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restoration of guns after a house fire

fortitude42

fortitude42

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A week ago, my wife and I experienced a house fire. We were renting and pretty much lost all our possessions, and most importantly we lost our dog Jesse. It has given me a new outlook on life and also taught me a lot about forgiveness and how through all the bad things that may happen in this world, people are inherently good. Things are just things in the end, and we (my wife and I) are both safe and have the love and support we have come to realize that triumphs through all that we have lost. We were able to salvage some of the guns that I had stored in a cheap safe, but the rest were recovered but severely damaged.

I am not a metallurgist, but i do understand a little about fire as that is what i went to school for. I believe that the guns in the safe were unharmed due to there being items in there that have melting points around the 250 degree F mark, that were completely unharmed and were on the most heated side of the safe. The fire had only lasted 20 mins. total, and the safe was in the least damaged area of the house.

With that said, my question isn't about those guns. I have 3 that were somewhat dear to me, an M1 Garand, a Mosin Nagant, and a K31 Swiss rifle that the stocks had charred, but all the springs retained their elasticity. The Mosin and K31 re a bit easier to replace, though i will eventually get new stocks and refinish all the metal parts so that they can become non firing conversation pieces. But the Garand i was hoping to get insight about possibly restoring back to a firing condition.

The temper had most likely been drawn out of the barrel, and i would like to know if it may be something worth re-barreling or what parts may have been adversely affected to the point where it would need replacing for safety concerns.

I am kind of hanging onto a thread here(no pun intended) by trying to see if it can be restored. Its not a problem to me to just add another stock on and put it with the others as a non firing piece. There was no insurance BTW, and all guns were stored in compliance with the law. I would really like to hear productive things as me and my wife are trying to move forward and make some better decisions, and not dwell on what should have/could have happened had we done things differently. So I ask please keep things relative to my question. Thank you so much in advance, for guiding me during this difficult point in my life.
 
i honestly do not know about reversing the fire damage but wanted to send some support for what you went thru. I know you wanted to stay on topic. forgive me for verring off. thats pretty horrible and sorry for the loss of your pet. poor dog. I was involved in a tour bus fire years ago and ever since then my respect for what fire can do multiplied ten fold. hang in there and good luck
 
That really sucks. Sorry to hear that.


I know one guy who had a house fire make the finish on his firearms look better.
 
Man that really sucks, glad that you and your wife are keeping up good spirits through this. This is one of my reasons why I always tell people to buy a good fireproof safe first, yeah it might take away from some of the guns you want but then atleast they would be protected. Not sure exactly how bad they are, but what about cleaning them up the best you can and try to turn them in at one of those nazi trade ins? Just a thought and hope you hang in there.

Charles.
 
I have no idea what it would take to get the M1 in firing condition. And I'm very sorry to hear about your guns, possessions, and your dog.

Any chance you have a PayPal account, maybe we could all chip in a few bucks to help get the M1 firing again (if its possible), the least we could do considering all you've lost. Could call it the "GET fortitude42 M1 FIRING AGAIN FUND".

IN
 
I'd put them in the hands of a good gun smith and have him look them over. Some may be salvagable but may be doubful depending on how hot the fire got close to the safe.

Sorry to hear of your loss.
 
First, my heart goes out to you and your wife for your losses, especially your dog Jesse.[sad] I'm glad you both made it out in time.

I've seen first hand many times the devastation that fire brings and its brutally ugly and thorough in its action. Hang in there and start again as difficult as it may be to do. Yes its easier to say and alot harder to do, but really what other choice do you have? Be thankful you still have your health, as you said, things can be replaced. Look forward, not back.

As for the Garand, how badly charred? Exposure time to the fire is going to make the difference. If only slightly, I wouldn't worry much about it, especially if the springs are still viable. There's alot more mass to the other components and they can absorb alot of heat before weakening.
Something like this really needs to be viewed, as its difficult to accurately determine extent of damage by description. Possible to post any pics? You obviously have internet access posting here.

Be strong and check in often, Best Wishes in starting over.

EDIT: I've personally fired an AK until it caught fire, quenched it in a bucket of water, reloaded it and kept firing. I'd imagine if your gun sustained less heat than that, its still good to go.[smile][smile]
 
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Sorry for your loss. Glad to hear you and your wife are ok.

I can't help with info on the restoration but I'm sure someone will chime in soon. NES'rs know a lot.

My only suggestions would if you had isurance take them to a gunsmith and ask if he'll give you a written estimate.
 
I can't offer you help personally, but our 'smith for most things is Mike Pigney. If he can't help you, he is sure to know who can.
 
Finalygotabeltfed said:
As for the Garand, how badly charred? Exposure time to the fire is going to make the difference. If only slightly, I wouldn't worry much about it, especially if the springs are still viable. There's alot more mass to the other components and they can absorb alot of heat before weakening.
Something like this really needs to be viewed, as its difficult to accurately determine extent of damage by description. Possible to post any pics?
Click to expand...

Most of the guns are with a friend temporarily, i can post pictures, but i had taken the stocks off to try a first attempts cleaning a few days after the fire. The butt end of each stock were burned off, and it had been charred about an inch past the pistol grip(forward of the pistol grip had soot and smoke damage).

