Questions on building the Ultimate in Home Pump Shotgun

[M60]

I have.

Here's the relevant CMR:

321 CMR 3.00: Hunting

Here's the relevant MGLs:
Chapter 131

Here's from the Abstracts:

Deer hunting regulations

I can't find it.

Your help will be appreciated.

The 2 guys in question were first time hunters with us. Buddies, of a buddy. They were using Saiga's with detachable magazines. That's about all I know.

 

[M60]

410 slug is about the same enery as 44 magnum. The ones I have at home state 1830 feet per second muzzle vocity.

That was my thought too. A cop friend of mine, hunted deer exclusively with a .410 and slugs. He got deer every year.

 

[spcantwell]

If anybody can direct me to a shockwave or tac 14. Please mail me I have been searching over a year for one.
I have an Ithaca stake out (AOW) and really want one of these!!!

I've been told there is a mass legal one out there now with a slightly longer barrel. Not much different visibly but it's all in the last 2".
Call your lgs and ask about the newest version....

 

[Jason m]

410 slug is about the same enery as 44 magnum. The ones I have at home state 1830 feet per second muzzle vocity.

I didn't know that about the .410 slugs, that's a good amount of energy from a smallish chunk of lead, good piercing power to.
I wonder what a 3" #4 or #2 would be like. I got a single shot I might simulate some dry wall and see.
I know Paul did the .410 shotgun review for home defense and it was informative.

Oh that shooting from the bed one was funny, I did see it already but I just wondered what my club would say if I set a bed up on the range........."it's in the name of science" lol

 

[whacko]

I didn't know that about the .410 slugs, that's a good amount of energy from a smallish chunk of lead, good piercing power to.
I wonder what a 3" #4 or #2 would be like. I got a single shot I might simulate some dry wall and see.
I know Paul did the .410 shotgun review for home defense and it was informative.

Oh that shooting from the bed one was funny, I did see it already but I just wondered what my club would say if I set a bed up on the range........."it's in the name of science" lol

From my hunting experience I have to admit 410 birdshot is pretty low power stuff. Ive hunted small game with a 20 and 12 gauge for many years. Squirrel and rabbits with #4 high brass to get some range out of a 12 gauge. I bought a 410 Henry lever action a couple years ago to change things up a bit......first hunt I learned quick that 410 birdshot your range is WAY less.......even through a full choke I was wounding and losing squirrels at 30 to 35 yards where a 12 gauge would have smoked em no problem. I still hunt small game with 410 but you definitely have to pick your shots and be in close.

Slugs on the other hand are high velocity stuff out of a 410

 

[spcantwell]

Or you can go cheaper and make one for everyroom...

 

[Sevenrats]

I have just purchased a Mossberg 590M, which is the magazine fed pump. Comes with a 5rd mag. The barrel is already a short as possible at 18.5", I want to replace the forend with a M-LOK. I would also like to use a foregrip but am unsure of the legality. If anyone can chime in on my limitations for mods it would be appreciated. I have read the state and local laws but cant get anything concrete.

I have heard that shotgun cartridges left in a magazine will become oval over time from the pressure and not feed properly. I have no personal experience with detachable magazine shotguns.

 

[atmay]

The Mossberg Shockwave: the shotgun to use when you dont really care if you hit what you think you're pointing at.

Seriously. Taking the buttstock off of a shotgun just makes it into the worst pointing abomination possible.

It worked pretty well for that guy from Abilene, TX


As for this abomination of a thread:
If you're going to use a shotgun for home defense, an 18" TUBE FED pump is the way to go. Personally, I prefer Remington. Mag extension and a light is all you need for accessories.

 

[Glockster30]

"Large Capacity Feeding Device" and "Large Capacity Weapon" are different sections of the law. Go back and read the link that Mesatchornug posted.

I think that there are some things that we can all agree on, one of which is that the MGL covering this issue is poorly written (not unusual for MA gun laws). The next thing that we can agree on is that a pump shotgun can never, ever, be classified as a large capacity shotgun, as the paragraph that discusses this matter specifically excludes it from same criteria that describes a semi-auto gun as a large capacity gun.

Now we're left with the issue/description of a large capacity feeding device (LCFD). In that paragraph, it mentions a fixed or detachable magazine, box, drum, feed strip or similar device...that holds >5 rounds. Under these definitions, a tube cannot be a fixed or detachable magazine, a box, a drum, a feed strip or a similar device. However, it does make reference to a tube-fed .22 as being exempt. If it did list a tube in the aforementioned description, then I wouldn't be writing this response.

Under this same MGL C. 140, Section 121, in the description of an "assault weapon" it states that it has the same meaning as semiautomatics as defined in 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(30). In addition, this same paragraph explicitly states and lists the following exemptions: "(ii) any weapon that is operated by manual bolt, pump, lever or slide action;..."

