If you login to the NRA Instructors portal, they have a new website for training info, totally re-done. It has some info on what we are discussing, FWIW.
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RANT!! NRA Online Training (not a good idea)
- Thread starter yanici
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yanici
NES Member
Can't expect a new shooter to be a marksman. That comes with practice, even though I've seen some new shooters exhibit good target shooting while completing the Basic Pistol class.
yanici
NES Member
Hope I'm not outing myself. I expect shots at least on paper at 20 feet. I do a lot of dry fire and sight alignment work, as well as grip with my students before we shoot and most do very well. Funny, but I find the new female shooters are better shots right out of the gate.
I'm trying to come up with written criteria to submit with my request for a "custom" course. I usually have people shoot .22 at 5 and 7 yards, as well as at least 1 magazine from a "practical" firearm and one cylinder of .38 SPL... So I'm trying to come up with a "fair" course to submit for review.
Mike
MisterHappy
NES Member
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Crazy:
The first issue that I see is the requirement for the instructor to have specific guns (if you submit this, you are the only one with that specific set of tools - I don't have the 686, for instance). Not to say that you are wrong, but getting overly specific can bite you in the ass.
The first issue that I see is the requirement for the instructor to have specific guns (if you submit this, you are the only one with that specific set of tools - I don't have the 686, for instance). Not to say that you are wrong, but getting overly specific can bite you in the ass.
I wouldn't want to have to keep 5 calibers in stock for a basic safety course. Word choice: students, not subjects. If they don't pass the first time, do you provide more ammo at your cost for a second round? Overall, way too specific.
I'm not a Basic Pistol instructor (am a Home Firearm safety instructor though) - I think this is a dumb move if they intend to mandate an online lecture for Basic Pistol and disallow in-person lectures. I'm sure there will plenty of possible students who might think that doing an course is too technologically advanced for them and would rather do everything in-person. Plus, having to pay two separate entities is silly.
yanici
NES Member
Here goes a what if.
What if a person has no access to a computer to take an online course. What if a person doesn't have an email address or a printer to print out an NRA certificate. What if a person doesn't have a credit card to pay for an online course. What if a person can't afford to drive to NH to take the Sig course or maybe doesn't even own a car.
It's hard enough and costly enough already for a person of low income to be able to obtain their guaranteed 2nd Amendment rights. Jesus, talk about a poll tax. We all don't have smart phones and we all don't have internet hook-ups.
I think this online BS is just so wrong in so many ways.
What if a person has no access to a computer to take an online course. What if a person doesn't have an email address or a printer to print out an NRA certificate. What if a person doesn't have a credit card to pay for an online course. What if a person can't afford to drive to NH to take the Sig course or maybe doesn't even own a car.
It's hard enough and costly enough already for a person of low income to be able to obtain their guaranteed 2nd Amendment rights. Jesus, talk about a poll tax. We all don't have smart phones and we all don't have internet hook-ups.
I think this online BS is just so wrong in so many ways.
I guess they can use the public library computers, right? That is what FRB has said (prior admin IIRC) wrt to the eFA-10 system!
![[rofl]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/013.gif "ROFL [rofl]")
However, it is NOT NRA's problem that MA doesn't recognize the 2ndA and requires courses to get a PRIVILEGE (there are no "rights" in MA)!
And as of 1/1 they can still opt for the conventional NRA HFS course almost anywhere.
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You're overdoing it if you specify a specific marksmanship level - that is not required to get a couse approved. Keep the court application simply: You will cover basic gun safety, operation of various gun types, MA law (list out things like safe storage, licensing, etc.), and a bit of federal law. Also include how much time you will spend on each.
That should be enough to get your course approved and issued an "LTC-" number. If you want to be tough on students with regards to marksmanship, you are under no obligation to pass anyone.
My training team offers LTC-013 once a year. It's not an intro course, and most people don't need the certification. One year I had two students from NH who were VERY experienced in the subject material. Although they were "taking" the course, they did a lot of help with the instruction as well, and got their MA certificate.
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I have a 9 page outline based off my powerpoint presentation with legal references, annotations as to what I have videos/animations of, etc. Ill send it your way...
Mike
Sent from my cell phone with a tiny keyboard and large thumbs...
Mike
Sent from my cell phone with a tiny keyboard and large thumbs...
yanici
NES Member
So, Len, you're saying that the NRA Home Safety Course won't be changed to online? I wonder how long that will stay as is. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if the NRA or MA decided to eliminate it.
John, check out my new post in the Training Forum. Read the new info from NRA . . . ALL the courses are intended to change to eLearning according to that info.
yanici
NES Member
This is not good news.
I logged into the instructor's portal but couldn't find that. All I saw was the video.
So, I've been thinking about this, and the reasons it makes me angry at the NRA.
As an instructor:
- It makes me mad that they've basically told us, "we don't trust you to actually teach the course".
- It makes me mad that they've made the "value" (the money we spent on) the packets go to zero.
- It makes me mad that I can't teach friends and family for screamin' deals. (it'll cost *everyone* $50 no matter what, whereas before I could teach friends and family for the cost of packets.)
- I don't want to hand a gun to someone without doing a lot of checking that the student actually learned the material, which takes time we won't be able to charge for.
