Running out of Ammo in Private Citizen Self-Defense Shootings?

[gamma19]

I've been researching this topic but can't find much in the way of any credible sources of a self-defense shooting that was botched in favor of the assailant because the victim ran out of ammunition. I've read some of Ayoob's work and he details several high profile cases of this happening to LEOs, sparking the transition for most PDs to go from revolvers to semi-autos. The only private citizen case that I can find is that of Lance Thomas, the LA watch store owner who was robbed by multiple armed assailants but survived because he kept three revolvers under the counter and therefore had enough ammo on tap to successfully repel the attack.

The reason I ask is because I've recently transitioned to carrying a 5 round revolver with one speed strip as my EDC. I'm plenty accurate with it, it carries light and conceals well, points and feels great in hand. But there's always the lingering thought in the back of mind that 5 rounds with an extra 5 might not be enough, and makes me want to go back to my Glock 19 plus spare mag. That said, I figure that the most common deadly force encounter I would most likely have outside the home would be some sort of attempted mugging or gas station robbery with one or two assailants, where my goal would be to look for an exit and get out, with engagement as an absolute last resort. Same thing if it was an active shooter situation. In my home though, my primary concern would be a home invasion with multiple assailants, and no practical or safe way out of the house. My home defense firearms in that case are the revolver in addition to semi-autos with extra mags on hand.

NES braintrust, what are your thoughts and opinions on this?

 

[MisterHappy]

Somewhere I once read, "If you need more than six shots to eliminate your enemies, you either are a bad shot, or have too many enemies."

 

[Hoon]

The average self defense shooting is 2 rounds fired.

Reloading in SD situations is VERY rare.

 

[milktree]

The average self defense shooting is 2 rounds fired.

Reloading in SD situations is VERY rare.

If this is the case, it's hard to argue that we need 15 or 17 round magazines for self defense.

 

[cockpitbob]

The average self defense shooting is 2 rounds fired.

Reloading in SD situations is VERY rare.

Interesting.
I wonder if that's because we're not cops and aren't in it to win the battle, but shoot to protect our lives. I know in MA, if we advance on the bad guy, or keep shooting when there's a clear opportunity to retreat, we're likely to be arrested.

 

[Frizzle Fry]

Never had to do it, but I like "more ammo, please" in the really worst cases.

Some ******* robs me at knife point or gunpoint, and he's probably getting a wallet - not a bullet - from me.

Meanwhile a crowd of angry whatevers decides to take over a few city blocks, starts throwing IEDs, swinging bats and flipping cars, I'm getting the **** out no matter how many rounds it takes. Small group of masked/armed/militant whatevers decides to start mowing down civilians, I do not intend to be one of those dead, or one of those interviewed later stating that I "hid under the table while the bad men killed the unarmed people a few feet away". That shit seems to be happening more and more lately, and while the odds are low, I spend too much time in places that tend to be targets.

 

[SKumar]

Ask the Koreans during the LA riots if 10 rounds was enough for them.

 

[Dadstoys]

That's one of those questions you can drive yourself nuts over if you dwell on it.
Your never going to know till the time comes and hopefully that's never.
Five shots is better than harsh language and 20 may not be near enough.
Carry what your comfortable with and hope you never need to find out.

 

[MaverickNH]

Overkill always works


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[headednorth]

Statistically, 5 rounds is more than enough. Reid Hendrichs likes to say, "If you use the whole mag, you'll be famous." He also carries a pistol and a back up pistol and spare mags, so go figure.

Carry whatever gives you peace of mind. I like my 10+1, plus a spare mag of 10. I'd like 15+1 + 15 even better. Statistically, I'll never have to even draw it, never mind worry about how many rounds I have on me, but better to have and not need...

I would think someone attempting to rob you at a gas station would tend to flee as soon as he sees youre armed and determined to use it if necessary. Why get in a gun fight with you when 99% of the people out there are unarmed? At home scenario sort of depends on who you are and what your circumstances are. Meaning, if they know you are a drug dealer, business owner, or keep a lot of cash lying around for whatever reason, they may come better prepared and expecting a fight. Genuine home invasions dont tend to happen to the average person, imo.

