting of the entire SD line up along with it: I haven't heard any sensible arguments as to why it's bad. The one thing I have seen on here was a lot of people making remarks, who have never actually -held- an example of what they were speaking about.

The Current incarnation of the sigmna, the SD# VE series is simply put: a Glock Clone. Arguing for or against it is arguing for or against the Glock. UNLESS - the argument is over whether or not it is a well made clone. Sorry to point out the elephant in the room - but it was ruining the carpet.Another little something I'd like to point out: "Glock Perfection" has been modified several times. We're now on the 4th generation - so it's not like the Glock hasn't undergone model changes over the years. Sigma.... SD.... SD VE... Think of them as "generations."


Before I forget, I've done a lot of research. Lot of web surfing, checking, re-checking. Following up on different leads and sources. Spoke to several people. After much deliberation I am completely confident in going on record and making the following statement: josei710 has the best avatar in all of the internet.

Thank you for a lot of good factual information.

 

[drgrant]

The Current incarnation of the sigmna, the SD# VE series is simply put: a Glock Clone. Arguing for or against it is arguing for or against the Glock.

A Sigma is a Glock clone in the way that some BMW 330's magically becomes an M3 by changing the badge on the trunk lid.

Obviously the guns share design features, but they're still different from one another.

So next thing you're going to tell us the Ruger SR9 is a Glock clone? Yes, by looking at it you would think that, but it's still different enough that it performs differently. It takes different magazines, has a safety, and has a different geometry between the fire control parts. I suspect the Sigma is very similar in this regard. If it wasn't that different, then people would be just throwing Glock fire control parts in their Sigmas to get rid of the shitty trigger pull.

UNLESS - the argument is over whether or not it is a well made clone.

Yeah, but we can't call it a clone unless it is really one. A Sigma doesn't take glock mags. Strike 1. It obviously has a different fire control group, or it is different enough to **** up the trigger pull. Strike 2. Many of the parts are not common between the two. Otherwise people would use Glock parts to un**** the gun. Strike 3. Sure the barrels are the same dimensions (eg vs the G17/G22) and the designs are very similar- similar enough for Glock to sue them, but saying it's a clone is being disingenuous. It's like saying that the Taurus PT92 is a Beretta 92 Clone. Yeah, one is based off the other, but it isn't a true"clone". A clone to me is like seeing a FEG Hi-Power or something like that, which takes the same magazines and has parts commonality. THAT is a clone. A Norinco 1911 is a 1911 Clone. A Sigma, really isn't a clone of anything- it's a piece of crap based off of the Glock design.

I realize I'm being pedantic here, but if the Sigma was really a Glock clone, it wouldn't be such a piece of crap, and the reputation would be a lot better than it is. The Sigma isn't some kind of undiscovered gem kind of gun, like a CZ or a Dan Wesson product. (eg, a great gun not popular because of poor marketing) It's simply a low cost turd that occupies a corner of S&W's catalog. ) Case in point- back when the 3rd gens were still around being sold new, they were still considered a way more premium gun than a Sigma.

If I can buy a S&W SD9 VE new in box for the same price that I can buy a *used* Glock 17, and have the benefit of Smith and Wesson's LIFETIME warranty, then ... what's the problem?

So a warranty magically makes the gun's design suck less? That's news to me.

Lots of companies back up their product pretty well. In the gun industry you might as well be telling us the
sky is blue. Ruger and other companies back their products to almost the same degree. Every Glock I've
ever sent down to Glock was fixed or updated for only the shipping/handling fee of the shop that took care
of it for me.

Another little something I'd like to point out: "Glock Perfection" has been modified several times. We're now on the 4th generation - so it's not like the Glock hasn't undergone model changes over the years.

Most of that stuff is cosmetic/ergonomic changes more than anything else. I'd still take a 10+ year old Glock over a Sigma made yesterday.

Sigma.... SD.... SD VE... Think of them as "generations."

I prefer think of them as "Turd" and "Frosted Turd" respectively. I just don't understand the allure of these guns when there is a lot of better stuff out there.

-Mike

 

[Madball13]

THIS.

Does it go "bang" on demand? Yes. Does it hit its target with accuracy relative to the shooter's abilities? Yes. Did it save $x.xx to someone looking to not spend a lot of money? Yes. Win in my book. It cost me $3.50 for a striker spring and a half hour of tinkering to get the trigger to an acceptable weight. Would I carry it? Probably not as I trust and train more with my M&P45 (1500 rds and counting, no FTE/FTF that were gun related).

Besides... worse case scenario, you have another gun and the wife gets another pair of shoes.

Mike, here is the reason for the allure, low expectations, low disappointment.

 

[jarhead1775usmc]

Exactly.

Sent from my PC36100 using Tapatalk 2

 

[drgrant]

Mike, here is the reason for the allure, low expectations, low disappointment.

I guess, I just don't see the point of the gun. There are a lot of other cheap guns that I think are better. I suppose it's still a hell of a lot better than tauruses and hi points, but doesn't take much to beat those.

-Mike

 

[drunkensobriety]

meh.

