Relolading .308 for gas and bolt guns: what dies to use?

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I'm a little confused, even after a few hours of reading the old posts here. I want to start reloading .308 for my FN FALs but I also want to eventually reload for a bolt gun/accuracy loads. I've reloaded lot's of .223 with small base dies and figure this is the way to go for the FAL but I'm still confused about the differences between the full length sizer dies versus small base versus the bushing dies and finally just neck sizing. Is there one good set of dies for both gas and bolt or should I just get a set for each? In that case I'd guess small base for the gas guns and neck sizing for the bolt, but I never understood the difference between full length sizer and small base die and I've never used a bushing die but have heard good things... Then there's Forster vs. Redding vs. RCBS and all the other brands, all good but some better than others. It's tough sorting it all out. The money for a good setup is not an issue, having reloaded 20k+ of .223 convinced me of that, I hate buying stuff twice. Can I do it with one set of dies? What are you guys using and what do you recommend?
Thanks

mark2
 
Here's my $0.02...

You don't need small-base dies. Size your brass in two steps. Use a Redding Body die to full-length size the brass and push the shoulder back about 0.003" less than a fired case. Then neck size using a Lee collet neck sizing die. There's a reason to do it this way (PM me for details, I don't feel like typing it out after a few drinks).

Get a Redding (or RCBS) competition seating die to seat the bullets.

When you load for your bolt gun, experiment with the COAL. Depending on your gun, you might get the best results with the bullets seated right up to the lands. Keep them 0.010" off the lands for your FAL. (And good luck with the wavy rims if you're using brass from your FALs).
 
Thanks EC, good info, I'll give you a call later this week... curious why you'd add a second step of neck sizing.
What's the deal with the bushing dies, are they worth the coin?
 
Most all regular full length sizing dies squeeze the crap out of your necks. The size it down too much, and then drag an expander ball back through it to bring it up to the proper size for appropriate neck tension. That cold working ruins them quickly. The bushing allow you to control the amount of sizing the neck gets, so that you are only squeezing them down just enough. The other option to fix this problem is to have the factory hone your neck to an appropriate dimension. Forester will do it for $15 or so.

B
 
I have some questions on std FL dies, vs collet sizing, vs bushing sizing. I've heard various things on the internets and overheard from other reloaders. What are your thoughts on whether any of the following is true. I'm not invested in these conclusions, just trying to vet them out.

Std FL dies
Advantage:
  • Easier to get consistent OD and ID neck sizing
  • Does not adversely affect shoulder, and thus cause incorrect headspace
Disadvantage:
  • The over-sizing followed by expander ball do work the brass twice as much
  • Can't customize neck tension w/o aftermarket tuning
Net:
  • Best option for inexpensive brass, provided your getting good accuracy...just don't expect long brass life

Collet dies
Advantage:
  • Does not overwork brass
  • Allows customized neck tension
Disadvantage:
  • Harder to use
  • May cause inconsistent OD, because the collet flanges resulting in runout issues
  • Mars (scratches) neck
  • May "round off" shoulders which could adversely affect headspace
Net:
Used properly can allow customized neck tension w/o overworking brass provided you have a very good consistent process and check for headspace and runout.

Bushing dies:
Advantage:
  • Most consistent way to get perfect OD, ID consistency depends on the quality of the brass
  • Does not overwork brass
  • Allows customized neck tension (with multiple bushings)
Disadvantage:
  • More expensive
  • Benefits realized only with expensive brass (eg. Lapua)
Net:

  • [*=1]Good for high quality benchrest shooting from bolt guns

Conclusion
:
  • If you have average quality brass and don't care about brass life, go w/ std FL dies. Good option for AR plinking.
  • If you have average to above average brass, care about brass life and get better results with customizing neck tension use the collet dies.
  • If you have really high quality, expensive brass and are looking for benchrest accuracy then use collet dies. This is especially good for bolt guns where you may be doing no body sizing, 0 headspacing, and/or neck turning.
 
