Reloading for the K31 ?

[76Too]

Here's one for you...little back story:

Started loading for the 7.5x55 Swiss this spring when I bought my 1911 long rifle...worked up some loads with IMR4895 and some 168 Nosler CC's and ended up settling on 35gr for my 100yd plinking loads because they gave me the best accuracy out of the bunch with both my 1911 Long and my K11 (1911 short). Fast forward, I decided to try this load in my K31 and it worked just fine! I was getting 2-3" groups with poor lighting and open sights with this relative punani queef load of mine...good enough for me because it was going to be easier on my antique rifles. I take my 25 PPU brass and throw them in the tumbler for about a month waiting for more brass to fill up the tumbler enough to justify running it for a few hours (time to shoot was pretty scarce this summer due to house projects and the likes). I do a FL resize and de prime...reprime and tumble again for a few minutes to get the lube off and then load them up again and put them in my 'range ammo can' so they're there for the next time i take out one of the swiss ladies. Thinking that all would be well and good, I took the 1911 long to the range this past wednesday, but to my surprise not a single one of my rounds would chamber!



I was a little miffed to say the least, but knew there had to be a good reason for it. Got home and compared my home-spun ammo to some GP11 and was really surprised at what i found.



The K31 chamber seems to have destroyed this brass for use in my 1911 Schmidt Rubins! I use Redding dies for this caliber because I had read somewhere that a lot of people were having trouble making the Lee and RCBS dies work for thier K31's. As it turns out, the Redding dies do not size anywhere close to GP11, but rather more so to a K31 chamber spec. The dies did a fine job as long as I was firing the brass out of both my 1911's, but as soon as I put it through the K31 it will not FL resize to fit in the other rifles any more. The difference is so big that it is even visible when looking at the case necks.



Do any of you load for other swiss rifles as well and have experienced similar issues? I'm kind of surprised the 1911's have a tighter chamber than the K31, as I thought it was the other way around. I have 200 PPU brass in bags waiting to get loaded, so it's not at all an issue that I can't use the 'test load' brass in my other rifles anymore (unless another brand of die would work to get them back to GP11 spec or close to it). Looks like I'm going to have to keep my brass for each individual rifle separate and finally start learning to neck size to increase accuracy and ensure that my damn ammo is going to chamber when I get to the range!

Anyway...just thought it was worth mentioning since I'm seeing some good activity in this thread. I'm still waiting for Mountain to post up his 'secret 2520' load though.

Side note...has anyone tried the Nosler 175gr RDF bullets in their Swiss rifles yet? I feel like those might even be a better fit than the 168 HPBT and it looks like a certain online vendor has some 'blemishes' on sale right now that I might just have to try out.

 

[mac1911]

Here's one for you...little back story:

Started loading for the 7.5x55 Swiss this spring when I bought my 1911 long rifle...worked up some loads with IMR4895 and some 168 Nosler CC's and ended up settling on 35gr for my 100yd plinking loads because they gave me the best accuracy out of the bunch with both my 1911 Long and my K11 (1911 short). Fast forward, I decided to try this load in my K31 and it worked just fine! I was getting 2-3" groups with poor lighting and open sights with this relative punani queef load of mine...good enough for me because it was going to be easier on my antique rifles. I take my 25 PPU brass and throw them in the tumbler for about a month waiting for more brass to fill up the tumbler enough to justify running it for a few hours (time to shoot was pretty scarce this summer due to house projects and the likes). I do a FL resize and de prime...reprime and tumble again for a few minutes to get the lube off and then load them up again and put them in my 'range ammo can' so they're there for the next time i take out one of the swiss ladies. Thinking that all would be well and good, I took the 1911 long to the range this past wednesday, but to my surprise not a single one of my rounds would chamber!

View attachment 249365 View attachment 249364

I was a little miffed to say the least, but knew there had to be a good reason for it. Got home and compared my home-spun ammo to some GP11 and was really surprised at what i found.

View attachment 249360 View attachment 249360

The K31 chamber seems to have destroyed this brass for use in my 1911 Schmidt Rubins! I use Redding dies for this caliber because I had read somewhere that a lot of people were having trouble making the Lee and RCBS dies work for thier K31's. As it turns out, the Redding dies do not size anywhere close to GP11, but rather more so to a K31 chamber spec. The dies did a fine job as long as I was firing the brass out of both my 1911's, but as soon as I put it through the K31 it will not FL resize to fit in the other rifles any more. The difference is so big that it is even visible when looking at the case necks.

