Running out of Ammo in Private Citizen Self-Defense Shootings?

If you ever find yourself in a situation where a mass shooter is going nuts with an AR, I wouldn't expect a long exchange between you with your ccw and him going well for you. Your window to stop/slow him down will be short if it even exists and your main concern should be to get the hell out of there.

Something like a G19 with 15rd is about as much as I'll carry. Anything more than that is uncomfortable which is no bueno. Besides, if you're involved in a situation where more than that is required, you're probably ****ed unless you're john wick.

Still, I wouldn't carry less than 8.
 
If you ever find yourself in a situation where a mass shooter is going nuts with an AR, I wouldn't expect a long exchange between you with your ccw and him going well for you. Your window to stop/slow him down will be short if it even exists and your main concern should be to get the hell out of there.

Something like a G19 with 15rd is about as much as I'll carry. Anything more than that is uncomfortable which is no bueno. Besides, if you're involved in a situation where more than that is required, you're probably ****ed unless you're john wick.

Still, I wouldn't carry less than 8.

So many of them commit suicide the second they are challenged. Inside a building i would move to close with and destroy a kid like adam lanza with his shitty bushmaster armed with a g19 and spare mags if i had to.
 
If you ever find yourself in a situation where a mass shooter is going nuts with an AR, I wouldn't expect a long exchange between you with your ccw and him going well for you. Your window to stop/slow him down will be short if it even exists and your main concern should be to get the hell out of there.

Something like a G19 with 15rd is about as much as I'll carry. Anything more than that is uncomfortable which is no bueno. Besides, if you're involved in a situation where more than that is required, you're probably ****ed unless you're john wick.

Still, I wouldn't carry less than 8.

The only case I can think of was one of the "Draw Mohammad" protests in Garland, Texas. Two ISIS terrorists, with AR pattern rifles, attempted to storm the building during the session and first confronted a police officer and an unarmed security guard. The officer was armed only with a high-capacity, department-issued handgun, and returned fire, injuring both terrorists.

The terrorists retreated and were eventually killed by responding SWAT officers. But you have to give credit to the initial officer for repelling them initially.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtis_Culwell_Center_attack

So training does account for something.
 
If take out the delusional scenario of multiple terrorist armed with belt fed machine guns. Then my little 9mm Ruger LCR with a whole five shots should be more than enough for 99.99 percent of the situations we might encounter at this point in time here in MA.[wink]

Because unless you carry around a ruck sack with a Tavor and a dozen 30 round standard capacity magazines in it.
Lets face it your totally unprepared for these scenario's anyways![grin]
 
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If take out the delusional scenario of multiple terrorist armed with belt fed machine guns. Then my little 9mm Ruger LCR with a whole five shots should be more than enough for 99.99 percent of the situations we might encounter at this point in time here in MA.[wink]

Because unless you carry around a ruck sack full of 30 round magazines and an AR-15 broken down in two halves. Lets face it your totally unprepared for these scenario's anyways![grin]


Following your logic, why carry a gun at all?
 
If take out the delusional scenario of multiple terrorist armed with belt fed machine guns. Then my little 9mm Ruger LCR with a whole five shots should be more than enough for 99.99 percent of the situations we might encounter at this point in time here in MA.

There's nothing delusional about a scenario involving bunch of terrorists whacking a school in the US with AKs, belt bombs, or whatever. That's going to happen eventually, it's only a matter of time. Look at what happened in Mumbai. The only thing stopping it from happening here is logistics for the terrorists.

About the only thing delusional is some peoples perception of the odds of an individual, actually encountering it. That said, I would never pretend to speak for anyone else on their risk assessments. I don't get too welled up about "terrorists" because I don't work/hang out in and around typical schools, shopping malls, and other likely squishy-soft targets. If I did I might look at it differently. Even then, there are almost 100,000 public schools in the US, and about 1000 enclosed shopping malls (although this number is dropping like a rock). IMHO those POSes are more likely to go for a school because of the memetic value. A full retard- tom clancy esque version of such an attack might be multiple schools at once.

