Range Report: Two Finn M39's: Sako vs. VKT

Mountain

NES Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2013
Messages
20,799
Likes
29,967
Feedback: 26 / 0 / 0
From the recent sales of M39's, I picked up a standard VKT from the first shipment and then a hand-select Sako from the second round. Sako pictured on top, VKT bottom:

M39 1.jpg

Besides manufacturer, there are a few differences between the two rifles. The primary difference is that the VKT came in war-time stock (rounded joints) vs. the Sako in the arsenal rebuild stock (squared joints):

M39 6.jpg

Though the VKT has seen some gentle [laugh] use, the wood grain seems a little more consistent than on the rebuild Sako stock. The Sako stock is certainly attractive to me and has some typical repair plugs at an area that appears to have had a knot. I would assume that perfect, knot-free Arctic Birch may have been in shorter supply during the rebuild time (1st pic Sako on bottom, 2nd pic Sako on top):

M39 5.jpgM39 2.jpg

If I sell the VKT, think I could list the gouges as 'easily steamed out dings' ? Besides a couple cartouches on the VKT, at the fore grip some soldier had inscribed the letters, 'MM'. Perhaps his initials? A fan of Marilyn Monroe? Marilyn Manson? OK, maybe not... Here's another pic of the two butt stocks, showing some 'character' on the VKT and a longer length of pull for the Sako:

M39 3.jpg

Nothing unusual about the receiver, barrel, trigger, and sights. Bluing is pretty good on both, no rust or pitting that I can see. Barrel rifling is clean, sharp, and bright on both. The shallow depression on top of the Sako's hex is known as a 'Ground Eagle', indicating that the Russian royal eagle symbol was ground off. I don't know if the Finns did that, or if the Ruskies did before selling the receivers to the Finns. Other receiver markings are typical for the M39, AFAIK. Of course the original importer had to ruin the Sako receiver with the etching of their stupid redundant serial number. VKT's importer thoughtfully hid their mark under the end of the barrel.

M39 4b.JPG

So how did they shoot?

Both have a trigger that is a quantum leap better than the triggers on my Russian hex 91/30 and M44 carbine. I was getting some light primer strikes on the Sako and had to crank out the firing pin protrusion a little. Seems like the Sako now has a little heavier pull and the primer strikes are pretty deep, so I think I will back off a tad. I've shot a few surplus silver tips, Herter's, PPU, and Hornady through both rifles with no issues other than the firing pin adjustment for the Sako. Hornady steel cases are a little tight for both rifles. I have heard this before regarding Hornady factory 54R. Bolt closed & opened relatively easily for all other ammo.

Out of the box accuracy (grouping) at 100 yards is pretty good. The VKT shot way high & right with all ammo, so I used a little Kentucky windage. The Sako shot a little high and left with everything but the Hornady, which was close to spot-on. It was a little breezy when I shot the VKT, but the light conditions were pretty good that day. No wind, but a little dark when I finally shot the Sako today. I shoot better when I can see better. Also these groups were shot from the bench- for some reason I shoot better from prone FWIW.

Sako groups shot today on SR-1, 100 yards, from bench, Hornady factory ammo:

M39 Sako groups.jpg

Best VKT group previously shot w/ Hornady, 100 yards, from bench. My Kentucky windage consisted of the lower half of a SR-1 placed low and left of this splatter target. A guy's gotta have something to aim at [smile]:

M39 VKT group.jpg

So both are pretty good shooters. I think in better light & with a little lighter trigger pull the Sako would rival the VKT. Iron sights, old eyes, limited skill... For reference, here's a couple control groups (pun intended)- me shooting iron sights at 100 yards from prone w/ sling, my hand loaded SMK's, good light. 1st pic CMP Special M1 Garand & second pic target from mutt AR with Compass Lake / Krieger barrel. I don't completely suck shooting irons:

Memorial Day M1.jpgAR15 SR-1.jpg

Thanks for reading my rambling & Merry Christmas!
 
Great post! What is the factory year on those? Almost all, if not all M39 were built based on captured rifles from the Russians, after the great war.
There is quite a bit of info here:
http://www.guns.com/review/2014/05/08/the-most-deadly-mosin-in-the-world-the-m39/

Thanks-

Original (Russian) receiver year? I think I'll need to look under the tang for the year. May be a while before I do that. If everything is mounted down nice and solid and the rifle is shooting well, I'll probably leave as-is until I have a reason to pull apart. I've been considering selling one of them to fund an 03a3 and if so would probably take a look under the tang.
 