"Obviously the guns share design features, but they're still different from one another. "

Than you may want to wage that argument against Glock, as they took S&W to court over the similarities. The case was settled out of court in 1997, with S&W agreeing to make alterations to the Sigma design and pay an undisclosed amount to Glock. So if the all knowing and all powerful drgrant says so: than you may want to call up Smith and Wesson and start giving them legal council over reopening the case and challenging the settlement. Tell them you'd like to testify in open court on the public record as an expert witness, on the basis that you've seen a lot of guns in your time.

"So next thing you're going to tell us the Ruger SR9 is a Glock clone? Yes, by looking at it you would think that, but it's still different enough that it performs differently. It takes different magazines, has a safety, and has a different geometry between the fire control parts. I suspect the Sigma is very similar in this regard. If it wasn't that different, then people would be just throwing Glock fire control parts in their Sigmas to get rid of the shitty trigger pull. "

"Yeah, but we can't call it a clone unless it is really one. A Sigma doesn't take glock mags. Strike 1. It obviously has a different fire control group, or it is different enough to **** up the trigger pull. Strike 2. Many of the parts are not common between the two. Otherwise people would use Glock parts to un**** the gun. Strike 3. Sure the barrels are the same dimensions (eg vs the G17/G22) and the designs are very similar- similar enough for Glock to sue them, but saying it's a clone is being disingenuous. It's like saying that the Taurus PT92 is a Beretta 92 Clone. Yeah, one is based off the other, but it isn't a true"clone". A clone to me is like seeing a FEG Hi-Power or something like that, which takes the same magazines and has parts commonality. THAT is a clone. A Norinco 1911 is a 1911 Clone. A Sigma, really isn't a clone of anything- it's a piece of crap based off of the Glock design. "

Right - because the 1903 Springfield -ISN'T- a Mauser 98 clone. The fire control groups can't swap parts, the bolts can't be interchanged, the bolt has different locking lugs, there's extra safeties that affect how you load rounds into the magazine, different floor plate latch, different safety, different style front sight and oh wait...

That's right, Mauser took the united states government to international court over patent infringement for the 1903 springfield: and won. The united states, including according our own federal courts demanded that we pay royalties to the Mauser company for the production of the 1903 springfield. Fortunately Germany was defeated in WWI and we paid nothing due to the war reparations.


Point of contention about the Trigger: do a little research about the Glocks used by the NYPD and other police forces around the country. Many of them have specialized triggers which have a dramatically increased trigger weight. 12 pound trigger pulls because of added tension connector bars. The NY-2 trigger module. So glock have police pistols with heavy trigger pulls and S&W makes a cheaper to produce clone of the same gun, which comes with - lookie there: a trigger pull about the same weight as that of a glock with the NY-2 trigger module. I wonder what S&W may have been going for.... Maybe, lets use deductive reasoning, just maybe - they wanted to sell the sigma series to police stations as a cost affective alternative to the glock....

I don't necessarily think the dots are all that hard to connect. Plus the SD series doesn't even have the trigger pull that the earlier sigma series had. So the point is moot. Doing the evil monkey finger pointing at the sigma trigger doesn't come into play because the SD series doesn't even have it. You're arguing over something that no longer exists - and stating it as though it's current information. The SD VE series comes with a 4.5-5.5 trigger pull. If you literally get one which is significantly heavier - you can send it to smith and wesson for repair and they'll fix it for you so it is standard pull weight.

" but if the Sigma was really a Glock clone, it wouldn't be such a piece of crap"
(*)" It's simply a low cost turd that occupies a corner of S&W's catalog."
"I prefer think of them as "Turd" and "Frosted Turd" respectively."

Referring to the asterisk in parentheses: no, that's a lie. The sigma does not occupy a corner of S&W's catalog. they no longer produce the sigma.

(A)So you yourself have handled a Sigma, shot a few hundred rounds through and experienced all kinds of jams? (Probably not).

(B)Someone you personally know and trust, been over at his house for BBQ, attended his little girl's recital handled one and had a lot of problems with it feeding or cycling and found it couldn't hit the broad side of a barn? (probably not).

(C)You met someone on the firing line who couldn't get one to function correctly and you personally were there to make sure he wasn't limp wristing or using cheap surplus or steel cased ammo to make sure it was a genuine mechanical error in the weapon? (Probably not)


Who - What - When - Where - Why.

Who told you to it was a piece of crap?
What makes it a piece of crap?
When was the model they fired made? Actual sigma or new SD VE?
Where did this information about it being a piece of crap come from? A reliable source?
Why do you say it's a piece of crap?


I don't want to hear someone try to tell me what's what because they say so. I want to hear an argument with detailed first hand information about -why- they have formed an opinion on something. Until someone is either there to witness first hand, or handles it them self - it's rhetoric. I personally put 200 rounds through a Smith and Wesson Sigma .40 after I did a trigger job on it to ensure that it would pass disconnector safety checks, which it did with flying colors. It also didn't jam, hang up or bobble at all even though I was shooting ala walmart purchased steel cased tulammo. However - you never know, maybe, just maybe, I got my hands on a good one, and the rest are all crappy turds, unlikely but you know - it just might have happened.

