Range qualification question

bsimardjr

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I am on a committee at my club that is looking into qualifications for our ranges. Because of damage to some of our ranges we are looking at whether we should qualify members to use the ranges our just review the rules better with them.

So what I am looking for is what kind of checks do your clubs do if any and is access to the ranges restricted in any way like key card access?
 
I am on a committee at my club that is looking into qualifications for our ranges. Because of damage to some of our ranges we are looking at whether we should qualify members to use the ranges our just review the rules better with them.

So what I am looking for is what kind of checks do your clubs do if any and is access to the ranges restricted in any way like key card access?

I don't see that range qualification does any good. All it does is establish that the member can put rounds on paper. It doesn't protect against stupidity.

Look a MRA. They have key card access, range quals, video cameras, etc. They still have lane damage.
 
Nashua F&G has range quals on each range. It is a royal PITA. Each range has slightly different rules and requirements. I have been a member for more than a year and have never made the rare range qualifications for any of the ranges.
 
You can qualify all the people you want, it won't stop the ones that destroy club property on purpose, just need to catch them and give them the boot.
 
I suggest that clubs utilize video and basic range quals:

One would hope that stupid and malicious demeanor would be caught on video and the dinks could be thrown out!

The basic range quals are more to promote success than anything else. I've met a ton of people at various ranges that want to succeed but have never learned proper firing fundamentals. A personable and knowledgable Club Committee could be set up to verify new members understanding of the basic firing fundamentals with a simple qual. Those that lack the basics get a "free" course or review of the firing fundamentals. I see it as a win-win. Clubs see less property damage and shooters see greater hits on target!

These simple programs have greatly reduced property damage while providing a positive atmosphere for new member participation.

We all benefit when range users can keep their shots on range property.
 
If you are going to go down the quals road, whatever you do, make it convenient for the members to get qualified. If it is a pain in the ass people will just start leaving the club for any of the myriad of other clubs that don't require quals- and chances are the people you will be pissing off are not the people causing damage, either.

Another thing to keep an eye on is unauthorized use. Some of the damage you are seeing might be caused by people who aren't members of the club. This happens more often than you probably realize. There's no sense in taking it out on the members if it's actually caused by someone who doesn't even belong there.... you run the risk of making people jump through hoops that might not even be the ones causing the problem. Think about this for a minute.... at most outdoor gun clubs, it's trivially easy to get access to facilities, and at most of them, most people don't ever ping you to see a membership card or anything.

-Mike
 
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no qualifications needed at my club. follow basic posted rules and you will be alright. dr grant is right, most of the damage is done by non members. we dont have some sitting there on the different ranges but we will check them out on occassion, when we hear them being used.
 
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At my club you need a check, an NRA membership, and a successful club interview...which amounts to standing up at a meeting, telling us your name and a few good things about yourself and answering a few questions from members.

The purpose of going to the range is to practice, learn, and improve skills. If all ranges required skill where would all the newbies go to learn? I've seen skilled long time shooters obtain guns that they couldn't get on the backboard, let alone the paper for the first few shots. Damage is going to happen sometimes.


Guns and Ammo had a good back page article a few months ago about Range Nazis and rediculous range rules driving membership away from ranges. It should be mandatory reading for everyone joining a range and for everyone elected to a BOD position.
 
I suggest that clubs utilize video and basic range quals:

One would hope that stupid and malicious demeanor would be caught on video and the dinks could be thrown out!
Unfortunately, video is not detailed enough to figure out whose shots missed the backstop. All the video shows is who was shooting when, which you already know from the logbook.
 
The only place you need any real qualification is our indoor range. You do have to qualify for outdoors, but it only consists of reviewing range rules. For the indoor range you need to put 5 shots on paper at 35 feet. You get 5 shots and one try per day. You need to log in and you also need a key card to gain access. Before you shoot you check the range for damage and note it in the book. The C.R.O. reviews it regularly and takes any appropriate action. Our ranges are mostly monitored by members. We do not have any problems with intentional damage.
 