-Mike
 
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There's nothing delusional about a scenario involving bunch of terrorists whacking a school in the US with AKs, belt bombs, or whatever. That's going to happen eventually, it's only a matter of time. Look at what happened in Mumbai. The only thing stopping it from happening here is logistics for the terrorists.

About the only thing delusional is some peoples perception of the odds of an individual, actually encountering it. That said, I would never pretend to speak for anyone else on their risk assessments. I don't get too welled up about "terrorists" because I don't work/hang out in and around typical schools, shopping malls, and other likely squishy-soft targets. If I did I might look at it differently. Even then, there are almost 100,000 public schools in the US, and about 1000 enclosed shopping malls (although this number is dropping like a rock).

-Mike


You could probably cross reference schools with gun laws, attendance, security, and access in order to arrive at a couple dozen likely targets.
 
Sure, that's a valid point.

But (playing devil's advocate here) would they really have been any worse off if they had a stack of 10 round magazines?

Don't get me wrong, I like full capacity magazines enough to hoard them, and I think magazine capacity limits are ineffective at reducing violent crime, and only criminalize otherwise lawful (and harmless) behavior. (i.e., really, really stupid)

But it's important to know and understand (the weaknesses in) the other side's arguments.

What was needed was the RIGHT tool for the job - there's a reason cops had 12-gauge pump shotguns in their cruisers with 3" Magnum 00 Buckshot loaded.....crowd control. Most didn't even have to fire a shot, just work the pump and chamber a round - 'class dismissed'!
 
Following your logic, why carry a gun at all?

I don't everyday.
I do when it may be that day when I have a .001 percent feeling it might come in handy.

See this thread is just like a 9mm vs 45 ACP thread.
When everyone knows a 50 BMG is stronger and that your a pussy if you don't carry one.
It ends up having nothing to do with the caliber of the round. But who has the biggest gun in their pants!

So unless you walk around with a 420 round ammo can of 5.56mm and a rifle then your unprepared according to the internet!

Then some other interwebs warrior will say one is none and two is one. So you have to carry around 840 rounds of 5.56mm and two rifles..[rofl]

Like we all roll around in the A-Team van looking for a terrorist to stop![smile]

Sorry, I ain't that paranoid!
 
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A person can't draw from pocket carry while sitting down.
We spend a good portion of our lives seated; driving, working and eating at a table.
In order to draw you have to stand up first or contort your body into some sort of position and there might not be room to do so.
Additionally, drawing from pocket carry while driving and seat-belted adds to the difficulty.
Drawing from pocket carry while running is problematic.

Everyone should pay attention to this.
 
Following your logic, why carry a gun at all?
Are you the devil's advocate or his twin brother? [laugh]

It's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

I see nothing wrong with a 5-shot LCR. The whole point of EDC is to carry consistently, no matter your wardrobe.
 
I don't everyday.
I do when it may be that day when I have a .001 percent feeling it might come in handy.

See this thread is just like a 9mm vs 45 ACP thread.
When everyone knows a 50 BMG is stronger and that your a pussy if you don't carry one.
It ends up having nothing to do with the caliber of the round. But who has the biggest gun in their pants!

So unless you walk around with a 420 round ammo can of 5.56mm and a rifle then your unprepared according to the internet!

Then some other interwebs warrior will say one is none and two is one. So you have to carry around 840 rounds of 5.56mm and two rifles..[rofl]

Like we all roll around in the A-Team van looking for a terrorist to stop![smile]

Sorry, I ain't that paranoid!

its not that simple, this thread isn't like a 45 vs 9mm thread, this thread is people who formulate their methodology based off of "what if this happened to me?" vs people who formulate methodology based off of "that will never happen to me." Ever hear people who get get attacked by sharks, struck by lightning, or shot up in a terrorist attack, something you are statistically almost guaranteed will never happen to them say "I never thought it would happen to me..."?

Im not paranoid, a few days ago I worked within 300 yards of a school that had a mass shooting in it, tell me if somebody had been in my position when it happened that they couldn't have made a difference with the right tools. There's nothing wrong with being prepared if it isn't outside the realm of possibility.
 