1/2 click to the left on your front sight will bring you to center. Nice shootin'.

Thanks! Looking forward to working up some nice hand loads for these.

Now to figure out how to get the VKT POI down. That one hits about 6+" high with a 6 o'clock hold on the SR-1 bull. Shop for a taller front sight?
 
Just pick up a short piece of fiber optic and carefully glue it on top of the original?

Doesn't have to be fancy, or very thick wire size. Just a few millimeters will do the trick.
 
Just don't forget, at only 100 yards, that bullet is still on the rise...so if you go out a little further, it might shoot higher still.

I feel like I've wronged myself, but I still haven't been out with either of my m39s from the recent fire sale.
 
Thanks-

Original (Russian) receiver year? I think I'll need to look under the tang for the year. May be a while before I do that. If everything is mounted down nice and solid and the rifle is shooting well, I'll probably leave as-is until I have a reason to pull apart. I've been considering selling one of them to fund an 03a3 and if so would probably take a look under the tang.

this is a wise decision.....it took me for ever to get my mosin shooting good again after I detail cleaned it.
 
Thanks! Looking forward to working up some nice hand loads for these.

Now to figure out how to get the VKT POI down. That one hits about 6+" high with a 6 o'clock hold on the SR-1 bull. Shop for a taller front sight?

the blades are easy to change and should be marked in MM. so you need to find the correct height change to change the height of impact. Im a little forgeting what I learned about tyhe mosins but I believe the M39s barrel should be stamped with the same number on the sight. Like so many things the zero on the battle rifles are a bit different than what we are used to.
the 100 zero is more like a point blank range setting. on 100 you will hit a man sized torso out to 300 with out changing point of aim which is about the belly area for combat.


my math is a bit fuzzy especially " to MM but a 1.1-1.2 mm taller front sight should get you into the center of the black with a 6 oclock hold. Know any machinist? making these front sights should be a cake walk for a ny decent machinist. Personlaay I would make a nice .100" wide front sight and go to a center hold. I can still see a nice fat front sight. Same on the 1903a3 when you get one get rid of the spaghetti blade up front. Bill Bentz makes nice USMC style front sights.
 
Last edited:
mac1911- Yep, I first heard from you regarding leaving a good shooting rifle alone & have witnessed the reason why each time I have taken my M1 Garand apart for a detail & grease. Takes quite a few shots to settle down.

How is the front sight height measured? I can research also. Personally I'd like a replacement sight to be a little narrower than the stock sight- it's now a little thick for the bull. My Garand & AR both have ~the same width and line up nicely for me when sighting, with the bull appearing to be same width as the front sight blade. What I really should do is mount a higher front sight and & file down to set up the next rear sight position '200' for 200 yards. Bit of a problem that I don't have any nearby 200 yard ranges, but I have some work to do before that & need to develop a good hand load first.

Martin08, I like that idea and would try it for general range use, hunting, etc. if there was a way to keep the fiber securely mounted. For vintage rifle matches I'd say it's going to be a no-no, however.

Dakar652- you're missing a real treat. When you pull the trigger on a Finn, it shoots differently than a 91/30 or M44. Much smoother trigger pull and significantly less felt recoil- must be the extra weight and/or a little bit more comfortable butt plate config.

Edit-

VKT has 7.5mm front sight blade. No wonder POI is high. A shopping I will go...

This is one of the shorter ones I have seen on pics of M39's or listed for sale on fleabay, etc. Wondering why somewhere in its history it was set up that way.
 
Last edited:
mac1911- Yep, I first heard from you regarding leaving a good shooting rifle alone & have witnessed the reason why each time I have taken my M1 Garand apart for a detail & grease. Takes quite a few shots to settle down.

How is the front sight height measured? I can research also. Personally I'd like a replacement sight to be a little narrower than the stock sight- it's now a little thick for the bull. My Garand & AR both have ~the same width and line up nicely for me when sighting, with the bull appearing to be same width as the front sight blade. What I really should do is mount a higher front sight and & file down to set up the next rear sight position '200' for 200 yards. Bit of a problem that I don't have any nearby 200 yard ranges, but I have some work to do before that & need to develop a good hand load first.