So now we're stuck with a conundrum, i.e., a non-large capacity weapon, a pump shotgun, that if it has a >5 round tube capacity, it has a "large capacity feeding device" that is or isn't legal. However, since the tube is integral to the shotgun and cannot be removed to reload like a mag, box, drum, etc., the definition of a large capacity weapon should take precedence, which, again, means the pump shotgun is exempt. Otherwise, the non-semiautomatic phrasing exempting pump shotguns would be meaningless.

Furthermore, I don't believe that MGL defines the size of a standard shotgun shell as being 2.75" or any other size shell, for that matter. Therefore, if we all follow "what appears to be the letter of the law" then any pump shotgun with <a 5 round capacity tube could also, in fact, be a large capacity feeding device if it can fit >5 rounds of mini shells, and thus, be illegal (for example, a 4-round Remington 870 Wingmaster).

For all intents and purposes, MA has been under the 1994 AWB for almost 25 years, so I would think that there would be reams of case law where people and gun stores were hung out to dry if they possessed or sold pump shotguns that were illegal. I could be wrong, but to my knowledge, no properly-licensed person or gun store has been nailed for possessing or selling these shotguns. If I'm wrong about this, someone will correct me.

 

[Mesatchornug]

I think that there are some things that we can all agree on, one of which is that the MGL covering this issue is poorly written (not unusual for MA gun laws). The next thing that we can agree on is that a pump shotgun can never, ever, be classified as a large capacity shotgun, as the paragraph that discusses this matter specifically excludes it from same criteria that describes a semi-auto gun as a large capacity gun.

Now we're left with the issue/description of a large capacity feeding device (LCFD). In that paragraph, it mentions a fixed or detachable magazine, box, drum, feed strip or similar device...that holds >5 rounds. Under these definitions, a tube cannot be a fixed or detachable magazine, a box, a drum, a feed strip or a similar device. However, it does make reference to a tube-fed .22 as being exempt. If it did list a tube in the aforementioned description, then I wouldn't be writing this response.

Under this same MGL C. 140, Section 121, in the description of an "assault weapon" it states that it has the same meaning as semiautomatics as defined in 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(30). In addition, this same paragraph explicitly states and lists the following exemptions: "(ii) any weapon that is operated by manual bolt, pump, lever or slide action;..."

So now we're stuck with a conundrum, i.e., a non-large capacity weapon, a pump shotgun, that if it has a >5 round tube capacity, it has a "large capacity feeding device" that is or isn't legal. However, since the tube is integral to the shotgun and cannot be removed to reload like a mag, box, drum, etc., the definition of a large capacity weapon should take precedence, which, again, means the pump shotgun is exempt. Otherwise, the non-semiautomatic phrasing exempting pump shotguns would be meaningless.

Furthermore, I don't believe that MGL defines the size of a standard shotgun shell as being 2.75" or any other size shell, for that matter. Therefore, if we all follow "what appears to be the letter of the law" then any pump shotgun with <a 5 round capacity tube could also, in fact, be a large capacity feeding device if it can fit >5 rounds of mini shells, and thus, be illegal (for example, a 4-round Remington 870 Wingmaster).

For all intents and purposes, MA has been under the 1994 AWB for almost 25 years, so I would think that there would be reams of case law where people and gun stores were hung out to dry if they possessed or sold pump shotguns that were illegal. I could be wrong, but to my knowledge, no properly-licensed person or gun store has been nailed for possessing or selling these shotguns. If I'm wrong about this, someone will correct me.

I'll agree with almost everything you just said, except one.

A shotgun tube is a fixed magazine, where "fixed" means not-removable. Specifically, it is a fixed, tubular magazine.

So we're agreed, it's as clear as mud, and in internal conflict. We should expect nothing less from MGL.

 

[seanc]

Update
Confirming gun parlor does not sell shockwaves to regular mass residents.

 

[Glockster30]

I'll agree with almost everything you just said, except one.

A shotgun tube is a fixed magazine. Specifically, it is a fixed tubular magazine.

So we're agreed, it's as clear as mud, and in internal conflict. We should expect nothing less from MGL.

Yup, that's where we disagree. As I stated, it should have been added to the description of an LCFD, but it wasn't, other than the disclaimer for the .22 tube, which doesn't refer to it as being a magazine (in the law). It might be inferred, but laws are not usually prosecuted on inference.

 

[kalash]

I think we can all agree that MGLs are clear as mud.

 

[Mesatchornug]

Yup, that's where we disagree. As I stated, it should have been added to the description of an LCFD, but it wasn't, other than the disclaimer for the .22 tube, which doesn't refer to it as being a magazine (in the law). It might be inferred, but laws are not usually prosecuted on inference.

Fixed and detachable are modifiers of the list that follows. Something that is fixed is not removable. The list is not exhaustive thanks to the phrase "or similar device." A tube is a type of feeding device. A bulleted list would look like this:

• fixed
  • magazine
  • box
  • drum
  • feed strip
  • similar device capable of accepting [...]
• detachable
  • magazine
  • box
  • drum
  • feed strip
  • similar device capable of accepting [...]