Are you the devil's advocate or his twin brother? [laugh]

Hey! Even when playing Devil's Advocate I never said, "don't bother to carry", Not even close.

I was talking specifically about the dumb-ass magazine capacity restriction laws.
 
If there was a school shooting and you were 300 yards away.

1: How would you know where the shots were coming from?
2:Was it the police shooting a suspect with something like a knife at the school?
3:If you showed up how would you enter the school all the while letting everyone know your there to help?
4:More than likely you would be told by the police "Thank you for the concern, but please leave we have a job to do!".
5:Unless you were inside the school while it happened and were already carrying a firearm. You might not be able to get inside the school when it was locked down.
6:There would be a high likely hood that you would be shot by responding officers!
7:You will do as instructed by the Police as they are in charge or you will be arrested or shot for interfering with their duties!
8:So you stop the murderer before the police arrive and they take control of the situation. Good Luck with that!
9: You run in with a pistol drawn and they will call the police and say we now have two active shooters!

Sorry, I'm a realist. I don't imagine what may be. But what I can realistically do!
 
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If there was a school shooting and you were 300 yards away.

1: How would you know where the shots were coming from?
Situation dependent, adam lanza walked to the front door of the school and shot out the security glass, is it not possible you could see this happen and choose to react based on that?

2:Was it the police shooting a suspect with something like a knife at the school?
What if it wasn't? What if you saw the guy shoot out the safety glass like I said above and enter the building?
3:If you showed up how would you enter the school all the while letting everyone know your there to help?
Who cares? Multiple courses teach response to active shooter situations, they usually tell you to announce who you are and what youre doing to someone on your way in. They don't need to know youre there to help.
4:More than likely you would be told by the police "Thank you for the concern, but please leave we have a job to do!".
We're talking about immediately responding to an event you see happen, not just running into a situation when there is LE already there.
5:Unless you were inside the school while it happened and were already carrying a firearm. You might not be able to get inside the school when it was locked down.
Maybe, maybe not?
6:There would be a high likely hood that you would be shot by responding officers!
Sure, that might be a factor to you, to others saving innocent lives might be more important to them.
7:You will do as instructed by the Police as they are in charge or you will be arrested or shot for interfering with their duties!
Again, we are talking about the immediate moments before the cops show up/get called
8:So you stop the murderer before the police arrive and they take control of the situation. Good Luck with that!
Good luck with what?
9: You run in with a pistol drawn and they will call the police and say we now have two active shooters!
So what? There are reports of multiple gunmen at almost all of these shootings.
Sorry, I'm a realist. I don't imagine what may be. But what I can realistically do!

Congrats on being a realist, I also am a realist, im not talking about being some mall ninja hero sheepdog faggot running into something after the cops are there, once they show up its entirely their gig. This entire conversation was started around "Are there any cases of civilians running out of ammo in gunfights?" My original answer was no, but we live in a changing world where terrorist attacks and active shooter situations happen and that that is why I carry a gun that is more tailored towards a real fight rather than shooting some mugger through your pajama pants pocket. After that this whole thread devolved into people who are butthurt because I hated on their stupid ****ing pocket pistols coming at me because Im as prepared as I can be for both scenarios.

Would it make any difference to you if I told you Im a cop? If an off duty cop and ran into a school he saw about to get shot up would you still be talking shit? No you wouldn't. So whats the difference?
 
Some people just like to self justify doing nothing to help others.

Personally, if I saw something unfold in front of me and I thought I could help a person in danger, I would.


My first impulse and responsibility is self preservation. I always carry 11 + 10 though that will change if I start driving to work.
 
Some people just like to self justify doing nothing to help others.

Personally, if I saw something unfold in front of me and I thought I could help a person in danger, I would.

Probably couldnt run 300 yards without going into cardiac arrest.

The "all ill ever need" argument is such bullshit. If the worst case scenario you could face was a drunk bum or a mugger you should join a dojo and train BJJ so you could defend yourself without killing somebody. But that would require physical exertion, training, and risk. So these dudes carry pocket guns and make excuses.
 
