Redundancy Risk - Ruger 10/22 Considered high-cap ?

[everyKnee]

Sorry if this is been covered but didn’t see it in old posts -

Trying to determine if 10/22 rifle is MA legal if I’m coming into MA from NH. I have NH license, just for background purposes, but NO MA license.

I know 22 LR with 10 or less is legal but, it’s capable of accepting a +10 mag so not sure if that disqualifies it.

 

[eboos]

Sorry if this is been covered but didn’t see it in old posts -

Trying to determine if 10/22 rifle is MA legal if I’m coming into MA from NH. I have NH license, just for background purposes, but NO MA license.

I know 22 LR with 10 or less is legal but, it’s capable of accepting a +10 mag so not sure if that disqualifies it.

Pretty much anything with a detachable magazine is capable of accepting a +10 round magazine. Although I don’t have anything to cite off hand, so long as you do not have a +10 round magazine you are fine.

 

[babygorilla]

The 10/22 is legal, the mags used with it may or may not be.

 

[fencer]

Lots of Ma**h***s own 10/22's with the 25 round rotary mags without issue. I don't know if the mags are "pre-ban" or if folks just turn a blind eye because 22.
But I think bringing it to Mass without the Mass license is an issue.
If you plan on bringing the rifle to Mass to go shooting with a Mass resident that is licensed, letting him "borrow" your rifle you are fine. Bringing it to do some plinking by yourself in the woods, no good.

 

[everyKnee]

Pretty much anything with a detachable magazine is capable of accepting a +10 round magazine. Although I don’t have anything to cite off hand, so long as you do not have a +10 round magazine you are fine.

Makes sense - thanks

? same goes for other calibers ?

From reading the laws (aka bowl of spaghetti) there seems to provisions that exempt .22 cal in some circumstances. Still reading up on it..

Thanks again

 

[fencer]

Are you moving to Mass or just visiting?

 

[everyKnee]

Are you moving to Mass or just visiting?

Visiting; ranges

 

[fencer]

As others have said, I'd leave the high caps at home.
The rifle is GTG.

 

[everyKnee]

Thanks for the info - That was my plan, don’t need the 30s for range fun - just want to be legal.

 

[DW357]

Thanks for the info - That was my plan, don’t need the 30s for range fun - just want to be legal.

To follow the laws here in MA, you need a non resident LTC to possess a firearm in MA. There is no exemption. Of course you can drive through MA with a firearm (FOPA)

 

[DW357]

that being said I shoot USPSA/IDPA matches here in MA with many people from NH and CT who don’t have a nonresident LTC. They’re willing to take the chance. If you choose to do that make sure no gun stickers or other paraphernalia is visible on or in your car, in the event you were to get pulled over.

 

[Boghog1]

To follow the laws here in MA, you need a non resident LTC to possess a firearm in MA. There is no exemption. Of course you can drive through MA with a firearm (FOPA)

So if I wanted to purchase a hunting license in MA and bring the old single shot shotgun I would also be required to buy a LTC? Mass is so dumb

 

[Dcdr]

So if I wanted to purchase a hunting license in MA and bring the old single shot shotgun I would also be required to buy a LTC? Mass is so dumb

Nope, non resident hunting license allows you to possess and transport a long gun without non-res ltc (when lawfully engaged in hunting). If you plan on hunting with a handgun you need a ltc. It’s all in the MA hunting digest

 

[DW357]

Nope, non resident hunting license allows you to possess and transport a long gun without non-res ltc (when lawfully engaged in hunting). If you plan on hunting with a handgun you need a ltc. It’s all in the MA hunting digest

Hmm didn’t know that.

 

[Boghog1]

Nope, non resident hunting license allows you to possess and transport a long gun without non-res ltc (when lawfully engaged in hunting). If you plan on hunting with a handgun you need a ltc. It’s all in the MA hunting digest

it's OK, I will never hunt in MA and pay asinine amounts to the state. Folks in MA need to starve the beast

 

[strangenh]

To follow the laws here in MA, you need a non resident LTC to possess a firearm in MA. There is no exemption. Of course you can drive through MA with a firearm (FOPA)

No.

GOAL - Non Resident LTC Info

goal.org

Scroll down to Q.When do I not need a non-resident License to Carry? and read the 2nd part about MGL Chapter 140, §129C.

 

[PappyM3]

For clarification, specifically on the “hi-cap” gun thing:

If one did not have mags greater than 10 rounds for it in your control along with the gun, and will not put an 11+ round mag in, then the gun is not a large capacity weapon, regardless of its ability to accept the mags. Unless it is an “assault weapon” or specifically called out in the large cap roster.

