Reduced and minimum loads for handguns

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There's an article in the NRA Handloading book (copyright 1981), page 16, "Minimum Loads in Handguns." The author describes a load, 0.75 grains of Bullseye under a 146 grain wadcutter fired from a S&W Chief's Special (2" barrel).

I built the same load except 148 gr. WC and 0.77 grains of BEYE, R-P brass and CCI #500 primers.

Fired with very low report, bullets went down range, except I was pushing primers out - a sign of over pressure.

I've heard of odd things happening with over pressure on reduced loads of fast burning powders, BEYE in particular.

However, this is virtually the same load described in the article.

Can anyone shed any light on this for me?

Thanks.
 
T... I was pushing primers out - a sign of over pressure.

...

Can anyone shed any light on this for me?

Thanks.
There is not enough pressure to push the case back against the breechface but there is enough to unseat the primers. Fairly common and not dangerous but it does make getting the cases back onto the shellholder problematic, if you're a reloader. You would probably be best to increase the powder charge a tiny bit at a time until the problem goes away. The recoil will not be increased enough to matter.

I've heard of odd things happening with over pressure on reduced loads of fast burning powders, BEYE in particular.
I've been reloading on and off for about 40 years and have never heard this before today. You might want to do some more research on this issue.
FWIW, the actual problem is with reduced charges of slow burning powder.
 
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Very low pressure loads using a fast burning powder are know to do this. It's why you have to check your loads. Someone did an article in Shooting Times about under loads and having guns blowup. I don't remember just how they said it, but. An under pressure load of fast burning powder would flash in the case and the pressure would build to quickly and explode. You would not get the kind of burn and pressure you need to fire a round.
 
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There is not enough pressure to push the case back against the breechface but there is enough to unseat the primers. Fairly common and not dangerous but it does make getting the cases back onto the shellholder problematic, if you're a reloader. You would probably be best to increase the powder charge a tiny bit at a time until the problem goes away. The recoil will not be increased enough to matter.


I've been reloading on and off for about 40 years and have never heard this before today. You might want to do some more research on this issue.
FWIW, the actual problem is with reduced charges of slow burning powder.

Well, I've done quit a bit of research on this and it is well known, though there isn't much conclusive data on it. Wm. C. Davis mentions it with Bullseye in his reduced loads article from 25+ years ago, and there are many modern threads on this, for example: http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-180402.html

On your first paragraph, do you have any references for that phenomenon? It's not at all intuitive to me that you'd have enough pressure to launch the 148 grain wadcutter through the barrel and down range, but not push the case back, especially with the firing pin pushing on the primer.
 
Well, I've done quit a bit of research on this and it is well known, though there isn't much conclusive data on it. Wm. C. Davis mentions it with Bullseye in his reduced loads article from 25+ years ago,

I have a lot of respect for Davis' writing and would be interested in reading what he has to say on the subject.

and there are many modern threads on this, for example: http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-180402.html

The only real info in that thread is that Hercules and H.P.White labs were unable to cause a detonation or explosion with light loads of fast burning powder. The rest is all unsupported opinions.
Detonations caused by light charges of slow burning powder in large cases is another matter entirely.

On your first paragraph, do you have any references for that phenomenon? It's not at all intuitive to me that you'd have enough pressure to launch the 148 grain wadcutter through the barrel and down range, but not push the case back, especially with the firing pin pushing on the primer.

I'm sorry that I can't explain this part any better, except to say that I have experienced it in a couple of guns myself. The results of firing leave the primer protruding noticeably, but without the slightest sign of high pressure. This only happens with guns that have a lot of excess headspace and or springy actions, which result in excess headspace.
The best example that I have seen is my 1893 Marlin lever action rifle in .32-40 caliber. With a load of 7 grs. Unique and a 170gr cast bullet, the primers will back out far enough that the cases will not fit back into a standard shellholder. This is a very mild load and there is not the slightest sign, ever, of excess pressure. When the gun is fired with a normal load, the primers remain flush with the case head. There is probably not enough difference between Bullseye in a pistol and Unique in a rifle to make this experience invalid as a point of reference.

I also had a Colt revolver in .38S&W caliber that exhibited the same behavior with light loads. I no longer have the gun, but clearly remember grinding a groove in the top of the shellholder to allow the cases with high primers to be decapped. The gun was , by appearance, in very good condition and the high primers did not happen with full loads.

I think that the reason that the guys that shoot the wax bullets open their primer pockets is to keep this from happening. It might be interesting to check it out.

Since Bullseye powder has been used for light to very light loads for many decades, I firmly believe that there would be warnings in every manual printed for the last 50 years, if this was a real problem. Smattern fact, I doubt that the powder would even continue to be sold.

There is a fair amount of info on the net about "cat sneeze" loads that might offer you some reassurance that light loads of fast powder are not too dangerous.

BTW, try a google search for "primers backing out", there are quite a few folks that think that it happens mostly with light loads and excessive hadspace, if there are not other signs of high pressure.
 
You should look into Hodgon Trail Boss. From what I understand, it was developed for those really, really light loads for the issues you speak of. It looks like fluffy donuts designed to take up volume with low charge weights.
 
Well, I've done quit a bit of research on this and it is well known, though there isn't much conclusive data on it. Wm. C. Davis mentions it with Bullseye in his reduced loads article from 25+ years ago, and there are many modern threads on this, for example: http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-180402.html

On your first paragraph, do you have any references for that phenomenon? It's not at all intuitive to me that you'd have enough pressure to launch the 148 grain wadcutter through the barrel and down range, but not push the case back, especially with the firing pin pushing on the primer.

The phenomenon jhrosier refers to works like this:

Pin hits primer, pushes entire case forward to headspace limit.

Powder ignites and pressure builds.

Case mouth obturates and bullet begins to move forward.

Pressure is insufficient to force case back hard against recoil shield.

However, pressure is sufficient to cause primer cup to move back up against recoil shield.

I don't have any citations to empirical data, but seem to recall anecdotal reports of this happening with squib loads of Bullseye, causing revolver to freeze because protruding primer interfered with cylinder revolution.

Frankly, even with a fast powder, I'd stay away from such loads. By definition, you're outside of the range where component and ammo companies have experimented, under controlled conditions, with enough results to yield the predictability that is essential to achieving long life as a reloader. If you really need something you can shoot at 25 feet in a basement, load some soft lead slugs (like Speer swaged hollow base wadcutters) in a case with only a magnum primer. For a nice target load for "regular" shooting, 2.7 gr. of Bullseye with a 148-grain WC or SWC is a nice light and superbly accurate load.
 
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