View attachment 249363 View attachment 249362

Do any of you load for other swiss rifles as well and have experienced similar issues? I'm kind of surprised the 1911's have a tighter chamber than the K31, as I thought it was the other way around. I have 200 PPU brass in bags waiting to get loaded, so it's not at all an issue that I can't use the 'test load' brass in my other rifles anymore (unless another brand of die would work to get them back to GP11 spec or close to it). Looks like I'm going to have to keep my brass for each individual rifle separate and finally start learning to neck size to increase accuracy and ensure that my damn ammo is going to chamber when I get to the range!

Anyway...just thought it was worth mentioning since I'm seeing some good activity in this thread. I'm still waiting for Mountain to post up his 'secret 2520' load though.

Side note...has anyone tried the Nosler 175gr RDF bullets in their Swiss rifles yet? I feel like those might even be a better fit than the 168 HPBT and it looks like a certain online vendor has some 'blemishes' on sale right now that I might just have to try out.

Do you have any GP11 fired cases from the 1911 to compare to the GP fired in the K31 or even the PPU .
Can you tell exactly what is keeping your K31 fired and resized brass from fitting in the K1911? Is it the shoulder, body , neck?
I know using lee dies as directions say it brings the brass way back
Factory brass GP or PPU grows about .018” measured from the datum using hornady gauge and adapter D400 I don’t see much in the way of body growth?

I’m not familiar with Redding dies for the swiss

 

[Mountain]

Here's one for you...little back story:

Started loading for the 7.5x55 Swiss this spring when I bought my 1911 long rifle...worked up some loads with IMR4895 and some 168 Nosler CC's and ended up settling on 35gr for my 100yd plinking loads because they gave me the best accuracy out of the bunch with both my 1911 Long and my K11 (1911 short). Fast forward, I decided to try this load in my K31 and it worked just fine! I was getting 2-3" groups with poor lighting and open sights with this relative punani queef load of mine...good enough for me because it was going to be easier on my antique rifles. I take my 25 PPU brass and throw them in the tumbler for about a month waiting for more brass to fill up the tumbler enough to justify running it for a few hours (time to shoot was pretty scarce this summer due to house projects and the likes). I do a FL resize and de prime...reprime and tumble again for a few minutes to get the lube off and then load them up again and put them in my 'range ammo can' so they're there for the next time i take out one of the swiss ladies. Thinking that all would be well and good, I took the 1911 long to the range this past wednesday, but to my surprise not a single one of my rounds would chamber!

View attachment 249365 View attachment 249364

I was a little miffed to say the least, but knew there had to be a good reason for it. Got home and compared my home-spun ammo to some GP11 and was really surprised at what i found.

View attachment 249360 View attachment 249360

The K31 chamber seems to have destroyed this brass for use in my 1911 Schmidt Rubins! I use Redding dies for this caliber because I had read somewhere that a lot of people were having trouble making the Lee and RCBS dies work for thier K31's. As it turns out, the Redding dies do not size anywhere close to GP11, but rather more so to a K31 chamber spec. The dies did a fine job as long as I was firing the brass out of both my 1911's, but as soon as I put it through the K31 it will not FL resize to fit in the other rifles any more. The difference is so big that it is even visible when looking at the case necks.

View attachment 249363 View attachment 249362

Do any of you load for other swiss rifles as well and have experienced similar issues? I'm kind of surprised the 1911's have a tighter chamber than the K31, as I thought it was the other way around. I have 200 PPU brass in bags waiting to get loaded, so it's not at all an issue that I can't use the 'test load' brass in my other rifles anymore (unless another brand of die would work to get them back to GP11 spec or close to it). Looks like I'm going to have to keep my brass for each individual rifle separate and finally start learning to neck size to increase accuracy and ensure that my damn ammo is going to chamber when I get to the range!

Anyway...just thought it was worth mentioning since I'm seeing some good activity in this thread. I'm still waiting for Mountain to post up his 'secret 2520' load though.