Sorry, I don't carry a police scanner on me.
I can't tell the difference at 100 yards away of what someone is doing.
The last thing I need is to be jailed in MA for trying to help and pay a lawyer out of my pocket.
If your a police officer you would get treated differently at the scene than I would.
Your above the law and have protections we as mere peasants could only dream of!

So why would I be within eye sight of a school while carrying a firearm?
If I was driving past I wouldn't notice with my eyes or hear anything out of the ordinary.

I don't have a hero complex. I believe that in order for more people to realize that they should be armed. That the world needs bad things that are out of my control to happen to other people!

400,000 people in MA have a LTC. 3000 showed up to protest the Ag's actions. Were you there?
Of those 3000 how many would have gone into the school to try to stop a killer like Adam Lanza?
It's easy to say we all would. But people that own firearms wouldn't even show up to a peaceful demonstration!

Our 2nd amendment rights are being beaten to death here in MA. Where are the police when we need their support?
It seems that their job is more important than protecting it's citizens rights to protect themselves.

Flame all you want. But when the head of the MA Chief of Police Association is standing behind the AG when she gave her 7/20 notice I lost all respect for their authority!

Here is what I would be charged with if I entered a school and fired a shot here in MA while trying to save a life.
1: Unlawful possession of a firearm in a Gun Free Zone.
2: Discharging a firearm within 500' of a building.
3: When the police did arrive and I was ordered to lay down my firearm. I would be charged with improper storage according to MA law.
4:With murder. Because I should have fled according to MA law!

See we live in a different world than a police officer. Which we are reminded of by how our state govt. and the police treat us in respect to protecting ourselves and owning firearms.

If you believe that all us pocket pistol guys should join a dojo. Than why do the police shoot so many unarmed people?
 
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In every case where there was another person that was able to stop a shooter such as at pearl Missisipi school http://www.davekopel.com/2A/OthWr/principal&gun.htm Appalachian law School http://rense.com/general19/schd.htm etc. none of them were shot by responding police. In every case I've heard of the shooting was over before the police arrived.

If there was a school shooting and you were 300 yards away.

1: How would you know where the shots were coming from?
2:Was it the police shooting a suspect with something like a knife at the school?
3:If you showed up how would you enter the school all the while letting everyone know your there to help?
4:More than likely you would be told by the police "Thank you for the concern, but please leave we have a job to do!".
5:Unless you were inside the school while it happened and were already carrying a firearm. You might not be able to get inside the school when it was locked down.
6:There would be a high likely hood that you would be shot by responding officers!
7:You will do as instructed by the Police as they are in charge or you will be arrested or shot for interfering with their duties!
8:So you stop the murderer before the police arrive and they take control of the situation. Good Luck with that!
9: You run in with a pistol drawn and they will call the police and say we now have two active shooters!

Sorry, I'm a realist. I don't imagine what may be. But what I can realistically do!
 
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In every case where there was another person that was able to stop a shooter such as at pearl Missisipi school,Appalachin law School etc. none of them were shot by responding police. In every case I've heard of the shooting was over before the police arrived.

this...

The "cops shooting you when they show up" thing is largely a piece of gnomish mysticism or similar bullshit, IMHO. Most of these things are long over, one way or the other, by the time the cops show up, unless they happen to already be there, by coincidence.

-Mike
 
400,000 people in MA have a LTC. 3000 showed up to protest the Ag's actions. Were you there?
Of those 3000 how many would have gone into the school to try to stop a killer like Adam Lanza?
It's easy to say we all would. But people that own firearms wouldn't even show up to a peaceful demonstration!

WAT?

Whachu talkin about willis? This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I smell some logical fallacies in there though, somewhere.

So, let me get this straight, you're trying to normalize statistics of attendance at an RKBA rally, with a random, spastic event like a mass shooting/mass casualty incident? As this is somehow the same group of people?



I thought I was the master of the shit analogies around here, but I have to take a bow, this one takes the cake.

-Mike
 
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In every case where there was another person that was able to stop a shooter such as at pearl Missisipi school http://www.davekopel.com/2A/OthWr/principal&gun.htm Appalachian law School http://rense.com/general19/schd.htm etc. none of them were shot by responding police. In every case I've heard of the shooting was over before the police arrived.