If some dipshit junkie picks your house at random looking to grab a few valuables and leave, then I'd expect him to flee as soon as he sees you for the same reason as the gas station guy.

So, imo, think about your worst case scenario (at home and out in the world), balance that with the odds of it coming to pass, and load up accordingly. Thats my opinion for what its worth.

 

[headednorth]

Just out of curiosity, what made you switch from the Glock to a revolver?

 

[gamma19]

Just out of curiosity, what made you switch from the Glock to a revolver?

I'm equally accurate and proficient WRT manual of arms with both, but the revolver wins out just slightly in terms of comfort of carry. The Glock always digs into my side when I'm sitting, regardless of the holster that I use. I used to not care about the lack of comfort (used to lug around a Ruger P90 in an IWB holster, now that was an uncomfortable carry gun), but over time I found that the comfort factor makes a difference in actually wanting to carry more, as opposed to leaving it at home.

Additionally, though not a factor in why I switched, I've run into quite a few non-gun folks, and even some gun folks AND a couple of police officers who believe that Glocks are illegal in MA. Not as in the AG/EOPS list stuff, but completely illegal for "civilians" to own, period. Again, one of those things that, to my knowledge, has never been used against a defendant in a self-defense shooting trial in MA, but why take the risk? Not being painted as a vigilante or wanna-be cop with one of those "killy, evil illegal Glocks" is one less thing to worry about, IMHO. Again though, not even a consideration as to why I switched, but more of an afterthought/shower thought.

 

[enbloc]

The average self defense shooting is 2 rounds fired...

If all I get is two...

 

[milktree]

Ask the Koreans during the LA riots if 10 rounds was enough for them.

Sure, that's a valid point.

But (playing devil's advocate here) would they really have been any worse off if they had a stack of 10 round magazines?

Don't get me wrong, I like full capacity magazines enough to hoard them, and I think magazine capacity limits are ineffective at reducing violent crime, and only criminalize otherwise lawful (and harmless) behavior. (i.e., really, really stupid)

But it's important to know and understand (the weaknesses in) the other side's arguments.

 

[sigfanboy13]

Carry whatever gives you peace of mind. I like my 10+1, plus a spare mag of 10. I'd like 15+1 + 15 even better. Statistically, I'll never have to even draw it, never mind worry about how many rounds I have on me, but better to have and not need...

I agree with carrying what gives you piece of mind; that's the most realistic answer. The numbers state you having to draw is fire more than 2 is infinitesimally small.
But everyone has heard that one story where the attacker was either jacked up on meth or was just one of those people who just downright refused to go down without eating the whole mag. If it only takes a spare mag or speedloader in your pocket to cover all the possible scenarios from bad to worse, why not?

 

[SKumar]

Sure, that's a valid point.

But (playing devil's advocate here) would they really have been any worse off if they had a stack of 10 round magazines?

Don't get me wrong, I like full capacity magazines enough to hoard them, and I think magazine capacity limits are ineffective at reducing violent crime, and only criminalize otherwise lawful (and harmless) behavior. (i.e., really, really stupid)

But it's important to know and understand (the weaknesses in) the other side's arguments.

https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=149_1433115107 10 rounds would've been sufficient, right? And if you run out, well, that's just bad luck isn't it?

 

[HiCap]

I believe the Miami FBI shooting in 1986 was a main reason to make the switch from revolvers to semi auto.

 

[Hoon]

Interesting.
I wonder if that's because we're not cops and aren't in it to win the battle, but shoot to protect our lives. I know in MA, if we advance on the bad guy, or keep shooting when there's a clear opportunity to retreat, we're likely to be arrested.

That's exactly it...combined with the fact that criminals will generally flee from an armed citizen because they're looking for a payout, not a gunfight.

I'm not saying more rounds aren't a very good thing to have, just that in an analysis of 450+ successful SD shootings, only two defenders reloaded, so statistically there's a very slim chance a high capacity firearm or a spare mag will be necessary.