I'm a member at Westford. We have a basic Range Safety class for the outdoor ranges, then we get an "Orange card" that we have to wear when we shoot. For the indoor pistol we have to put 5 shots on paper at 60' under observation. We then get a unique access code for the indoor range, which also has video. I agree, it won't show specific instances of damage, but if somebody shoots straight up, that'll be kinda obvious. There's a plan to put video on the rifle ranges eventually also. Personally, I think there's already too much surveillance in my life, but fixing stupid gets expensive after a while, and I think knowing the cameras are there will keep people a little more conscious.

Aside from that, there's a pass-code protected main gate with a keypad, which serves to keep most non-members out. Real friendly place, haven't run into a Fudd or range-Nazi yet:)
 
Unfortunately, video is not detailed enough to figure out whose shots missed the backstop. All the video shows is who was shooting when, which you already know from the logbook.


Properly placed, video can show target placement, firing line, who isn't picking up after themselves and users shooting at unauthorized targets (glass, trash and the like). Time stamped video can also be used as proof that the bullets hitting someone's house didn't come from a particular range and came from dingdongs shooting in the woods without a proper backstop! Taunton R&P has great video placement! Clubs can learn a lot from their learning curve.

Those that sign the logbook probably aren't the problem.

Don't get me wrong......I really dislike SOP based on hear say and myth.

Tell members what they need to do to prevent problems for both parties. Provide training/learning opportunities and be quick about dumping the asshats.
 
Quals suck and they probably won't help. First you will have to qualify, then have to use approved targets and finally limit the number of rounds in a magazine.
 
Aside from that, there's a pass-code protected main gate with a keypad, which serves to keep most non-members out. Real friendly place, haven't run into a Fudd or range-Nazi yet:)

Gates don't do a damned thing to determined freeloaders. The gate is to keep members from letting their membership lapse, like a constant reminder to renew when the time comes. [grin]

I know this because a club I was a member at, I caught people at the archery practice area using it who weren't members. They just parked on the road and walked around the gate. They tried to blow smoke up my ass ("I forgot my key") but suddenly they were packing their shit up about 60 seconds after they saw me setting up. (If they were real members they would have had ear/eye pro with them, and they seemed to be disturbed upon seeing me put a couple of evil black rifles on the table, as well as an M1 Garand... )

I really was hoping they would have stuck around, so I could have asked him what the color of the boathouse was.... [rofl]

-Mike
 
Quals suck and they probably won't help. First you will have to qualify, then have to use approved targets and finally limit the number of rounds in a magazine.

Sorry that your club has "that" rule!

Can you explain wht quals suck? Why won't they help? Sounds like your club may need a by-law change...for the better!
 
Sorry that your club has "that" rule!

Can you explain wht quals suck? Why won't they help? Sounds like your club may need a by-law change...for the better!

My club doesn't have any of "Those" rules. that is why I am a member there. We can even shoot full auto and 50 BMG. Yours?

Quals suck for a whole bunch of reasons. First, where is a new shooter going to practice so they can qualify? They can't do it at the club... they're not qualified.

Second, how will they have to qualify? By caliber? or by range? Both are stupid. If you qualify with a 9mm and then buy a .45 you have to re qualify? If one range has a roof and the other a berm is it ok to shoot into the air outside? Is it ok to stand infront of the iring line on one and not the other? Is it acceptable to load a magazine after the cease fire light goes off on the outdoor range but not the indoor range?

Damage to the facility occurs when people are careless or negligent and maybe even malicious. None of these things are going to occur during a qualification. The member will be on his best behavior, he will kiss your ring, and you will bless him as qualified. All you have accomplished is to prove that you are the Grand Poobah, and that he can be a good boy when you are watching him.

If I were faced with trying to combat range damage, I would make every member read and sign a copy of the rules, maybe attend a 10 minute meeting or watch a short video that I would make very convenient, and start tossing members that broke the rules. I would send an email to all members whenever a member was booted out explaining why they got booted and remind them of the rules.

I went through 4 qualifications in my life. M-16a2 in 1985 - qualified expert. 1911 - .45 in 1985. M-60 1986; MA2( MaDuece) .50 caliber machine gun in 1986, and with all due respect to any gun club, if they forced me to qualify before i could shoot my new 1911 or AR or Rem 700 I would just join another club.