Martin08, I like that idea and would try it for general range use, hunting, etc. if there was a way to keep the fiber securely mounted. For vintage rifle matches I'd say it's going to be a no-no, however.

Dakar652- you're missing a real treat. When you pull the trigger on a Finn, it shoots differently than a 91/30 or M44. Much smoother trigger pull and significantly less felt recoil- must be the extra weight and/or a little bit more comfortable butt plate config.

Edit-

VKT has 7.5mm front sight blade. No wonder POI is high. A shopping I will go...

This is one of the shorter ones I have seen on pics of M39's or listed for sale on fleabay, etc. Wondering why somewhere in its history it was set up that way.

with the elevation only adjustable through front sight height you need to settle on choice of ammo. if you want to "zero" for 200 then do that. If not after you zero for 100 set it to 200 it should be darn close. With your front sight calibrated to your prefered point of impact to point of aim when you put the rear sight on 200 it should hit about 2" higher at 100 yards

The combat rifles are generally zeroed on the 100meter or if constructed as such the "battle" zero. Like AK sights pull it all the way to the rear and it sits higher than the 100 setting.

Any how think on terms of point blank range. Think in target size. Call it 10" for hit on torso. If you zeroed your rifle set on 100 to hit approx 4-5" high you would hit your 10" target out to about 325 yards and as close as 19 with out changing your point of aim as long as you hold center of that 10" target.
 
Last edited:
There is/was a guy in Texas, Jason Lynch, who made sights for the M39... a rear peep and taller front blade that brought the battle zero in to 100 yards. I have them on my SAKO.

 
Last edited:
Thanks Sweeney-

I'm ordering a set. They look quite nice. If my zero comes in less than 100 yards I'd be happy with that- easy enough to adjust the rear sight upward.
 
I have a commercial made rear M1 carbine sight I have plopped on top of my Mosin a few times and it's just a matter of attaching it.
I like the finish design. Nice that the rear notch just screws on.

Mountain as for the front sight. If your going to shoot cmp vintage with this a nice .072" front sight will fit nicely on the SR target with a center hold. Now that I got a Rx for my eyes that work I went to a center hold again. With the fat sight I can pick up if the front sight is centered much better than the .050" . On my 1903a3 I have the .100" front sight and love it. My scores and groups improved day one with the fat sights.
 
Last edited:
I'll need to measure, but the stock M39 front sight blade is ~.100". To my eyes, too fat on the SR-1 and a little difficult to line up side to side. My absolute best groups are via my match AR. Front sight post for that is .040", so .050" or just a little more should be GTG on the M39 for me.

Main issue for me is that my eyes are not tired when shooting for score. If I'm overseas until Friday night, come Sunday my eyes will still be tired from jet lag. I can compensate for everything else but there's no fooling the eyes- they do what they will. Coffee or Red Bull is also a no-no for me before a match- the groups they will grow. Anyway, I prefer something more narrow than .100".

Edit-

I think that technically, for a Vintage Military Rifle match the replacement rear peep sight is a no-go. Replacement is OK, so long as it is the same type.
 
Last edited:
Local small match like Pembroke probably not a issue. CMP games and Nationals most likely a no go.
 
For some reason this weather is making me want to take my M39 out to the range. It must want to be in its natural habitat.
 
For some reason this weather is making me want to take my M39 out to the range. It must want to be in its natural habitat.

LOL, I was wondering if in this weather my M39's would shoot better than my 91/30. Of course the answer is yes- it shoots better in any weather. [smile]

I do plan to take one to the range, but it's not cold enough yet. Waiting for a below-zero M1 vs. M39 shoot.
 
LOL, I was wondering if in this weather my M39's would shoot better than my 91/30. Of course the answer is yes- it shoots better in any weather. [smile]

I do plan to take one to the range, but it's not cold enough yet. Waiting for a below-zero M1 vs. M39 shoot.