Massachusetts has codified guidance on this in CMR.

The MGL text says:
“A Large capacity weapon'', any firearm, rifle or shotgun:
(i) that is semiautomatic with a fixed large capacity feeding device;
(ii) that is semiautomatic and capable of accepting, or readily modifiable to accept, any detachable large capacity feeding device;
(iii) that employs a rotating cylinder capable of accepting more than ten rounds of ammunition in a rifle or firearm and more than five shotgun shells in the case of a shotgun or firearm; or
(iv) that is an assault weapon.

The term ''large capacity weapon'' shall be a secondary designation and shall apply to a weapon in addition to its primary designation as a firearm, rifle or shotgun and shall not include: (i) any weapon that was manufactured in or prior to the year 1899; (ii) any weapon that operates by manual bolt, pump, lever or slide action; (iii) any weapon that is a single-shot weapon; (iv) any weapon that has been modified so as to render it permanently inoperable or otherwise rendered permanently unable to be designated a large capacity weapon; or (v) any weapon that is an antique or relic, theatrical prop or other weapon that is not capable of firing a projectile and which is not intended for use as a functional weapon and cannot be readily modified through a combination of available parts into an operable large capacity weapon..”

However, definitions of ‘capable of accepting’ and ‘readily modifiable to accept’ are defined in 501 CMR 7.02: https://www.mass.gov/files/documents/2017/09/29/501cmr7.pdf

“Capable of Accepting a Large Capacity Feeding Device means any firearm, rifle or shotgun in which a large capacity feeding device, as defined by M.G.L. c. 140, § 121, is capable of being used without alteration of the weapon; provided, however, that said feeding device is fully or partially inserted into the weapon or attached thereto, or is under the direct control of a person who also has direct control of a weapon capable of accepting said feeding device.”

“Readily Modifiable to Accept a Large Capacity Feeding Device means any firearm, rifle or shotgun immediately capable of being altered so as to accept a large capacity feeding device as defined in M.G.L. c. 140, § 121; provided, however, that said feeding device is fully or partially inserted into the weapon or attached thereto, or is under the direct control of a person who also has direct control of a weapon capable of accepting said feeding device.”

 

[DW357]

No.

GOAL - Non Resident LTC Info

goal.org

Scroll down to Q.When do I not need a non-resident License to Carry? and read the 2nd part about MGL Chapter 140, §129C.

I dunno. This has been beaten to death here on NES. Legal gurus like @Len-2A Training say there’s no competition exemption and @Rob Boudrie says there is.

don’t mean to put you two on the spot

 

[Rob Boudrie]

I dunno. This has been beaten to death here on NES. Legal gurus like @Len-2A Training say there’s no competition exemption and @Rob Boudrie says there is.

don’t mean to put you two on the spot

No, I did not say there is - or at least did not intend to.

There is a section of code that purports to offer a competition/gun show exemption, but there are two credible arguments the exemption is illusory.

MGL CH 140 SECTION 131g: "...provided, that such person is a resident of the United States and has a permit or license to carry firearms issued under the laws of any state, district or territory thereof which has licensing requirements which prohibit the issuance of permits or licenses to persons who have been convicted of a felony or who have been convicted of the unlawful use, possession or sale of narcotic or harmful drugs;..."​

1. As far as Len and I both understand there is no state that has a blanket permit/license issuance prohibition on any drug possession, including misdemeanors. The untested argument against this is that another state permits that only allowed for MJ convictions could make the cut if the court saw fit to apply the Fletcher v. Haas decision.
   
   
2. In Commmonwealth v. Cornelius the appellate court held that the new resident 60 day exemption from the LTC requirement does not apply to high capacity firearms since they are not specifically listed, and the legislature could have listed them if it intended. It is possible the same logic could be applied to the competition exemption.

An old saying in the legal world is "bad cases make bad law". In the Cornelius case, part of the background was that the new resident had the guns in the car on school property. Unsympathetic defendants can often tilt the scales of the legal interpretation in favor of conviction and, unfortunately, set bad precedent in doing so.

I have never heard of a competitor getting jammed up on this, but that does not negate either of the above arguments.

---------------------------------------------------------------

As to GOAL's posting at GOAL - Travel Info that contains the following commentary by GOAL:

​

*as used above, “carry” actually means possession of a firearm, unloaded, and locked in a case. This does not mean that an out of state resident can carry concealed or otherwise on his or her person without a MA LTC. The firearm must remain in the case until such time as the competition, hunting, etc. is taking place​

I cannot find this limitation anywhere in the statutes or case law. I think it may be a case of "filling in the blanks based on assumption". If anyone has any specific written authoritative reference enlightenment would be appreciated.