ETA - At the end of the day, it's your club. If making your members qualify or otherwise jump through hoops to make you feel better, knock yourself out. I already belong to a club and when members break the rules they through them out
 
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Fencer, no personal attack on you friend! I ask questions on NES because I get great answers! I share this info with others that may not see it here.

I happen to be a member of the Worcester Pistol & Rifle Club in Boylston. I have also served as Executive Officer, Building Committee member, IDPA Committee member and Small Bore Coach.

The Club has "just enough rules". We too can shoot 50.BMG and Full Auto.

Many new members have taken a quality shooting course and can place good shots on target. Those that have not been taught the fundamentals absolutely should have oppurtunities to learn this stuff. Shooting is not inate.

You pose really good questions. A good BoD can easily create SOP to make it a win / win. I simply don't believe a club should gamble on a new member stating that they can "be safe and keep rounds on property". If you can demonstrate basic fundamentals with a 9mm pistol, you should be able to demonstrate proper fundamentals with a 50 BMG rifle. If you can't, the club should be able to provide basic instruction.

Thanks for your service by the way.
 
...........Quals suck for a whole bunch of reasons. First, where is a new shooter going to practice so they can qualify? They can't do it at the club... they're not qualified.

Second, how will they have to qualify? By caliber? or by range? Both are stupid. If you qualify with a 9mm and then buy a .45 you have to re qualify?............................................................................

If I were faced with trying to combat range damage, I would make every member read and sign a copy of the rules, maybe attend a 10 minute meeting or watch a short video that I would make very convenient, and start tossing members that broke the rules. I would send an email to all members whenever a member was booted out explaining why they got booted and remind them of the rules.......................................


At our club the only place you need to qualify is indoors. Outdoor qualification is a review of the rules. Indoors you can only shoot up to the caliber you qualified with. Bring your biggest gun and know how to use it. If you can't shoot it go outside and practice. If you can shoot a 9mm accurately there is no reason you can't shoot a .45 and hit the paper.

Making someone read the rules and watch a video will not stop idiots from shooting up a range or causing damage. All clubs have rules and still have problems. We have disciplinary action for people disobeying rules, usually a suspension. Do it again and you are gone. Intentionally damaging property or being a danger you are gone.

Anytime you go to our club you can expect to find a range officer somewhere. We do not have any running the club, but almost all of the regulars are also range officers. We are everywhere and unless you know who we are you don't really know we are there. We are not range Nazi's we just happen to like to shoot a lot. We are self monitored and anybody can question anybody they see acting in an unsafe manor.
 
Sorry that your club has "that" rule!

Can you explain wht quals suck? Why won't they help? Sounds like your club may need a by-law change...for the better!

There are numerous reasons why most qualifications suck. (an exception MAY be something like Reading, where they may want to confirm you can keep the rounds on the range, due to the distance) Additionally, MRA is a shining example. They have some of the strictest rules and qualifications around. They also have key cards and video. They frequently have range damage.

First, what do qualifications establish? Only that you have the capability to hit a specific target at a specific distance with a specific rifle on one occasion. It doesn't protect against poor gun handling. It doesn't protect against intentional damage. It doesn't protect against the idiot sighting in his rifle without bore sighting it first. It doesn't protect against the novice shooter putting a pistol target at 100 ft. It doesn't protect against general stupidity and buffoonery. I don't believe ranges are typically shot up due to poor marksmanship. You can take most people, give them a quick lesson, and get them to put holes in paper first time. I believe range damage is mostly from people doing dumb things. You aren't going to filter those people with a range test. You're only going to confirm they have the capability, not the common sense. Even then, it's not going to protect the range from the friends and children these people bring.

Video Cameras are ok if you spend the money on the quality ones, then have the desire and manpower to watch the video. Someone discovers range damage on Wednesday. After running through the log and contacting members, you determine it was last known to be unbroken on Sunday. Now you sift through video trying to determine each shot placement from each shooter for days. It's time consuming and tiring. If it's a safety issue, it's important. If it's just damage, you could probably repair it in the time it takes you to find the shooter, IF you ever do.