Show me a case here in MA.
We have so many laws here in regards to firearms that the other states don't.
We have police here arresting and searching peoples houses for not using a trigger lock.
You can be arrested here in MA for a 22LR spent shell casing in you car if you don't have a license.
Read all the laws on traveling here in MA with a firearm.
If your driving in your car and your pistol is in the back seat not locked up in a case. You will be charged with a storage violation.
Getting jammed up here in MA is the norm, not the exception!
Then we have the whole could you have fled thing that would be brought up in court when they are charging you with murder.
The police would confiscate your firearms and revoke your LTC for any self defense use here in MA.
 
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More importantly, since I thought I saw the sun for about 10 minutes today, chocolate, vanilla or swirl?

Let's see how many pages of arguments that MF leads to.
 
You have to consider the pros and cons based on your own situation, risk aversion, and so on. Some people have no problem going to bad neighborhoods unarmed, while others build underground bunkers.

Yes, more ammo is better. I said it before: no one has ever emerged from a gun fight wishing they had brought less ammo. If I could, I'd carry a rifle all the time but the cons outweigh the pros - the damn things are impossible for me to conceal and simply don't lend themselves to be carry pieces given my day-to-day movements and tasks.

Next up: my Glock 19. I carry it as much as I can. I shoot it reasonably well and it has 16 rounds. I can also conceal it. Great.

Problem is, sometimes I can't conceal it very easily. For example, I cannot run the risk of being "outed" at work so my situation requires the highest level of concealment, which, when I'm wearing a tucked-in button-down, means no IWB carry and, therefore, no Glock. That's a situation when I stick a snubnose in my pocket. Yes, it has plenty of downsides. However, given my own assessment of where I'm traveling, at what time, with whom, etc, I'm comfortable taking on the risk associated with those downsides. If you disagree, quite frankly IDGAF because it's not your choice to make - make your own decisions and carry whatever you want (or don't), as only you can assess what level of risk you're comfortable with.
 
WAT?

Whachu talkin about willis? This makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. I smell some logical fallacies in there though, somewhere.

So, let me get this straight, you're trying to normalize statistics of attendance at an RKBA rally, with a random, spastic event like a mass shooting/mass casualty incident? As this is somehow the same group of people?



I thought I was the master of the shit analogies around here, but I have to take a bow, this one takes the cake.

-Mike


I talked to many a firearm owner that said they were afraid to go due to being seen at that rally. That was their reason for not going.
Like they would have put themselves at any risk going into a school and facing someone![rofl]
 
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Show me a case here in MA.
We have so many laws here in regards to firearms that the other states don't.
We have police here arresting and searching peoples houses for not using a trigger lock.
You can be arrested here in MA for a 22LR spent shell casing in you car if you don't have a license.
Read all the laws on traveling here in MA with a firearm.
If your driving in your car and your pistol is in the back seat not locked up in case. You will be charged with a storage violation.
Getting jammed up here in MA is the norm not the exception!
Then we have the whole could you have fled thing that would be brought up in court when they are charging you with murder.
The police would confiscate your firearms and revoke your LTC for any self defense use here in MA.

Again, just like the previous post, you're diverting the argument by trying to drive off the race course into the weeds. This thread isn't about "MA legal stupidity".

Also, if MA law jaundices your view of defending yourself, or someone else, this badly, you should probably just leave your gun at home, because you'll probably get smoked thinking about whether or not you should act or not.

-Mike
 
I talked to many a firearm owner that said they were afraid to go due to being seen at that rally. That was their reason for not going.
Like they would have put themselves at any risk going into a school and facing someone![rofl]

That's a little clearer, but I still don't understand the comparison. That's like saying "you have X gun owners. Out of X, some percentage are unwilling to use a firearm in self defense." SO? Doesn't really change the question- EG, why should I change what I think, or what I would do- based on some % of the population making decisions that they should act a certain way, etc. One thing has nothing to do with the other.

-Mike
 
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