Based on my education and experience i will say that the milsurp guns were exposed to temperatures between 400-900 degrees for about 4-10 mins. Just gestimations because the surrounding objects like plastics rubbers and lead were in various states of deformation based on the location.

And thank you so much everyone for your support and timely responses. We are very fortunate, and grateful for everything we have, and the support we have been given.
 
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Wishing you and your wife peace as you put the pieces back together. Very sorry for the loss of your dog. Hopefully you can get those guns up and running soon.

-JR
 
Me and my wife went through the same thing where our place burned to the ground. Sucks big time. If htere is anything I can do to help you out - let me know.
 
fortitude42 said:
Based on my education and experience i will say that the milsurp guns were exposed to temperatures between 400-900 degrees for about 4-10 mins. Just gestimations because the surrounding objects like plastics rubbers and lead were in various states of deformation based on the location.
Click to expand...

what makes you think 900F? That's ****ing hot. And here's the issue with this: if you temper steel anywhere from 200 F - 600 F, you're only reducing the mechanical properties that you want for a firearm: material strength, toughness, and hardness. Saturating a steel at this point and not quenching it is called annealing, and this makes the steel more malleable and ductile. Not something you want in a gun.

If you actually saturate the steel at a 700F-1000F and temper it well, then you're increasing the material properties that you want. But since this wasn't conduced in a furnace and quenched, and instead in a gun safe in a house fire, you can only assume the worst.

If you honestly think shit got hotter than 300F, and lasted for more than a few minutes, you can't honestly shoulder those rifles without rockwell hardness testing near the chamber, receiver, and barrel. Test it from one end to the other. Because you have no idea how the heat distributed in that blaze. Hardness testing will leave tiny little dimpled domes in the metal, but it's a small price to pay for your life. You can choose locations that are otherwise covered by the stock, etc, to mask the test results.

Rockwell testing will essentially tell you if the steel's material properties have changed due to the fire. This is what you need to know before shooting them again.

I'm sorry man. This isn't what you want to hear. But I don't want you to lose your health shouldering a ****ed rifle.


edit: remember, wood's flash point is 572 F. If flames didn't penetrate your safe's walls, and you had wood stocks catching on fire, they were exposed to 572 F, easily. That's a good starting point. What other materials did you see in your safe that had either melted or burned? If there were polymers in there, what were they? And how did they look after the fire? Their melting points are much lower than 572, so you can get a range at what temperatures your safe experienced.
 
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My condolences...

I don't know your location but, I would recommend a gun smith friend who works via Tombstone Trading in Brookfield. Mitch was a production engineer at H&R making M1s and M14s and went on to start his own business... Brookfield Precision Tool. If you research BPT you'll find a history of M14 innovation including military contracts. He most likely has the equipment to test every aspect of that M1's metal.

My guess is if the springs didn't loose their temper then the rest of the metal is good. Hopefully a new stock is all it needs.
 
flintoid said:
what makes you think 900F? That's ****ing hot. And here's the issue with this: if you temper steel anywhere from 200 F - 600 F, you're only reducing the mechanical properties that you want for a firearm: material strength, toughness, and hardness. Saturating a steel at this point and not quenching it is called annealing, and this makes the steel more malleable and ductile. Not something you want in a gun.

If you actually saturate the steel at a 700F-1000F and temper it well, then you're increasing the material properties that you want. But since this wasn't conduced in a furnace and quenched, and instead in a gun safe in a house fire, you can only assume the worst.

If you honestly think shit got hotter than 300F, and lasted for more than a few minutes, you can't honestly shoulder those rifles without rockwell hardness testing near the chamber, receiver, and barrel. Test it from one end to the other. Because you have no idea how the heat distributed in that blaze. Hardness testing will leave tiny little dimpled domes in the metal, but it's a small price to pay for your life. You can choose locations that are otherwise covered by the stock, etc, to mask the test results.

Rockwell testing will essentially tell you if the steel's material properties have changed due to the fire. This is what you need to know before shooting them again.

I'm sorry man. This isn't what you want to hear. But I don't want you to lose your health shouldering a ****ed rifle.


edit: remember, wood's flash point is 572 F. If flames didn't penetrate your safe's walls, and you had wood stocks catching on fire, they were exposed to 572 F, easily. That's a good starting point. What other materials did you see in your safe that had either melted or burned? If there were polymers in there, what were they? And how did they look after the fire? Their melting points are much lower than 572, so you can get a range at what temperatures your safe experienced.
Click to expand...

He stated the stuff in the safe was ok.
 
flintoid said:
I just re-read that.

My advice still stands. And it'd be good to see how he figures a temp of ~900 F around the milsurp items in question. Because if they were exposed to 900 F, for any given amount of time that a fire might burn, they're trash.
Click to expand...

Yep, understand.

Short term exposure though, I'd still try firng from a protected position with a standard loaded cartridge. But thats just me. Thorough in person inspection should be done by someone qualified.
 
Finalygotabeltfed said:
Yep, understand.