 

[rep308]

Did you ever notice that the Ram Line Ruger 30 10/22 round mags haven't changed ONE BIT since 1993 or earlier. I have 3 still in the packaging and they look the freaking same as the ones for sale on line today. Of course I follow all laws to the best of my ability and my 6 Ram Line are pre ban because I bought them in 1993.

I just thought the fact that neither the mags or the packaging has changed in the last 30 years may be an interesting fact to some of you.

 

[BTSDOG]

 

[FiremanBob]

Lots of Ma**h***s own 10/22's with the 25 round rotary mags without issue. I don't know if the mags are "pre-ban" or if folks just turn a blind eye because 22.
But I think bringing it to Mass without the Mass license is an issue.
If you plan on bringing the rifle to Mass to go shooting with a Mass resident that is licensed, letting him "borrow" your rifle you are fine. Bringing it to do some plinking by yourself in the woods, no good.

The 10-round mags are rotary. The 15s and 25s are not.

 

[Mesatchornug]

I dunno. This has been beaten to death here on NES. Legal gurus like @Len-2A Training say there’s no competition exemption and @Rob Boudrie says there is.

don’t mean to put you two on the spot

No, I did not say there is - or at least did not intend to.

There is a section of code that purports to offer a competition/gun show exemption, but there are two credible arguments the exemption is illusory.

MGL CH 140 SECTION 131g: "...provided, that such person is a resident of the United States and has a permit or license to carry firearms issued under the laws of any state, district or territory thereof which has licensing requirements which prohibit the issuance of permits or licenses to persons who have been convicted of a felony or who have been convicted of the unlawful use, possession or sale of narcotic or harmful drugs;..."​

1. As far as Len and I both understand there is no state that has a blanket permit/license issuance prohibition on any drug possession, including misdemeanors. The untested argument against this is that another state permits that only allowed for MJ convictions could make the cut if the court saw fit to apply the Fletcher v. Haas decision.
   
   
2. In Commmonwealth v. Cornelius the appellate court held that the new resident 60 day exemption from the LTC requirement does not apply to high capacity firearms since they are not specifically listed, and the legislature could have listed them if it intended. It is possible the same logic could be applied to the competition exemption.

An old saying in the legal world is "bad cases make bad law". In the Cornelius case, part of the background was that the new resident had the guns in the car on school property. Unsympathetic defendants can often tilt the scales of the legal interpretation in favor of conviction and, unfortunately, set bad precedent in doing so.

I have never heard of a competitor getting jammed up on this, but that does not negate either of the above arguments.

---------------------------------------------------------------

As to GOAL's posting at GOAL - Travel Info that contains the following commentary by GOAL:

​

*as used above, “carry” actually means possession of a firearm, unloaded, and locked in a case. This does not mean that an out of state resident can carry concealed or otherwise on his or her person without a MA LTC. The firearm must remain in the case until such time as the competition, hunting, etc. is taking place​

I cannot find this limitation anywhere in the statutes or case law. I think it may be a case of "filling in the blanks based on assumption". If anyone has any specific written authoritative reference enlightenment would be appreciated.

Similarly, there's MGL CH 140 SECTION 131u (I think this is what the 5th note in that section from GOAL was on about):
(u) Any nonresident who is eighteen years of age or older at the time of acquiring a rifle or shotgun from a licensed firearms dealer; provided, however, that such nonresident must hold a valid firearms license from his state of residence; provided, further, that the licensing requirements of such nonresident's state of residence are as stringent as the requirements of the commonwealth for a firearm identification card, as determined by the colonel of the state police who shall, annually, publish a list of those states (*) whose requirements comply with the provisions of this clause.

* Does anyone have a link to that "annually published" list of states whose requirements are "as stringent as" ours? Bueller?

 

[eddy1953]

The 10-round mags are rotary. The 15s and 25s are not.

The 10 round Ruger factory rotary mags are also very reliable. They are the only mags that I use in my own 10/22. Some of those aftermarket mags are unreliable junk. Complete waste of money.

 

[LTCRN]

Makes sense - thanks

? same goes for other calibers ?

From reading the laws (aka bowl of spaghetti) there seems to provisions that exempt .22 cal in some circumstances. Still reading up on it..