In my opinion a gun that will eat steel cased ammunition without faltering probably isn't going to anytime soon. Reason being, obturation. Chambers cut for brass cased ammunition have looser tolerances than those cut for steel cased ammunition. Steel casing obturate less during the firing sequence. Due to this, steel cased ammo in a gun barrel made for brass casing will not completely seal the chamber during the ignition process, which allows for a much higher degree of carbon fouling to built up in the chamber. When this happens it's a bit like a dirty AR-15, you'll get failures to extract and failures to feed due to the sticky chamber walls.

So anytime you really want to test reliability in a firearm: feed it some steel cased stuff. See how long it'll go before you start having stoppages. I wasn't testing the sigma specifically for reliability - or else I'd of fired 500 rounds - I was testing to make sure it wouldn't run off and slam fire during use. I had polished the sear surfaces to get rid of the grittiness during trigger pull. Still long DA due to the mile and a half of sear engagement surface, but smoothed up very nicely.

 

[drgrant]

Than you may want to wage that argument against Glock, as they took S&W to court over the similarities. The case was settled out of court in 1997, with S&W agreeing to make alterations to the Sigma design and pay an undisclosed amount to Glock. So if the all knowing and all powerful drgrant says so: than you may want to call up Smith and Wesson and start giving them legal council over reopening the case and challenging the settlement. Tell them you'd like to testify in open court on the public record as an expert witness, on the basis that you've seen a lot of guns in your time.

I never said that Glock had no legal claims against them.

Having a clone and claiming patent infringement are two different things. Fun example- An iPhone and a Droid device
are obviously way different, but Apple is still taking Samsung to court over some presumed infringement. That doesn't
mean that the droid phone they made is a clone of an iPhone.

Right - because the 1903 Springfield -ISN'T- a Mauser 98 clone. The fire control groups can't swap parts.....

Sorry, this is my fault for starting a semantics argument. Ok it is a clone, whatever, you win, have it your way, it's burger king.

Maybe, lets use deductive reasoning, just maybe - they wanted to sell the sigma series to police stations as a cost affective alternative to the glock....

So you're saying because Glock makes a shitty trigger as an option that S&W would install it by default to chase a contract in a niche market? (how many PDs do stuff like NYPD? probably not a lot. )

I agree with much of what you're saying but this part is laughable. You were doing good when you stuck with the facts.

I don't necessarily think the dots are all that hard to connect. Plus the SD series doesn't even have the trigger pull that the earlier sigma series had. So the point is moot. Doing the evil monkey finger pointing at the sigma trigger doesn't come into play because the SD series doesn't even have it. You're arguing over something that no longer exists - and stating it as though it's current information. The SD VE series comes with a 4.5-5.5 trigger pull.

Have you actually put a pull gauge on them? The SD I tried was nowhere near that light, it more reminded me of the scratchy M&P default free state trigger.

Referring to the asterisk in parentheses: no, that's a lie. The sigma does not occupy a corner of S&W's catalog. they no longer produce the sigma.

Got me on that one, they still produce the SD though, which is still a Sigma. Albeit with a somewhat better trigger.

(A)So you yourself have handled a Sigma, shot a few hundred rounds through and experienced all kinds of jams? (Probably not).

Yes, I have fired a few of them. One of them was a piece of crap. I've seen others **** up on the line, too. I did fire one that worked properly, but trigger was terrible. I also fired an SD that seemed to be passable, but only got to run a mag or through two it and not really beat on the gun. I've lost track of the number of people who have come on here bitching about the trigger. (mostly on the old one, obviously) I've also lost track of the people I've run into that had effed up sigmas. Even given that, they're probably still better on average than most of the junk class guns.

I don't want to hear someone try to tell me what's what because they say so. I want to hear an argument with detailed first hand information about -why- they have formed an opinion on something. Until someone is either there to witness first hand, or handles it them self - it's rhetoric.

I've just heard enough credible reports of the guns ****ing up to not ever want to buy one, I'll just leave it at that. The sigma that FTFed right in my hands didn't help that impression, either.

If you think it's rhetoric, fine... that's understandable. People can believe whatever they want, I'm just trying to save them money and pain in the long run.

Or at a minimum, I'd suggest the OP at least go out and try one before they buy it. With this class of gun live firing a used one before purchase is probably your safest bet. My point was that I'm of the opinion that there are better guns in this price class.

-Mike

 

[whatluck]

The Ruger's a nice piece but I bought this for $329 and it came with two mags:

IMO, it's a superior firearm compared to the Ruger.

Dude, you beat me to it.

One of the best SA pulls on any auto I've ever fired, and my CS9 is one of my favorite guns.

 

[M1911]

(A)So you yourself have handled a Sigma, shot a few hundred rounds through and experienced all kinds of jams? (Probably not).

Ask LenS about the .40 Sigma that he had. It simply would not run, despite multiple trips back to S&W. He gave up on it. And he certainly isn't alone in having a Sigma that didn't work.