I reload 30-06 but should be the same ?
M1 garand new demmension FL dies. As set per instructions function 100% and check out on the wilson case guage.
I also have a set of redding neck size dies which I started playing with for my 03A3
After fireforming cases to my A3 I just started neck sizeing. Im at the point though that I am not a skilled enough shooter to spend a heck of a lot of time on getting these dies set up correctly. Especially with a old 03A3. I have found though that getting the correct over all length or proper bullet seating depth for the 03A3 has proven to be a good gain in accuracy that I noticed.. I been loading my 03 loads a tad over max magazine length. Only good for single loading but thats fine.

I think when I get to casting for my bolt gun I will dig deeper into neck sizing to better fit the cast boolits.
 
Here's my $0.02...

You don't need small-base dies. Size your brass in two steps. Use a Redding Body die to full-length size the brass and push the shoulder back about 0.003" less than a fired case. Then neck size using a Lee collet neck sizing die. There's a reason to do it this way (PM me for details, I don't feel like typing it out after a few drinks).

Small-base dies are only for those chambers that are anal-retentive and are very sensitive. Most mil-spec chambers, AFAIK, are not this way. All my milspec AR15s and M1As have not been picky about any FL-sizing dies, but this is not always the case...depends on the firearm. You can always try some, chamber (the case, unloaded), and see what happens.

Get a Redding (or RCBS) competition seating die to seat the bullets.

Yes. Spend more on the seater. The bullet seating process is the part most likely to induce runout (improperly aligned bullet), and so the most consistency will be attained by investing here. The Redding seater with the micrometer is quite sweet.

When you load for your bolt gun, experiment with the COAL. Depending on your gun, you might get the best results with the bullets seated right up to the lands. Keep them 0.010" off the lands for your FAL. (And good luck with the wavy rims if you're using brass from your FALs).

Be careful here - I would go with book length until you're comfortable with the concept of either touching or "jumping to" the lands of your rifle. Safest bet is to keep the bullet off the lands until you're read up on pressure testing, and all that. Thinking your pressure is fine, when it's off the lands, could introduce quite a bit more pressure with the same load if you move the bullet out to touch the lands...be sure to work up gradually. Noone else's reloading data matters but yours.
 
My experience with loading to the lands is it's impossible with .223, the mags simply aren't long enough and even if they were it wouldn't leave enough bullet in the case, the lands are that far away. I haven't checked a .308 round in my FAL yet but would guess it's the same. Just wondering if a good reloading setup for the FAL will work equally well when I start to load for a fussier bolt gun.
So far it sounds like a full length die and a good seating die is what I need to get going. I like Redding too, what's a recommendation for a full length die?
Still, no one's talked about bushing dies, are these just for benchrest or what?
 
ust wondering if a good reloading setup for the FAL will work equally well when I start to load for a fussier bolt gun.

Not sure what you mean by this

In a bolt action you are not confined to the magazine length, and of course you are manually cambering, extracting and ejecting.

A semi auto rifle may require a specific overall cartridge length to feed from the magazine, and/or powder charge to cycle the action properly.

To add to this
If you were to reload 308 for both a FAL and a bolt gun, you would almost certainly be using two very different loads. It would benefit both rifles to use their own batch of brass. The FAL brass would benefit from a full length sizing to allow it to easily chamber each time, while the bolt gun brass could be neck sized, this is less stressful on the brass, and results in a tighter fit to the chamber, producing better accuracy. For these reasons you would be best off with two sets of dies as well.

Don't mean to confuse or overwhelm you, just some more information to keep in mind,
 
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Still, no one's talked about bushing dies, are these just for benchrest or what?

Negative. They simply allow you to control the amount of sizing done to the neck. Most regular FL & Neck dies that I have looked at squeeze the neck down way more than is needed. If you want to check your die, take out the decapper & expander and size a case and measure it. Now put it back in and size a different case and compare the two. The manufacturers do this because they want their dies to work with every conceivable piece of brass that they could think of. The problem is that you will prematurely wear out the necks with regular dies. What you want to do is just size them down enough so the expander ball just kisses the inside of the necks and only changes the ID of the neck by a couple of thou.

