Questions on Precision bullets...

Paleoman

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I bought 250 of the 230 gr .45 ACP and 250 of the 125gr 9mm bullets to try them, instead of Berry's RN plated bullets. Had a few questions for the community...

I have the 230gr FN bullets in and will try them as soon as I finish off the remainder of Berrys bullets. I've never worked with FN and want to understand how to adjust things.

1) Will the CFE pistol powder work OK with these?

2) I'm assuming I'll do the same as Berrys and work up load from staring lead data for CFE?

3) I use Dillon dies (in a 650). Do I switch the seating die head
? I think it has a RN and FP side.

4) I currently use OAL Of 1.255-1.258" for the Berrys. It was suggested to try 1.230" to start with and shorten, if it doesn't work. How do I check? Just see if they chamber ok (I only have one pistol for .45 ACP)? Just rely on the cartridge gauge? With the RN, I think I just matched a factory round.

5) Do I need to change the powder die to flare more than Berrys? How do I tell how much to bell?

6) Is it an ok plan to just barely crimp, and then try in gauge, and increase crimp, until cartridge gauges ok? That's what I recall doing with the cartridges for Berrys bullets.

7) I recall reading discussion on leading in the barrel. Has anyone experienced more or less fouling with these? Is it dependent on the barrel? I've been using a bore snake for cleaning my barrels, so Not sure how to tell (other than looking in the barrel, which seems clean). Hopefully this won't cause a holy war on gun cleaning techniques :)

8) Anything specific to the 9mm that I should be aware of? I think they are going to be RN. They should arrive this week, but I still have 1K of the Berrys to use up first.

Any other insight would be welcome!
 
The short answer is: "It's pistol ammo. It doesn't really matter. If your gun cycles, and the ammo feeds and ejects, call it good."

No offense, but you.. um.. seem to overthink things.
 
Anyway, to specifically answer your questions:

1) Yes, if you can find data.

2) Sure, but the starting loads are almost always too low. Start in the middle and see how they shoot.

3) Try both, but you'll probably not see much of a difference.

4)If they feed reliably, you're good.

5) Flare a lot. If they won't fit into the seating die, you're flaring too much.

6) Yes

7) As long as the bullets are not too hard or too small, you won't see leading.

8) Make sure the rounder-shaped lead bullets don't touch the lands. This should not be an issue if you find C.O.A.L. data specifically for lead.


If you're going to load lead bullets, you should really use a separate crimp die (which you're doing if you load on a 650).
 
Regarding lead fouling using coated bullets, I load some Smurfy stuff, and I haven't had any issue of lead fouling through a .45 1911 or my 9mm Glock with a stock barrel. This is with Clays and Win 231 pushing 147 gr at 855; 200 gr at 850; and 230 gr at 740 fps. With 125 gr pushing past 1000 fps, your experience may be different, but you will know pretty early on I expect.

For case flare, open it up just enough so that you can seat the bullet without shaving the coating off.
 
I bought 250 of the 230 gr .45 ACP and 250 of the 125gr 9mm bullets to try them, instead of Berry's RN plated bullets. Had a few questions for the community...

I have the 230gr FN bullets in and will try them as soon as I finish off the remainder of Berrys bullets. I've never worked with FN and want to understand how to adjust things.

1) Will the CFE pistol powder work OK with these?

2) I'm assuming I'll do the same as Berrys and work up load from staring lead data for CFE?

3) I use Dillon dies (in a 650). Do I switch the seating die head
? I think it has a RN and FP side.

4) I currently use OAL Of 1.255-1.258" for the Berrys. It was suggested to try 1.230" to start with and shorten, if it doesn't work. How do I check? Just see if they chamber ok (I only have one pistol for .45 ACP)? Just rely on the cartridge gauge? With the RN, I think I just matched a factory round.

5) Do I need to change the powder die to flare more than Berrys? How do I tell how much to bell?

6) Is it an ok plan to just barely crimp, and then try in gauge, and increase crimp, until cartridge gauges ok? That's what I recall doing with the cartridges for Berrys bullets.

7) I recall reading discussion on leading in the barrel. Has anyone experienced more or less fouling with these? Is it dependent on the barrel? I've been using a bore snake for cleaning my barrels, so Not sure how to tell (other than looking in the barrel, which seems clean). Hopefully this won't cause a holy war on gun cleaning techniques :)

8) Anything specific to the 9mm that I should be aware of? I think they are going to be RN. They should arrive this week, but I still have 1K of the Berrys to use up first.

Any other insight would be welcome!