Side note...has anyone tried the Nosler 175gr RDF bullets in their Swiss rifles yet? I feel like those might even be a better fit than the 168 HPBT and it looks like a certain online vendor has some 'blemishes' on sale right now that I might just have to try out.

Yeah that neck on the right looks funky. I don’t have that issue with mine- maybe try resizing some fired brass from my K31?

LOL you must have ignored my PM regarding the secret load from last year’s Perry winner. I didn’t take my own advice anyway and shot GP11 in Vermont. My combined slow and rapid was one point short of DW who was overall winner and ahead of both Franco and Perry winner. As usual I sprayed shots all over in awfulhand.

 

[mac1911]

Yeah that neck on the right looks funky. I don’t have that issue with mine- maybe try resizing some fired brass from my K31?

LOL you must have ignored my PM regarding the secret load from last year’s Perry winner. I didn’t take my own advice anyway and shot GP11 in Vermont. My combined slow and rapid was one point short of DW who was overall winner and ahead of both Franco and Perry winner. As usual I sprayed shots all over in awfulhand.

The one on the right is a factory GP11 correct?
The way i understand it is the dies are not made to any standard. GP11 is made to fit both.
Try chambering a fired GP 11 case in the rifle you shot it in. Most likely it will be tight if the bolt closes at all. WARNING dont slam the bolt forward you might have a very hard time extracting that fired case.
What i see is the area just below the should where the body starts is where gp11 grows the most after being fired in my K31
Could make things easy and just get a K31 in 308
SWISS K-31 MATCH RIFLE

 

[76Too]

Yeah that neck on the right looks funky. I don’t have that issue with mine- maybe try resizing some fired brass from my K31?

LOL you must have ignored my PM regarding the secret load from last year’s Perry winner. I didn’t take my own advice anyway and shot GP11 in Vermont. My combined slow and rapid was one point short of DW who was overall winner and ahead of both Franco and Perry winner. As usual I sprayed shots all over in awfulhand.

The one on the right is GP11...so that's my 'control'. I realize it's got to be smaller so that it can fit all the rifles it was intended to fit. My surprise mostly comes from my dies inability to size back to GP11(ish) specs. the cases barely even look like the same caliber.

I just scoured my inbox on here and my gmail and I can't seem to find your email with the load info for 2520. Next year I really want to get serious trying to find a good 'competitive' load for the K31 and will try 4895 v 4064 v 2520 in a head to head with 155's, 168's, and 175's maybe? If I don't find that 2520 works as well as I hope, the gentleman that sold it to me told me it's the tits for Garand loads.

The one on the right is a factory GP11 correct?
The way i understand it is the dies are not made to any standard. GP11 is made to fit both.
Try chambering a fired GP 11 case in the rifle you shot it in. Most likely it will be tight if the bolt closes at all. WARNING dont slam the bolt forward you might have a very hard time extracting that fired case.
What i see is the area just below the should where the body starts is where gp11 grows the most after being fired in my K31
Could make things easy and just get a K31 in 308
SWISS K-31 MATCH RIFLE

Understanding that the GP11 would absolutely be different than my realoads for obvious reasons stated above, I'm still kinda scratching my head as to why FL sizing isn't doing the trick for the 1911 Long and K11. I notice the area just below the shoulder too, and that's 100% the issue at hand here. The 1911's must have a somewhat 'tapered' chamber?

that .308 is actually probably considered a 'bargain' with what the K31 prices are like these days! it's got all the really nice accessories with it too!

 

[Mountain]

The one on the right is GP11...so that's my 'control'. I realize it's got to be smaller so that it can fit all the rifles it was intended to fit. My surprise mostly comes from my dies inability to size back to GP11(ish) specs. the cases barely even look like the same caliber.

I just scoured my inbox on here and my gmail and I can't seem to find your email with the load info for 2520. Next year I really want to get serious trying to find a good 'competitive' load for the K31 and will try 4895 v 4064 v 2520 in a head to head with 155's, 168's, and 175's maybe? If I don't find that 2520 works as well as I hope, the gentleman that sold it to me told me it's the tits for Garand loads.



Understanding that the GP11 would absolutely be different than my realoads for obvious reasons stated above, I'm still kinda scratching my head as to why FL sizing isn't doing the trick for the 1911 Long and K11. I notice the area just below the shoulder too, and that's 100% the issue at hand here. The 1911's must have a somewhat 'tapered' chamber?

that .308 is actually probably considered a 'bargain' with what the K31 prices are like these days! it's got all the really nice accessories with it too!