That said, i typically have a spare mag.

 

[Cloverleaf Firearms Group]

I don't carry a spare magazine anymore. I don't discourage anyone from doing it, I just wear a belt full of shit all day and don't feel like I'm Batman when I'm not working. That's probably an awful reason, but that's my reason. I carry a G19 in an Eidolon, and a foursevens Quark click in left pocket. That's it.

Reloading in a LE pistol fight is a documented rarity, and I suspect the numbers are even lower for non-LE gunfights.

I did just order a neomag carrier for work (plain clothes details), as the reviews have been great. If it's that good, and comfortable, I may consider carrying a spare magazine off duty.

 

[wahsben]

It's better to have more than you need, than not enough of what you need.

 

[snax]

From videos ive seen, the bad guys are usually bad shots and have terrible discipline in terms of focusing on the target and aiming properly, especially if they are fired upon by the victim. They seem to point and shoot like in the movues and run out of ammo first

 

[allen-1]

I know a guy who took a load of buckshot to his belly and lived. I'm pretty sure it put him on the ground, but it didn't kill him.

This isn't some "friend of a friend story", I know him. At the time he was shot he was a good bit younger, a big guy, and in very good physical shape. Probably also cranked to the gills 'cause that was his lifestyle. 00 Buck is the most common and it's the equivalent of 9 .38 pellets I believe? He's got one hell of a set of scars, but he's still around.

So, the problem is that you never know who's coming at you. One shot might do it, or you might empty your mag and wish you had another.

I carry a spare mag both for the extra rounds and just in case Murphy decides it's time for a jam. Not very likely, in fact highly unlikely - but it's my life not a video game or a IDPA/USPSA match.

 

[Sprocket]

INSTRUCTOR: What is the difference between a "shooting"and a "gunfight"?

STUDENT: "Not sure."

INSTRUCTOR: You are reloading in a gun fight...

Prep accordingly - it's a very personal decision

Aware > reactionary

 

[cams]

Not trying to put you down when I say this, but not carrying something perfectly legal (your G19) because a few yahoos think it's illegal, makes absolutely no sense to me.

I understand it's strange times with our ****ed up AG, but legal is legal (for now).

I tend to carry as much as is comfortable depending on weather, the area I'll be in that day, clothing, etc, it changes to fit the environment.

Keep in mind that these active shootings, stabbings, and lone wolf terror attacks are happening more and more frequently and the next one could be within 10ft of you tomorrow. Or never. Personally I plan and train to never be a victim of anybodies ****ed up fantasies or carried out of anywhere without leaving a pile of empty brass behind me.

 

[Al-Jim19]

I find that it's just as easy 99% of the time to carry a gun and mag as it is to just carry a gun. Always a spare at 900 opposite my gun owb or 1200 right next to it when I go aiwb.

 

[ScottS]

If this is the case, it's hard to argue that we need 15 or 17 round magazines for self defense.

If you go by the law of averages, the average person will never be in a position to need a gun, so why carry one? Nor will the average person have need for a frontal airbag. So why are they mandated?

We don't prepare for the statistical average, or at least I don't. I plan for the most-plausible worst-case scenario for the situation at hand.

 

[AllaSnackbah]

in civilian defensive shootings its almost non-existent.

if your biggest concern is some kid trying to steal your wallet or play the knockout game carry a j-frame, if your biggest concern is getting in a gunfight, be it with some adam lanza type, some kind of terrorist thing you get stuck in the middle of, or whatever, carry something that doesn't suck for a gunfight, like a modern semi auto with reloads.

statistical assumptions will getcha killt on the skreets.

 

[4runner1443]

I'd be shocked if people carrying a revolver would actually be able to reload it in a fight under extreme stress. Unless you practice reloading under stress like in competition regularly I think reloading a revolver is unrealistic. So that leaves you with five shots then listening to click, click, click as you pull the trigger on empty chambers. If you want capacity and like revolvers I'd ditch the speed loader and carry a second revolver. A Glock 19 even with a neutered mag gives you 11 shots and maybe a chance to reload under stress of a fight if you practice reloading. The backup mag is more about the magazine being the most likely part of the firearm to fail then extra capacity.