I have one M1 that absolutely loves the cold weather, I shoot it at cmp anytime between jan and march the colder the better. In the warm weather something happens. wood swells or some shit and after 12 rounds the zero walks. its a 1942 and as close to correct as any M1 i own so i dont mess with it.
Mountain you need to wait for the snow and strap on your skis and shoot a CMP match like this Finn_ski_troops.jpg
 
Last edited:
Front blade and rear peep from Jason Lynch just arrived today. Excellent workmanship & promptly shipped. I think you have to catch him when there's a batch available to get them quickly, but from what I've read he always comes through if he's out of stock. Glad mine came quickly. Many thanks to all who mentioned these.

Finally some snow! It's almost M39 weather. Plus I am a complete ski freak in the winter. How 'bout a match like mac1911's pic but Finn vs. Russian Mosins? Human silhouette targets, time limit, etc. Other ideas? Seriously, might be a lot of fun.

Edit, the Russian Mosins can shoot targets at 50 meters to make it fair. [smile]
 
Last edited:
Front blade and rear peep from Jason Lynch just arrived today. Excellent workmanship & promptly shipped. I think you have to catch him when there's a batch available to get them quickly, but from what I've read he always comes through if he's out of stock. Glad mine came quickly. Many thanks to all who mentioned these.

Finally some snow! It's almost M39 weather. Plus I am a complete ski freak in the winter. How 'bout a match like mac1911's pic but Finn vs. Russian Mosins? Human silhouette targets, time limit, etc. Other ideas? Seriously, might be a lot of fun.

Edit, the Russian Mosins can shoot targets at 50 meters to make it fair. [smile]

I,would love to play but I'm so out of shape it's sad. I would be huffing and puffing just getting me gear out of the truck!
 
Reviving an old thread, rather than starting a new one...

Since nobody was dumb enough to do it, one of our forum members paid me twenty bucks to help him dispose of a big bag of Chinese 54R. [wink] OK, maybe I paid a little for the privilege of disposing of this ammo. I heard this stuff shoots relatively accurately and I'll be damned it sure does:

lS15Gjsh.jpg


100 yards, irons, off the bench, bad late day lighting, a little breezy. Took a couple sighters (covered by the black pen on the right side target) then shot the target on the left with whatever mixed headstamps came out of the bag. The ammo had mixed head stamps and depending upon the head stamp, different colored projectiles. Some were copper and some appeared to be brass.

Shot the target to the right after one click up and hand picking a single head stamp. I was at the range doing a little clean up and building of target stands, so I just shot these in a rush and was impressed with the accuracy given my less than full attention to shooting. This ammo appears to shoot the same regardless of head stamp and/or color of projectile.

Anyway, thumbs up [thumbsup] for the Chinese 54R. Anyone know if it's corrosive or not?
 
I've shot other Mosins, but not a Finn. Should try it someday and see what the fuss is about.

t

Working the bolt is as much of a PITA as any other Mosin. The trigger pull and accuracy of the Finn Mosins sets them well apart from any other. Oh, they kick like any other Mosin, LOL. As Boris mentioned, any Mosin touched by drunken Finn hands [cheers] will be a great shooter.
 
im p
Reviving an old thread, rather than starting a new one...

Since nobody was dumb enough to do it, one of our forum members paid me twenty bucks to help him dispose of a big bag of Chinese 54R. [wink] OK, maybe I paid a little for the privilege of disposing of this ammo. I heard this stuff shoots relatively accurately and I'll be damned it sure does:

lS15Gjsh.jpg


100 yards, irons, off the bench, bad late day lighting, a little breezy. Took a couple sighters (covered by the black pen on the right side target) then shot the target on the left with whatever mixed headstamps came out of the bag. The ammo had mixed head stamps and depending upon the head stamp, different colored projectiles. Some were copper and some appeared to be brass.

Shot the target to the right after one click up and hand picking a single head stamp. I was at the range doing a little clean up and building of target stands, so I just shot these in a rush and was impressed with the accuracy given my less than full attention to shooting. This ammo appears to shoot the same regardless of head stamp and/or color of projectile.

Anyway, thumbs up [thumbsup] for the Chinese 54R. Anyone know if it's corrosive or not?
im pretty sure its corrosive. It shot well for me also out of my M44. Keep your eyes open for the brass cased Russian match 54r. that's to a mosin what the GP11 is to the k31
 
Back
Top Bottom