Short term exposure though, I'd still try firng from a protected position with a standard loaded cartridge. But thats just me. Thorough in person inspection should be done by someone qualified.
Click to expand...

what I would do personally and what I would recommend to a stranger as an engineer are entirely different things [wink]
 
flintoid said:
what makes you think 900F? That's ****ing hot. And here's the issue with this: if you temper steel anywhere from 200 F - 600 F, you're only reducing the mechanical properties that you want for a firearm: material strength, toughness, and hardness. Saturating a steel at this point and not quenching it is called annealing, and this makes the steel more malleable and ductile. Not something you want in a gun.

If you actually saturate the steel at a 700F-1000F and temper it well, then you're increasing the material properties that you want. But since this wasn't conduced in a furnace and quenched, and instead in a gun safe in a house fire, you can only assume the worst.

If you honestly think shit got hotter than 300F, and lasted for more than a few minutes, you can't honestly shoulder those rifles without rockwell hardness testing near the chamber, receiver, and barrel. Test it from one end to the other. Because you have no idea how the heat distributed in that blaze. Hardness testing will leave tiny little dimpled domes in the metal, but it's a small price to pay for your life. You can choose locations that are otherwise covered by the stock, etc, to mask the test results.

Rockwell testing will essentially tell you if the steel's material properties have changed due to the fire. This is what you need to know before shooting them again.

I'm sorry man. This isn't what you want to hear. But I don't want you to lose your health shouldering a ****ed rifle.


edit: remember, wood's flash point is 572 F. If flames didn't penetrate your safe's walls, and you had wood stocks catching on fire, they were exposed to 572 F, easily. That's a good starting point. What other materials did you see in your safe that had either melted or burned? If there were polymers in there, what were they? And how did they look after the fire? Their melting points are much lower than 572, so you can get a range at what temperatures your safe experienced.
Click to expand...

The milsurp guns weren't in the safe. I feel confident that the rifles in the safe were ok, because there were some rubber and plastic materials that were not deformed at all(found those to have very low melting temperatures). The Garand and other rifles were in locked plastic cases, which had melted. I gave the range of between 6-900 degrees because we had 1/4" wood paneling on the walls (no sheetrock in the house) and it made the fire get to a little higher temperature range. It was definitely not the hottest room in the house(where th guns were kept), because a seperate room had melted aluminum so the fire was between 1250-1500 degrees in those spots. All copper was intact obviously so we know that the fire wasn't out of this world crazy hot. If it helps, there was ammunition in some surplus cases that didn't get cooked off that was near where the rifles were stored.

So i am confident the guns in the safe are OK, and i will be testing those as some point. The Garand is the only gun other than those in the safe that i would like to restore to firing condition if possible, and if it takes re-barreling it, it may be something to consider. I lived next to the fire department, and the room where the Garand was was the furthest from the point of origin and also one of the first spots they had attacked the fire from. Does anyone know of a place where i can have at least the receiver Rockwell tested?

Thank you so much for your continued help and support
 
unfortunately, I don't know of any gunsmiths that do rockwell hardness testing. Perhaps someone else knows of one?

You can rebarrel a garand. Just hopefully the receiver isn't compromised.

Did the wood on the garand burn?
 
Sorry about the loss, especially the dog.

Did you have insurance? Perhaps the adjuster has some restoration contacts. They certainly prefer to repair if cheaper than paying out.
 
Sweeney said:
My condolences...

I don't know your location but, I would recommend a gun smith friend who works via Tombstone Trading in Brookfield.
My guess is if the springs didn't loose their temper then the rest of the metal is good. Hopefully a new stock is all it needs.
Click to expand...

I know a new stock for sure, and plan for at least a new barrel.
flintoid said:
unfortunately, I don't know of any gunsmiths that do rockwell hardness testing. Perhaps someone else knows of one?

You can rebarrel a garand. Just hopefully the receiver isn't compromised.

Did the wood on the garand burn?
Click to expand...

The wood had burned on the butt end of the stock, and was charred up to the pistol grip area. I dont have pictures of the stock unfortunately because i had taken it off to clean the rifle, and it had been disposed of later due to the smell. It would be awhile before i can shoot it again, as my reloading presses were lost too with all my components and a whole bunch of ammo. But i always loaded the Garand very light, and she always shot beautifully.

We didn't have renters insurance because we are pretty young and naive (took out a policy yesterday to learn from my mistake) It was the landlords fault, due to his negligence, but he was also negligent in paying his mortgage as well as his liability insurance so we are SOL as far as that goes
 
So the wood around the receiver and barrel had not burned, correct? Just at the base of the stock. Did the plastic case burn? Or just melt? I'm guessing it was either polypropylene or ABS of some sort?

Any evidence of other things burning around the rifle? I apologize about the questions- I'm just trying to get a better idea as to the state of the gun. If the fire didn't burn around the steel, then it didn't get as hot as 900 F. Wood ignites at 572. If it didn't burn, it didn't get that hot. And if it didn't get that hot and the fire burned for only minutes (not hours or half hours) the steel has a chance of being fine.

I can't tell you for sure, though. And I won't. Because there is only estimations at this point until you get the metal tested.
 

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