 

[JayMcB]

I'm equally accurate and proficient WRT manual of arms with both, but the revolver wins out just slightly in terms of comfort of carry. The Glock always digs into my side when I'm sitting, regardless of the holster that I use. I used to not care about the lack of comfort (used to lug around a Ruger P90 in an IWB holster, now that was an uncomfortable carry gun), but over time I found that the comfort factor makes a difference in actually wanting to carry more, as opposed to leaving it at home.

Additionally, though not a factor in why I switched, I've run into quite a few non-gun folks, and even some gun folks AND a couple of police officers who believe that Glocks are illegal in MA. Not as in the AG/EOPS list stuff, but completely illegal for "civilians" to own, period. Again, one of those things that, to my knowledge, has never been used against a defendant in a self-defense shooting trial in MA, but why take the risk? Not being painted as a vigilante or wanna-be cop with one of those "killy, evil illegal Glocks" is one less thing to worry about, IMHO. Again though, not even a consideration as to why I switched, but more of an afterthought/shower thought.

If you're dumping your G19 for carry comfort, so be it. I will respect your choice. Not agree with, but accept.

It you're not carrying it because some idiot FUDD or FUDDS told you 'they're illegal', STOP SPREADING AND BUYING INTO THEIR BULLSHIT.

My G19, which is on my hip RIGHT NOW, is an LE turn-in - which pre-dates to before any of the 'bans' passed by the statist a$sholes that pass themselves off as Constitutional officers in MA. It was legally transferred through MIRCs and NICS. Ma.gov know I possess it. If it were illegal, I'm sure they'd have something to say, like they would about my other G19, or my G30, or my G21 or my other G21.

Explain to me how in ANY way, with a definite 'ban' date, and the firearm pre-dating that date, transferred through the MA non-registration of MIRCS, and NOTHING prohibiting it in ANY statute, how my Glock is 'illegal'. Not even the absurd Healey ban messed with that.

I'd say 'grow a pair and stop with your Massprudence', but if you want to lick the boots of your masters, go ahead. Personally, I fvcking HATE nearly all of them, and think there should be a few of them tarred, feathered and run out of town and those that aren't should get festering boils on their a$sholes and die a lingering painful pus-infected death. And that's on a GOOD day.

I don't carry a spare magazine anymore. I don't discourage anyone from doing it, I just wear a belt full of shit all day and don't feel like I'm Batman when I'm not working. That's probably an awful reason, but that's my reason. I carry a G19 in an Eidolon, and a foursevens Quark click in left pocket. That's it.

Reloading in a LE pistol fight is a documented rarity, and I suspect the numbers are even lower for non-LE gunfights.

I did just order a neomag carrier for work (plain clothes details), as the reviews have been great. If it's that good, and comfortable, I may consider carrying a spare magazine off duty.

WTF Stu? Why am I practicing my mag changes and dummy rounds in the main mag? Bastard

 

[Radtekk]

I've been carrying a ful-size 1911 for several years. 8+1, with a spare mag in my left front pocket and another on my belt, both 10's, so 29 rounds total. My EDC bag has 3 8's, my GHB in the trunk another 2. Why? Seriously, why NOT? Lady Radtekk carries basically the same, but with a G26. With the S&W thing, I bought a Shield in 9. Nice and small, conceals well, been trialing it 8+1 with THREE spares on me. If I decide to carry it daily, I'll be buying more mags.

I pray to God I never have to pull any gun out that I'm carrying. If I do, the absolute LAST thing I want to do is run out of ammo. Hit the mag release by accident in the dark, down a mag. Fumble the reload, down two. With the 1911 I'd STILL have one left, 2 with the Shield. I carry more than I hope to ever need, and I pray I'll never say "Damn, I wish I had grabbed that extra mag when I was walking out the door..." Especially if I'm standing in front of a big hole in the ground.