I've run ranges. It's my most humble opinion that the easiest thing to do is make the retrieval system simple and easily repairable, then push the members to police themselves. Expect damage. If the club grows past the "family atmosphere", it's going to take more damage. Do your best to make it safe and easy to fix.
 
Martlet said it perfectly

Thanks. I didn't even get into the inconvenience of the member. One of the reasons I left MRA was not being able to use the outdoor range. They were strict on when they'd give the qualifications, and twice I showed up at the appointed time only to have nobody there to give them.
 
Fencer, no personal attack on you friend! I ask questions on NES because I get great answers! I share this info with others that may not see it here.

I happen to be a member of the Worcester Pistol & Rifle Club in Boylston. I have also served as Executive Officer, Building Committee member, IDPA Committee member and Small Bore Coach.

The Club has "just enough rules". We too can shoot 50.BMG and Full Auto.

Many new members have taken a quality shooting course and can place good shots on target. Those that have not been taught the fundamentals absolutely should have oppurtunities to learn this stuff. Shooting is not inate.

You pose really good questions. A good BoD can easily create SOP to make it a win / win. I simply don't believe a club should gamble on a new member stating that they can "be safe and keep rounds on property". If you can demonstrate basic fundamentals with a 9mm pistol, you should be able to demonstrate proper fundamentals with a 50 BMG rifle. If you can't, the club should be able to provide basic instruction.

Thanks for your service by the way.



My problem there is, many people take the Basic Firearms Safety that doesnt have any live shooting. To me, those types of qualifications hinder range access to those people, hurting their ability to practice to get better at shooting.
 
Thanks. I didn't even get into the inconvenience of the member. One of the reasons I left MRA was not being able to use the outdoor range. They were strict on when they'd give the qualifications, and twice I showed up at the appointed time only to have nobody there to give them.

That is precisely why I have yet to qualify outside at MRA. I cant always be there when they are there or vice a versa. I renewed there for this year but may not next year. I have no issue with being able to pass their "qualifications" its a convenience thing right now.
 
Sorry that your club has "that" rule!

Can you explain wht quals suck? Why won't they help? Sounds like your club may need a by-law change...for the better!

The biggest problem with qualifying before you can shoot is that it scares away new shooters. I grew up shooting but I've also taught new shooters proper gun handling and helped them learn to shoot properly. Problem is not everyone that starts shooting has that help. How many new shooters have you seen with a 2 inch .357 mag or a little .380 belly gun as a first gun? How do you expect someone like that to go qualify right out of the box with those? Unless you want to conduct full on training for new members to help them qualify you are going to discourage new shooters and potentially turn them into non shooters. Do you want your club to be known as unfriendly? Do you want new shooters to think all clubs are snobbish to new shooters? I've been shooting over 40 years and I don't know if I'd be comfortable qualifying at a new club. I've been very uncomfortable with the new cameras my club installed. Enough so that I've been considering whether I want to renew my membership there.
 
For a well rounded review of what happens in the "event of" you might want to talk to the folks at Southboro <www.srgclub.com> who did have a round leave the range and what was necessary to reopen the pistol and rifle range. As list members have quite correctly pointed out, you probably can not stop/prevent damage or accidents, however, you DO need to be able help protect the club from unintended consequences. Some of those ways are: practical ranges rules, consistent enforcement (not range nazis), access control, vidoes and training. Our membership <www,hsasports.com) continues to grow.
 
OK seeing I started this I will give my thoughts. I don't like the idea of having to shoot a certain score to qualify or to qualify with different calibers. My idea of qualifying is being able to handle the firearm and knowing & understanding the rules. I am part of a committee at another club with just an indoor pistol range and we have anybody who wants unrestricted access to the range meet with us and go over the rules then shoot with their firearm. As long as they show the ability to be safe and keep the bullets down range we are good. The whole qualifying is less about the damage because some of that is due to the design of the range (this is being addressed) it is more about keeping the range/club open. Jgreen put it very well when he posted this I simply don't believe a club should gamble on a new member stating that they can "be safe and keep rounds on property". If we can't do this we all will be looking for another place to shoot.
 
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