Precision handgun bullets....? jk :p
 
I run range scrap cast bullets in a SW 39-2 i have no idea what the velocity is. Its just enough to cycle 100%
i have no leading and I dont clean my barrel often maybe after 500 rounds or once a year to make sure there is some oil in it for protection.

My only experience with purchased cast bullets is they where undersized and very hard alloy...
 
I've been using Precision coated bullets for 9, 40, 45. Don't notice any excessive leading.

For loading them, treat them as lead as far as the loading manuals go, all other reloading rules are same/same.

When in doubt, listen to EddieCoyle ;-)
 
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Regarding lead fouling using coated bullets, I load some Smurfy stuff, and I haven't had any issue of lead fouling through a .45 1911 or my 9mm Glock with a stock barrel. This is with Clays and Win 231 pushing 147 gr at 855; 200 gr at 850; and 230 gr at 740 fps. With 125 gr pushing past 1000 fps, your experience may be different, but you will know pretty early on I expect.

For case flare, open it up just enough so that you can seat the bullet without shaving the coating off.

Do you think that will be more flaring than what I already do for the coated Berrys bullets?
 
Anyway, to specifically answer your questions:

1) Yes, if you can find data.

2) Sure, but the starting loads are almost always too low. Start in the middle and see how they shoot.

3) Try both, but you'll probably not see much of a difference.

4)If they feed reliably, you're good.

5) Flare a lot. If they won't fit into the seating die, you're flaring too much.

6) Yes

7) As long as the bullets are not too hard or too small, you won't see leading.

8) Make sure the rounder-shaped lead bullets don't touch the lands. This should not be an issue if you find C.O.A.L. data specifically for lead.


If you're going to load lead bullets, you should really use a separate crimp die (which you're doing if you load on a 650).

Thanks for the responses! A few follow-ups...


On 3) So you don't think it will affect the length with the different seating head? What was the purpose for Dillon to provide the two types? (just curious).

On 5) Will flaring be more than with the plating bullets I'm running now?

On 7) Probably internet rumors. I thought I read someone complaining that they caused more fouling, and then someone else saying they fouled less. Looking to hear from people with experience with the Precision Bullets (moly coated).

On 8) Can you elaborate more? Are you say not to have the bullet touch, where the rifling starts (is that the lands?)? How can I tell if that is happening? I have the barrels of the two 9mm that I shoot, and a case gauge.
 
The different seating heads are needed for the different bullet profiles.
Ex I load some 45cal 185 grain HPs.
If I use the seating stem for the round nose bullet profile the stem is pushing on the very tip of the bullet. You want you seating stem to push against the ogive along its largest surface.
If the bullet and seating stem profile does not match you will either be pushing from the tip or the leading edge of the stem will dig into the ogive.
I'm not sure if moly coated is a problem with pistol bullets but I tried rifle and the moly was a mess.
Your COAL will always change when you change something. Different bullet profiles, seating stems and such.
I have just used a sharpie to color bullets and chamber a dummy round to see if it hits the lands.

For flare... I load a lot of cast. I only flare enough for the bullet to start with out shaving lead off.
Basically the flare will take on the leading edge of the bullet..
As for crimp...I personally on my pistol ammo only crimp enough to remove the crimp for taper and roll crimp just enough to have the roll crimp noticeable.
 
The short answer is: "It's pistol ammo. It doesn't really matter. If your gun cycles, and the ammo feeds and ejects, call it good."

No offense, but you.. um.. seem to overthink things.

Fair assessment. I'm relatively new to reloading (9 mos), and am very detail oriented (anal?) by nature. I strive to get a solid understanding of the why and how for the process and in this case, trying to learn how I alter the process I was doing with plated, to deal with coated bullets. I tend to be cautious about the whole process - treating ammunition with the same level of respect as the handling of handguns.

Seeking practical advice, from people like yourself, who have solid experience.

- - - Updated - - -

Just to clarify, the bullets are from Precision Bullets (http://www.precisionbullets.com/index.php). Someone mentioned in a PM that there are similarly named companies out there.
 
The different seating heads are needed for the different bullet profiles.
Ex I load some 45cal 185 grain HPs.
If I use the seating stem for the round nose bullet profile the stem is pushing on the very tip of the bullet. You want you seating stem to push against the ogive along its largest surface.
If the bullet and seating stem profile does not match you will either be pushing from the tip or the leading edge of the stem will dig into the ogive.
I'm not sure if moly coated is a problem with pistol bullets but I tried rifle and the moly was a mess.
Your COAL will always change when you change something. Different bullet profiles, seating stems and such.
I have just used a sharpie to color bullets and chamber a dummy round to see if it hits the lands.