Thanks again

Mags that are greater than 10 rounds, have to be preban.
A tube fed rifle, such as a Henry .22 lever action is good to go.
If I'm wrong, I'm sure I'm going to hear it very quickly because it is the NES way!

 

[Broc]

Mags that are greater than 10 rounds, have to be preban.
A tube fed rifle, such as a Henry .22 lever action is good to go.
If I'm wrong, I'm sure I'm going to hear it very quickly because it is the NES way!

This has been beaten to death in 100 different threads. The tube mag is fine.

Also the reason I joined NES was when I was getting my FID because I wasn't a citizen yet (back when they still had those alien FID pieces of paper). And I found a bunch of NES threads talking about how a 10/22 could be purchased with an FID but not every FFL was cool with that. They all went on to explain why, the short explanation "10/22 is not high cap" ... and maybe there was something else to it.

 

[strangenh]

I dunno. This has been beaten to death here on NES. Legal gurus like @Len-2A Training say there’s no competition exemption and @Rob Boudrie says there is.

don’t mean to put you two on the spot

Not talking about the competition exemption. READ the link. Hint: The last item under that list.

 

[strangenh]

#5 on that GOAL list is based on https://malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartI/TitleXX/Chapter140/Section129c - exception (p). Read that exception all the way through.

Over a decade ago, this was discussed on here (link below). (Ignore the parts of that discussion about non-res purchases since that ambiguity has since been "corrected" by the legislature.) IIRC, in PMs, Rob and I went over that subsection (p) in some more detail and eventually GOAL also started looking at that subsection. It had been misread for a long time in part because a certain CoP who writes about MA gun laws, possibly misconstrued it or left it out of discussion on purpose. GOAL has had it correctly stated in their FAQs for at least 12 years now.

Non-Resident "traveling" with Shotgun

If a court has interpreted the statute that way then so be it but I doubt one has. it wouldn't make sense in light of a pretty unambiguous statute.

www.northeastshooters.com

 

[Boghog1]

I wonder if @Dr. Kang Lu could use the ambiguousness of the word carry in MGL C.140 § 131G to his benefit. or maybe he has already tried

 

[DW357]

Not talking about the competition exemption. READ the link. Hint: The last item under that list.

Okay

I just can't imagine that if someone (without a nonresident LTC) were to get pulled over and searched here in MA and they found you were carrying a gun or had guns in the car, you would be let on your way after telling them about Massachusetts general law Chapter 140, §129C
But maybe you would?

Whereas on the flip side if they had a nonresident LTC they can show that to the cop and more than likely be on their way??

I dunno, I guess I just don't trust cops as much as some others here might

No, I did not say there is - or at least did not intend to.

There is a section of code that purports to offer a competition/gun show exemption, but there are two credible arguments the exemption is illusory.

MGL CH 140 SECTION 131g: "...provided, that such person is a resident of the United States and has a permit or license to carry firearms issued under the laws of any state, district or territory thereof which has licensing requirements which prohibit the issuance of permits or licenses to persons who have been convicted of a felony or who have been convicted of the unlawful use, possession or sale of narcotic or harmful drugs;..."​

1. As far as Len and I both understand there is no state that has a blanket permit/license issuance prohibition on any drug possession, including misdemeanors. The untested argument against this is that another state permits that only allowed for MJ convictions could make the cut if the court saw fit to apply the Fletcher v. Haas decision.
   
   
2. In Commmonwealth v. Cornelius the appellate court held that the new resident 60 day exemption from the LTC requirement does not apply to high capacity firearms since they are not specifically listed, and the legislature could have listed them if it intended. It is possible the same logic could be applied to the competition exemption.

An old saying in the legal world is "bad cases make bad law". In the Cornelius case, part of the background was that the new resident had the guns in the car on school property. Unsympathetic defendants can often tilt the scales of the legal interpretation in favor of conviction and, unfortunately, set bad precedent in doing so.

I have never heard of a competitor getting jammed up on this, but that does not negate either of the above arguments.

---------------------------------------------------------------

As to GOAL's posting at GOAL - Travel Info that contains the following commentary by GOAL:

​

*as used above, “carry” actually means possession of a firearm, unloaded, and locked in a case. This does not mean that an out of state resident can carry concealed or otherwise on his or her person without a MA LTC. The firearm must remain in the case until such time as the competition, hunting, etc. is taking place​

I cannot find this limitation anywhere in the statutes or case law. I think it may be a case of "filling in the blanks based on assumption". If anyone has any specific written authoritative reference enlightenment would be appreciated.

Apologies if I misquoted you