Sent you another PM. Personally I had better results with Varget but I'm going to try the 2520 again. The GP11 is stupid accurate in my rifle but it's a little hot compared to the 2520 loads and the Varget loads.

 

[mac1911]

The one on the right is GP11...so that's my 'control'. I realize it's got to be smaller so that it can fit all the rifles it was intended to fit. My surprise mostly comes from my dies inability to size back to GP11(ish) specs. the cases barely even look like the same caliber.

I just scoured my inbox on here and my gmail and I can't seem to find your email with the load info for 2520. Next year I really want to get serious trying to find a good 'competitive' load for the K31 and will try 4895 v 4064 v 2520 in a head to head with 155's, 168's, and 175's maybe? If I don't find that 2520 works as well as I hope, the gentleman that sold it to me told me it's the tits for Garand loads.



Understanding that the GP11 would absolutely be different than my realoads for obvious reasons stated above, I'm still kinda scratching my head as to why FL sizing isn't doing the trick for the 1911 Long and K11. I notice the area just below the shoulder too, and that's 100% the issue at hand here. The 1911's must have a somewhat 'tapered' chamber?

that .308 is actually probably considered a 'bargain' with what the K31 prices are like these days! it's got all the really nice accessories with it too!

If i was not in the middle of one of my most expensive years so far i would have called and ordered it.

As for your dies it looks like redding dies are k31 specific?
844026 set is K31 specific from what i found.
so basically your once fired 1911 brass is esentially only getting neck sized and shoulder bump when put through your redding set. Your brass fired in the K31 are fireformed to the slighlty larger K31 chamber (looks like aprox .015" larger by fired brass) so the redding die is not getting the body back down to 1911 specs.
I can tell you the lee dies will put your K31 fired brass back down to size. Took me a little time and measuring to see that this time around. Lee dies set up per instructions set the shoulder and body back to GP11 specs and even a tad more.

 

[mac1911]

View: https://youtu.be/maiLHRUPsyA

Ran out of time so this will have to be good for the match. Need to drift the front sight a smidge and center up the groups

 

[DW357]

View: https://youtu.be/maiLHRUPsyA

Ran out of time so this will have to be good for the match. Need to drift the front sight a smidge and center up the groups

Cool. Have you moved the front sight before? I ask because mine was impossible to move until I brought it to Northeast Arms and they had to use a ton of heat and good whacks with a punch to move it.

 

[mac1911]

Cool. Have you moved the front sight before? I ask because mine was impossible to move until I brought it to Northeast Arms and they had to use a ton of heat and good whacks with a punch to move it.

Yes the sight is snug but i had zero problems moving and replacing them. i had to switch out the front sight for a taller one to bring the group down. Although i had to sacrifice and install a thinner blade.
Some sights are staked in well , some have corrosion and grit. What i found best is you need to put the rifle muzzle in a solid vise use a quality drift and a good hammer. Dont be scared and give it a smack.
Side note. If i find the front sight snug my first step is to clean and use Kroil and let it sit.

 

[mac1911]

I still need to drift the front sight. This is the best of 3 6 shot groups the others where only a tad looser/bigger

View: https://imgur.com/a/H48G6hG

About .009” drift to the right should center me up pretty well

 

[Mountain]

I still need to drift the front sight. This is the best of 3 6 shot groups the others where only a tad looser/bigger

View: https://imgur.com/a/H48G6hG

About .009” drift to the right should center me up pretty well

Looks like a pretty damn good group!

I ordered a drill bit and tap to make my own 'prepared cases' for the Hornady OAL gauge. I was going to just order a 7.5 Swiss prepared case from Grafs which was the only vendor who had them in stock. Grafs can keep it and put it somewhere up an orifice. First I was denied cuz projectiles to Mass- no option to upload LTC like other sites do. After that, I go through the entire checkout process to determine that they have a $40 minimum for web purchases. No thanks, done here.

I'll make one from one of my fired cases and if I can do a decent job can make one for you, Mac. I'd make one for Dakar but first he will have to admit he doesn't read my PM's with load data, LOL.