For flare... I load a lot of cast. I only flare enough for the bullet to start with out shaving lead off.
Basically the flare will take on the leading edge of the bullet..
As for crimp...I personally on my pistol ammo only crimp enough to remove the crimp for taper and roll crimp just enough to have the roll crimp noticeable.
Thanks for the tip on the sharpie! I'm hoping to try to do some of the new bullets this weekend or next, so I'll give that a try.
 
if your seating stem does not fit the ogive it can mark or damage the bullet. These bullets require a special seating stem or the "regular" stem hits the ogive and marks it. This is not to bad of an example I just dont have any pictures of any cast pistol bullets with seating stem damage.
uMovPtf.jpg
you can see the "ring" just below the polymer tip from the seating stem. on these nosler bullets this stem does not mark or damage the tipped bullets as much but if i use this stem on a Hornady polymer tipped bullets it will damage the bullet....the hornady stem that comes with hornady dies will actually kink and or collapse the area just below the tip Hornady sells a special seating die just for their polymer tipped bullets.

A pistol example is i used a special wad cutter seating plug on 45cal 230 RN cast bullets and it cut a deep line into the ogive area of the round nose bullet. They functioned just fine and accuracy was not a issue as i was still able to shoot just fine and shot my average plus a few points more. shooting cmp service pistol
 
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Do you think that will be more flaring than what I already do for the coated Berrys bullets?

You mean more than for Berrys plated bullets? I don't know. It seemed like I had to flare more for .45 then I did for 9mm overall, but I didn't notice a difference between coated and plated for .45. I never loaded plated 9mm. My suggestion is try it with the setting that you have now. If it works, leave it. If you need more flare, adjust it. Load a batch of dummies (10 should do) so you can function test the gun with the new bullet profile and keep an eye on it to check if the flare is enough.
 
I find that most people flare too little. As long as the case mouth fits into the seating and crimping die(s), there's little need to be stingy on the flare.

You're much better off with slightly more than you need than slightly less than you need.
 
As for crimp...I personally on my pistol ammo only crimp enough to remove the crimp for taper and roll crimp just enough to have the roll crimp noticeable.
Alot of people on the web don't recomend a roll crimp for this cartrage. I roll crimp everything with good results.
 
I find that most people flare too little. As long as the case mouth fits into the seating and crimping die(s), there's little need to be stingy on the flare.

You're much better off with slightly more than you need than slightly less than you need.
Thanks!


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>1) Will the CFE pistol powder work OK with these?

As well as any other powder. Note: Precision Bullets are swaged and coated and, in my guns, are VERY accurate.

>2) I'm assuming I'll do the same as Berrys and work up load from staring lead data for CFE?

You ALWAYS start at the start load.

>3) I use Dillon dies (in a 650). Do I switch the seating die head
? I think it has a RN and FP side.

It has a RN and a SWC side. Find the one that fits best.

>4) I currently use OAL Of 1.255-1.258" for the Berrys. It was suggested to try 1.230" to start with and shorten, if it doesn't work. How do I check? Just see if they chamber ok (I only have one pistol for .45 ACP)? Just rely on the cartridge gauge? With the RN, I think I just matched a factory round.

If you think about it, the limiting factor to COL is the length where the bullet ogive contacts the barrel's lede.
Now, let's just say that you go from a RN to a RNFP. The point of contact on the ogive might be the same, but you have LOST the RN part of the bullet that extends beyond the FP, so the COL will be shorter. Then, in this case, you have a conical ogive instead of a round/curved ogive, so the COL before contacting the lede will be longer.
So, learn to find the COL that works for you in your gun for every bullet.
Your COL (Cartridge Overall Length) is determined by your barrel (chamber and throat dimensions) and your gun (feed ramp) and your magazine (COL that fits magazine and when the magazine lips release the round for feeding) and the PARTICULAR bullet you are using. What worked in a pressure barrel or the lab's gun or in my gun has very little to do with what will work best in your gun.
Take the barrel out of the gun. Create two inert dummy rounds (no powder or primer) at max COL and remove enough case mouth flare for rounds to chamber (you can achieve this by using a sized case—expand-and-flare it, and remove the flare just until the case "plunks" in the barrel).
Drop the inert rounds in and decrease the COL until they chamber completely. This will be your "max" effective COL. I prefer to have the case head flush with the barrel hood (or a few mils higher than where the head of an empty case aligns with the barrel, as all cases are too short and I prefer to minimize head space). After this, place the inert rounds in the magazine and be sure they fit the magazine and feed and chamber.
You can also do this for any chambering problems you have. Remove the barrel and drop rounds in until you find one that won't chamber. Take that round and "paint" the bullet and case black with Magic Marker or other marker. Drop this round in the barrel and rotate it back-and-forth.
Remove and inspect the round:
1) Scratches on bullet--COL is too long
2) Scratches on edge of the case mouth--insufficient crimp
3) Scratches just below the case mouth--too much crimp, you're crushing the case
4) Scratches on case at base of bullet--bullet seated crooked due to insufficient case expansion (not case mouth flare) or improper seating stem fit
5) Scratches on case just above extractor groove--case bulge not removed during sizing. May need a bulge buster.