B

BTW, there are numerous .223 chambers, not to mention 5.56mm chambers. They are all different. Some will be jammed at ctg. SAAMI OAL and some will fall out of the case before they get close to the lands. It all depends on chamber dimensions and bullet selection.
 
I had some bushing dies for .223 but I hardly ever used them and traded them for something. The trouble with the bushing dies was that I needed a different bushing for different headstamps. I have large lots of 4 or 5 headstamps, and because of different brass thicknesses, I would've needed a different bushing for 3 out of the 4. Bushing dies do all the sizing from the outside, so if the brass is a different thickness, you get a different ID.

I've been using a Redding body die (not a small-base) to size the body and push the shoulder back to 0.003" less than the headspace in my chamber. Then I size the necks with a Lee collet neck sizing die. This die uses a collet to squeeze the neck against a mandrel, so the ID is always the same size regardless of the thickness of the brass.

I don't get marks on the necks, nor does the collet die change the shoulder at all. The runout is less than any of the other dies that I've used. The downside is that it's an extra step, and the technique is important. You don't run the ram all the way to the stop with the collet die, so you need to develop a feel for it.
 
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Still, no one's talked about bushing dies, are these just for benchrest or what?

Bushing dies do all the sizing from the outside, so if the brass is a different thickness, you get a different ID.

This is exactly why I've always associated bushing dies w/ benchrest shooting. If I was trying to match everything up, and I knew my exact chamber neck diameter I'd buy stupid expensive quality brass, set the ID w/ the appropriate mandrel/expander, then I'd turn the necks to 0.001" less than my chamber. From that point on I should be able to repeat that exact setup by only sizing w/ a bushing die (set for the aforementioned 0.001" less than chamber). For range slogs like me, that level of precision is too much.

I probably wouldn't bother doing any body sizing, and I probably would be ok w/ no shoulder push back (eg 0 headspace)...

...but I'm not a bench rest shooter so what do I know.
 
EC, good point about the assorted brass with the bushing dies. Might explain my proplems when trying on my 30-06 loads.
 
I probably wouldn't bother doing any body sizing, and I probably would be ok w/ no shoulder push back (eg 0 headspace)...

Eventually you will need to size the body, as you will not be able to fit it into the chamber after a couple of cycles of neck sizing only.

B
 
If you fire form the cases and don't resize the body, any non-concentricity is going to shove the bullet hard against one side of the leade. If you full length size, there will be enough side-to-side clearance for the bullet to self-align.
 
If you fire form the cases and don't resize the body, any non-concentricity is going to shove the bullet hard against one side of the leade. If you full length size, there will be enough side-to-side clearance for the bullet to self-align.

I was always under the impression that the elastic nature of the brass "snapped back" a little bit after getting fire formed? If it didn't you'd never be able to extract them. It's possible they don't shrink enough to cure the problem you describe though, I can see that.
 
I was always under the impression that the elastic nature of the brass "snapped back" a little bit after getting fire formed? If it didn't you'd never be able to extract them. It's possible they don't shrink enough to cure the problem you describe though, I can see that.

Have you ever neck sized a case twice then chambered it? It fits, but with no room. Plus, even if there's a bit of room on the sides, with 0 headspace, a non-concentrically loaded bullet cannot align. A little clearance is a good thing.
 
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I don't have any bottleneck rifle sizing dies that are not FL w/ the expander ball. I know they work the brass more than collet or bushing. That said, I still get about 7 or 8 loadings out of a .308 before I start seeing neck cracks.

By that time the auto loaders have beat the tar out of the cases and the headstamps are barely readable. I usually shoot pretty cheap brass (Winchester or Remington) and I don't anneal.
 
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