- My costs don't really go down, (just the cost of the packet) but the amount I can charge will go down a *lot*
But for *non* instructors, it's going to do some bad stuff too:
- You can't take any NRA course without Internet Access, a credit card, email, and a good enough computer
- It'll be impossible to get any sort of group deal, since the NRA doesn't care if you're a single or a group of 12
- students will lose on the interactive learning part, where someone will ask a question about something that the other 8 were confused about, but couldn't articulate it.
- If you *want* to take a class with your buddies or family, there's no way to do that anymore.
- I can't imagine there's $50 worth of education in an online gun safety course. You can read all of the stuff that's in the books online for free. i.e. it's a rip-off.
Sure, there are crappy instructors out there that will basically read the book and call that "teaching", but that problem will exist no matter what. Those crappy instructors will continue to do the bare minimum, fewer shots, more rushed, sloppy attention to shooting skills, way too high a student:coach ratio, &c. But this is a step down in instruction /course quality for anyone who was taking from good instructors.
Every single class I've taught has had *lots* of questions not addressed in the books, all of that is going to get lost.
I'd really like to see this available to those who want it. (e.g. I'd love to be able to tell all my students they can look at the online stuff too) But I really don't like the elimination of in-person instruction. Can you imagine if anyone taught driver's ed that way?
This is entirely separate from the "should instruction be required by law" question, (it shouldn't be) just in case anyone chooses to mis-read what I wrote.
As an instructor:
- It makes me mad that they've basically told us, "we don't trust you to actually teach the course".
- It makes me mad that they've made the "value" (the money we spent on) the packets go to zero.
- It makes me mad that I can't teach friends and family for screamin' deals. (it'll cost *everyone* $50 no matter what, whereas before I could teach friends and family for the cost of packets.)
- I don't want to hand a gun to someone without doing a lot of checking that the student actually learned the material, which takes time we won't be able to charge for.
- My costs don't really go down, (just the cost of the packet) but the amount I can charge will go down a *lot*
But for *non* instructors, it's going to do some bad stuff too:
- You can't take any NRA course without Internet Access, a credit card, email, and a good enough computer
- It'll be impossible to get any sort of group deal, since the NRA doesn't care if you're a single or a group of 12
- students will lose on the interactive learning part, where someone will ask a question about something that the other 8 were confused about, but couldn't articulate it.
- If you *want* to take a class with your buddies or family, there's no way to do that anymore.
- I can't imagine there's $50 worth of education in an online gun safety course. You can read all of the stuff that's in the books online for free. i.e. it's a rip-off.
Sure, there are crappy instructors out there that will basically read the book and call that "teaching", but that problem will exist no matter what. Those crappy instructors will continue to do the bare minimum, fewer shots, more rushed, sloppy attention to shooting skills, way too high a student:coach ratio, &c. But this is a step down in instruction /course quality for anyone who was taking from good instructors.
Every single class I've taught has had *lots* of questions not addressed in the books, all of that is going to get lost.
I'd really like to see this available to those who want it. (e.g. I'd love to be able to tell all my students they can look at the online stuff too) But I really don't like the elimination of in-person instruction. Can you imagine if anyone taught driver's ed that way?
This is entirely separate from the "should instruction be required by law" question, (it shouldn't be) just in case anyone chooses to mis-read what I wrote.
yanici
NES Member
Easy, milktree. You'll have a conniption. Lotta bad things for sure.
Never was at one but those "Women On Target" classes bit they looked good. How will those work now? I suppose you can do the class but not with a certificate. Say, "Mabel, Black Label."
Never was at one but those "Women On Target" classes bit they looked good. How will those work now? I suppose you can do the class but not with a certificate. Say, "Mabel, Black Label."
I plan on submitting my own course for approval hopefully tomorrow. I dont think Ill be comfortable teaching half a class.
Mike
Sent from my cell phone with a tiny keyboard and large thumbs...
Mike
Sent from my cell phone with a tiny keyboard and large thumbs...
yanici
NES Member
Here is an interesting read on this subject. A lot of truisms in the post at this link: http://www.defensivestrategies.org/the-ds-blog/blog/the-nra-and-online-training
CockedAndLocked
Banned
Written by someone who has financial skin in the training game. Objective opinion? Not even close! <yawn>
yanici
NES Member
True that the writer is in the training business but can you identify specific flaws in his statements?
CockedAndLocked
Banned
Oh Christ! I actually have to read this drivel? Okay......
1. Cheating is cheating online or not.
2. Allow printing of a temporary form to be followed by an official form (watermarks/holograms/etc)
3. I guess the Ipad, Kindle, Nexus and all the other tablets/laptops/desktops don't allow the user to read.
4. Yeah, probably quite a few trainers will close shop. However, many more people will have carry permission slips. This is a good thing.
5. Increasing membership is a good thing.
6. Standardized training weeds out the bad instructors. Some, perhaps many, instructors will have to change their business model or do something else. Where are all the buggy whip manufacturers?
7. Nothing online is eliminating the end user from purchasing the same or more extensive training in person. Online opens the training to many more people. This not only a good thing it is a GREAT thing.
8. See the above.
yanici
NES Member
CockedAndLocked
Banned
What? I can't read your reply, because it is on internet. I can't read anything on my computer.
Please print out your reply and send it via U.S. mail.