>5) Do I need to change the powder die to flare more than Berrys? How do I tell how much to bell?

It really is hard to over-flare (and not know it) and, even if you do, it isn't anything important. For all lead and plated bullets, you should flare MORE than for jacketed bullets. Of course, ALL your cases should be lightly chamfered inside and out. This will prevent any burrs from damaging the bullet.
For all lead and plated bullets, you should seat one, crimp, pull the bullet, and verify that there is no damage to the bullet from the case mouth from improper seating or crimping and the bullet diameter hasn't changed.
PS: more rounds have been ruined by not flaring enough than cases have been over-worked by flaring too much.

>6) Is it an ok plan to just barely crimp, and then try in gauge, and increase crimp, until cartridge gauges ok? That's what I recall doing with the cartridges for Berrys bullets.

Yes, or, if you have a factory round, crimp just like that.

7) I recall reading discussion on leading in the barrel. Has anyone experienced more or less fouling with these? Is it dependent on the barrel? I've been using a bore snake for cleaning my barrels, so Not sure how to tell (other than looking in the barrel, which seems clean). Hopefully this won't cause a holy war on gun cleaning techniques :)

>Why are you even trying these bullets if you are so worried? The COATING, just like Lee Liquid Alox, is a barrier to keep the lead from contacting the bore. Unless you damaged the coating, you won't get leading. If these were regular lead bullets, I would tell you to slug your barrel, or go to a gunsmith, and buy bullets that are at least 0.001" LARGER than the barrel's actual groove diameter.
Even IF you got some leading, all you need to do is buy All-Copper "Chore-Boy" copper scrub pads, cut off some and wrap around a brass brush and all leading will be removed in one minute or less.
I get NO leading with Precision Bullets (then, I get no leading with properly sized lead bullets either)

8) Anything specific to the 9mm that I should be aware of? I think they are going to be RN. They should arrive this week, but I still have 1K of the Berrys to use up first.

So, Precision is finally extending their line with RN bullets?
Have fun.
 
Awesome info noylj! Lots to digest (will print and read over a few times).

On #7. I'm not worried about the bullets. I had read a post somewhere of someone complaining about leading. Wanted to hear other opinions, especially from folks using these, to separate the FUD from reality. Sounds like it was someone maybe improperly preparing the cartridges, or blaming these for other issues they are seeing. It just gave me a bit of a pause, as I was wondering how I would know if I was ever to experience leading. Being new to handguns (about a year now), and just cleaning my barrels with a bore snake, I was curious as to how I would tell.

So with lead bullets you slug the barrel to determine the size of lead bullet to make? Not sure I'll ever go that route some day, but curious. I'm more interested in economically making bullets so I can shoot/practice more (I've got lots to learn).

On 8: Yes, they have RN now for 115 and 125 gr 9mm bullets. No 147 gr in RN.

Appreciate the advice!
 
Yes, in general, you want the lead bullet to be at least 0.001" larger than actual groove diameter. As the hardness goes up beyond about 13 BHN, I have found that I needed the bullet to be 0.002" larger.
The same is true of coated, except the coating gives protection. Coatings, like plated bullets, can be damaged if the case mouth has not been lightly chamfered inside and out and if one crimps excessively.
Best is to seat and crimp a bullet or two, pull them, and inspect for damage and be sure OD has not changed.
Soon after Obama was elected, there was such a rush on bullets that Precision cut back to only the L-CFN and .45 200gn L-SWC—they used to have a much broader range. Since all I shoot are SWC or FPs, I wasn't negatively effected.
 
Would insufficient flaring of the case be the possible cause for bullets not seating squarely? With the plated bullets, I have some that, when I case gauge them, they were not going in completely, or are not dropping in easily. Looking at the cartridge, the bullet appears to have not seated squarely. It is really hard to tell, but it seems very slightly tipped to one side (the tip of the bullet is not dead center).

I'm wondering if sometimes I'm not placing the bullet flatly on the case, and it isn't straightening, when seating. It's making me wonder if I need to flare more, so that it is easier to place the bullet on the case?