 

[mac1911]

Looks like a pretty damn good group!

I ordered a drill bit and tap to make my own 'prepared cases' for the Hornady OAL gauge. I was going to just order a 7.5 Swiss prepared case from Grafs which was the only vendor who had them in stock. Grafs can keep it and put it somewhere up an orifice. First I was denied cuz projectiles to Mass- no option to upload LTC like other sites do. After that, I go through the entire checkout process to determine that they have a $40 minimum for web purchases. No thanks, done here.

I'll make one from one of my fired cases and if I can do a decent job can make one for you, Mac. I'd make one for Dakar but first he will have to admit he doesn't read my PM's with load data, LOL.

Thanks for the offer, im good though .
The K31 just shoots. im getting ready to go drift the front sight and might take the time to measure the movement of the rear sight in MOA.

 

[DW357]

I still need to drift the front sight. This is the best of 3 6 shot groups the others where only a tad looser/bigger

View: https://imgur.com/a/H48G6hG

About .009” drift to the right should center me up pretty well

Wow that’s some good shootin. Especially using those tiny ass sights. Just using a sandbag rest?

I got like half inch groups at 100 yards BUT I have my K31 scoped. Never tried to see what I could do with the iron sights.

 

[mac1911]

Wow that’s some good shootin. Especially using those tiny ass sights. Just using a sandbag rest?

I got like half inch groups at 100 yards BUT I have my K31 scoped. Never tried to see what I could do with the iron sights.

I try to test my loads prone with sling but use a sand bag to support my forward arm. The rifle is not on the bag directly.
This will give me a better idea of how the rifle will perform in a match. Take away the sand bag and the group will be more like 3-4 MOA
I also replaced the 1.6mm wide front sight with a 2.2mm front sight. Would have went with the 2.4mm wide sight but it was not tall enough to get my elevation where I wanted it

 

[Mountain]

I try to test my loads prone with sling but use a sand bag to support my forward arm. The rifle is not on the directly.
This will give me a better idea of how the rifle will perform in a match. Take away the sand bag and the group will be more like 3-4 MOA
I also replaced the 1.6mm wide front sight with a 2.2mm front sight. Would have went with the 2.4mm wide sight but it was not tall enough to get my elevation where I wanted it

Keep shooting the K31 like that and we are going to stamp 'NM' on your front sight.

 

[mac1911]

Does not look good for me tomorrow, my baby sitters (my mom) knee is not doing well of course its always a week im shooting stuff happens.

Well im all ready. Sight is drifted
Did my best to measure the rear sight elevation changes.
This is what i came up with using "close enough" math and a cheap caliper.
100-200 .010" = 1.6 MOA
200-300 .035" = 5 .8 MOA
300-400 .030" = 5 MOA
400-500 .028" = 4 .6 MOA
500-600 .025 = 4.1MOA

Now this was far from a high accuracy measurement. I put the rifle on the cleaning stand took my caliper and measured the change in height from the top of the rear blade to top of barrel. I did it 3 times and averaged it out.
I also just used 1" vs 1 .047" for my calculations and yards vs meters. This has nothing to do with the actual calibration of the rear sight to any specific ammo.

simply math says .006" change in sight on a K31 ( sight radius aprox 22.5" ) will move your inpact 1" at 100 yards.

Now if we use meters and actual MOA
To move 1 MOA at 100 meters its .0059" change. So really not enough to worry.

Take GP11 specs and run them through a Balistics Calculator and it comes out kinda close. It also falls in line with average come ups for service rifle.
100-200 2moa
200-300 3MOA
300-400 3.6 MOA
400-500 4.5 MoA

 

[Mountain]

Does not look good for me tomorrow, my baby sitters (my mom) knee is not doing well of course its always a week im shooting stuff happens.

Well im all ready. Sight is drifted
Did my best to measure the rear sight elevation changes.
This is what i came up with using "close enough" math and a cheap caliper.
100-200 .010" = 1.6 MOA
200-300 .035" = 5 .8 MOA
300-400 .030" = 5 MOA
400-500 .028" = 4 .6 MOA
500-600 .025 = 4.1MOA

Now this was far from a high accuracy measurement. I put the rifle on the cleaning stand took my caliper and measured the change in height from the top of the rear blade to top of barrel. I did it 3 times and averaged it out.
I also just used 1" vs 1 .047" for my calculations and yards vs meters. This has nothing to do with the actual calibration of the rear sight to any specific ammo.

simply math says .006" change in sight on a K31 ( sight radius aprox 22.5" ) will move your inpact 1" at 100 yards.