I've used up the plated bullets and would like to try the coated ones next, but I'm wondering if I should pull the ones that don't gauge well, and redo them first (with adjustments to flaring)?

Thoughts?
 
Would insufficient flaring of the case be the possible cause for bullets not seating squarely?

Yes. This is exactly what happens. That's why I always recommend flaring more rather than less. As long as the flared case fits into the seating die, you're probably OK.

Some people flare as little as possible with the mistaken belief that it will cause the brass to last longer.

I flare a lot, and that's not the limiting factor in the number-of-times-you-can-reload. Read this: http://www.massreloading.com/loading45ACP.html

and this: http://www.massreloading.com/longevity.html

ETA: You should try to place the bullet as squarely as possible on top of the case too, but not flaring enough causes this problem more often than not.

The newer RCBS expander dies, and the Redding "M" expander dies expand with an additional "step" near the top of the case (about 1/32" from the case mouth) that enables you to start the bullet square. They really are worth trying, especially if you're loading lead bullets.
 
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Yes. This is exactly what happens. That's why I always recommend flaring more rather than less. As long as the flared case fits into the seating die, you're probably OK.

Some people flare as little as possible with the mistaken belief that it will cause the brass to last longer.

I flare a lot, and that's not the limiting factor in the number-of-times-you-can-reload. Read this: http://www.massreloading.com/loading45ACP.html

and this: http://www.massreloading.com/longevity.html

ETA: You should try to place the bullet as squarely as possible on top of the case too, but not flaring enough causes this problem more often than not.

The newer RCBS expander dies, and the Redding "M" expander dies expand with an additional "step" near the top of the case (about 1/32" from the case mouth) that enables you to start the bullet square. They really are worth trying, especially if you're loading lead bullets.

Thanks! I was suspecting that, and then trying to make sure I really was careful about placing the bullet well.

I take it the effect will be on accuracy, are there other concerns, with this being off center a bit (and I guess part of the bullet touching on the ogive when in the gauge)? The rounds seem to chamber just fine in the gun I use.
 
Thanks! I was suspecting that, and then trying to make sure I really was careful about placing the bullet well.

I take it the effect will be on accuracy, are there other concerns, with this being off center a bit (and I guess part of the bullet touching on the ogive when in the gauge)? The rounds seem to chamber just fine in the gun I use.

The gauges are tighter than the chambers, so some rounds that won't gage will chamber just fine.

As far as accuracy goes, I don't want to put too fine a point on it, but it's friggin pistol ammo. It really doesn't matter.

Say you made brutally inaccurate 4 MOA ammo. That's 2" groups at 50 yards, are you going to complain about that with a pistol?
 
The gauges are tighter than the chambers, so some rounds that won't gage will chamber just fine.

As far as accuracy goes, I don't want to put too fine a point on it, but it's friggin pistol ammo. It really doesn't matter.

Say you made brutally inaccurate 4 MOA ammo. That's 2" groups at 50 yards, are you going to complain about that with a pistol?
Hmmm... 2" at 50 yards? I think I want to make one of those! :)


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Ok, before trying the Precision Bullets, I wanted to try increasing the flaring of cases to avoid the uneven seating of bullets that I see occasionally.

I increased the bell and then seated with no changes. I then increase crimp (1/8 turn), until it gauged.

My OAL is 1.252".

I pulled the bullet and can see a distinct line and compression of the bullet.

Photo shows older case bell and pulled bullet on left (not from same cartridge obviously). Newer adjustment on right showing a belled case and pulled bullet. I didn't have case in position 1, BTW.

Not sure what to do. Suggestions? Less bell?

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I reduces the bell, backed out the crimp and adjusted until it gauged. Now there is a mark, but not as bad and doesn't seem compresses much. Bullet on left is from last try. On right, from this try. Last one I have of plated so can't test more, but I can with the coated bullets.

OAL is 1.253" with case in position 1.

f409d62b0d9f58bef765c41cab89416d.jpg


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I checked the Precision Bullets 230gr FP. They are the same length, 0.634", as the Berry's, and a smidge narrower (0.451" vs 0.452"). I was expecting them to be much shorter and a bit wider.

Profile is different.

18746e42989fe595ebfec9800960371f.jpg


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I gave a go with the same bell and seating. Adjusted the crimp, in case the profile affected it.

OAL is 1.225". Gauged and once pulled, I see a very slight mark. Less than with Berry's.

Picture has unused bullet on left, second cartridge made in center, and pulled bullet on right.

Fits in barrel easily.

b1129ddfd0974ceebafc054326a4a810.jpg
712c369a361465b246c790eeb37c9b73.jpg


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