Now if we use meters and actual MOA
To move 1 MOA at 100 meters its .0059" change. So really not enough to worry.

Take GP11 specs and run them through a Balistics Calculator and it comes out kinda close. It also falls in line with average come ups for service rifle.
100-200 2moa
200-300 3MOA
300-400 3.6 MOA
400-500 4.5 MoA

Nice work and good info.

 

[mac1911]

Getting Ready for the winter cast loading sessions;
So I had a little time waiting for paint to dry so I decided to get a little jump on the cast loads for the Swiss K31.
I have 4 molds to choose from. They will be used from powder puff 1000fps loads to about as stout as I can drive them with out needed a special alloy.

As you can see all have various over all lengths and each hits the lands if loaded just a touch longer. They are all about .010ish off the lands.
Out of these 4 the ranch dog has proven the most accurate out of my other 30 cal guns and Im only driving it around 1600 fps.
Maybe the longer heavier bullets will do well out the K31 driven faster?

 

[MJ1]

Are we still trying to reinvent GP11 ? Till I ran out of Berdan primers I just used GP11 brass and Sierra match bullets from Graf's.

 

[mac1911]

Are we still trying to reinvent GP11 ? Till I ran out of Berdan primers I just used GP11 brass and Sierra match bullets from Graf's.

no not at all.... there are a few quirks on reloading for the swiss rifles in 7.5 that are not as straight forward as say 308 win.
as shown you can run into issues.
As posted earlier Dakar652 bought redding dies trying to avoid issues with reloading swiss 7.5 only to find out it created more problems as the redding dies are closer to the K31 chamber specs than the K1911.
So now he needs to get another set of dies for the k1911.



I for one don't want to be working my brass .015"+ each time I size it. which is what happens when you follow lee directions for their die set.
loading cast is also a tad different. With the short lead of the K31 bullets will cram into the lands where most cal the bullets above can be seated with lube groves showing and still not hit the lands.

 

[76Too]

I can still avoid buying more dies if I adopt a neck sizing method for each rifle and use dedicated brass for each, right? I mostly had that in mind anyway when I bought the redding dies, as I intended to use the full length dies just for when I was testing to see if I could come up with a load that all my rifles liked equally...then use the neck dies for each rifles dedicated brass and only size what I need to.

I'm not going to make it tomorrow because I've literally missed the casting seminar 3 years in a row and have every intention not to miss it again, so I'll be heading there instead. I'll be at the last match if I have anything to say about it...but leaving for TX the next day for training for my new job, so hopefully nothing travel related gets in the way of that.

 

[mac1911]

I can still avoid buying more dies if I adopt a neck sizing method for each rifle and use dedicated brass for each, right? I mostly had that in mind anyway when I bought the redding dies, as I intended to use the full length dies just for when I was testing to see if I could come up with a load that all my rifles liked equally...then use the neck dies for each rifles dedicated brass and only size what I need to.

I'm not going to make it tomorrow because I've literally missed the casting seminar 3 years in a row and have every intention not to miss it again, so I'll be heading there instead. I'll be at the last match if I have anything to say about it...but leaving for TX the next day for training for my new job, so hopefully nothing travel related gets in the way of that.

you can try to neck size, My K31 does not cycle well on neck size alone.
I have not really looked to deep into it but my factory GP11 and PPU once fired is very hard to chamber after neck size. So much so it would probably ruin any chance of getting through the rapids. Now the PPU brass resized with only pushing the shoulder back .003-.005" cycles smooth as can be.

 

[Mountain]

You might get away with neck sizing if the loads are on the light side and don't work the brass that much. Go too light and things will get a little erratic if you don't get a good brass to chamber seal, plus powder ignition gets sketchy for some powders. The factory GP11 and PPU loads are a little on the hot side compared to homegrown match loads.

***

As far as copying GP11, I guess there are a lot of attempts. One I'd like to try is N140 pushing some Berger 175 VLD's. The Bergs are too expensive to shoot a bunch but it would be interesting to try.