They end this abortion of a paragraph by specifically excluding .22 caliber* tube mags. If, as you posit, a tube is not covered in this list, there would be no need carve out this exemption. Since they do, we know that some tubes must be included.

* Interestingly, this looks an awful lot like the open phrasing offered by a certain FAQ that we all cottoned onto pretty quickly a couple years ago. Suddenly, I want to design a tube-fed, semiauto rifle, chambered in a ".22 caliber" cartridge...

 

[MisterHappy]

He may be referring to migratory game bird hunting. Which I know for sure includes waterfowl and woodcock. No more than three shells in the gun.

The discussion of mag capacity was specific to deer.

 

[Glockster30]

Fixed and detachable are modifiers of the list that follows. Something that is fixed is not removable. The list is not exhaustive thanks to the phrase "or similar device." A tube is a type of feeding device. A bulleted list would look like this:

• fixed
  • magazine
  • box
  • drum
  • feed strip
  • similar device capable of accepting [...]
• detachable
  • magazine
  • box
  • drum
  • feed strip
  • similar device capable of accepting [...]

They end this abortion of a paragraph by specifically excluding .22 caliber* tube mags. If, as you posit, a tube is not covered in this list, there would be no need carve out this exemption. Since they do, we know that some tubes must be included.

* Interestingly, this looks an awful lot like the open phrasing offered by a certain FAQ that we all cottoned onto pretty quickly a couple years ago. Suddenly, I want to design a tube-fed, semiauto rifle, chambered in a ".22 caliber" cartridge...

I understand what you are stating. However, in the MGL, to me "fixed" is connected to a detachable magazine in the wording and a "typical magazine" to me doesn't equate with tube-fed. I'm an obnoxious stickler for facts, so the federal law should have included a definition that a tube-fed is also a magazine; again, the law only implies it, at least to me.

WRT "or similar device" rightly or wrongly, to me that means something that is similar to a feed strip device, which is something that is belt-fed or ammo strip, etc., rather than a tube-fed device.

You're most likely right in your breakdown between fixed and detachable, but I still have to fall back on why there is no case law for pump shotguns that may or may not violate this section. OTOH, as you state, I hope that we're not opening up a can of worms for prying eyes even though there are several threads on this very issue going back 10 years or so.

Can we discuss something more relevant such as how to distinguish between a pre-ban and post-ban Glock magazine?

 

[Mesatchornug]

I understand what you are stating. However, in the MGL, to me "fixed" is connected to a detachable magazine in the wording and a "typical magazine" to me doesn't equate with tube-fed. I'm an obnoxious stickler for facts, so the federal law should have included a definition that a tube-fed is also a magazine; again, the law only implies it, at least to me.

WRT "or similar device" rightly or wrongly, to me that means something that is similar to a feed strip device, which is something that is belt-fed or ammo strip, etc., rather than a tube-fed device.

You're most likely right in your breakdown between fixed and detachable, but I still have to fall back on why there is no case law for pump shotguns that may or may not violate this section. OTOH, as you state, I hope that we're not opening up a can of worms for prying eyes even though there are several threads on this very issue going back 10 years or so.

Can we discuss something more relevant such as how to distinguish between a pre-ban and post-ban Glock magazine?

And here I was thinking it was time to discuss the differences between whiskey and whisky. But, you know, in person and as a group.

 

[Mesatchornug]

I understand what you are stating. However, in the MGL, to me "fixed" is connected to a detachable magazine in the wording and a "typical magazine" to me doesn't equate with tube-fed. I'm an obnoxious stickler for facts, so the federal law should have included a definition that a tube-fed is also a magazine; again, the law only implies it, at least to me.

WRT "or similar device" rightly or wrongly, to me that means something that is similar to a feed strip device, which is something that is belt-fed or ammo strip, etc., rather than a tube-fed device.

You're most likely right in your breakdown between fixed and detachable, but I still have to fall back on why there is no case law for pump shotguns that may or may not violate this section. OTOH, as you state, I hope that we're not opening up a can of worms for prying eyes even though there are several threads on this very issue going back 10 years or so.

Can we discuss something more relevant such as how to distinguish between a pre-ban and post-ban Glock magazine?

I fully support your sticking to your reading, but have to admit I don't actually understand how you're reading that clause. Can you diagram it for me? You can also feel free to tell me to get lost. I just have this tireless tendency to get really wound up in trying to understand other peoples' views.

 

[Enzo]

When did we have the group buy on the Benelli Super Nova Tactical? I added a weapons light and a mag tube extender to it and I'm done

View attachment 266420

Got the same without the pistol grip. IMO, a very underrated shotgun.

 

[browncoat]

The argument that a 22 tube exemption implies that the tube magazine must be included in the ban isn't valid. If you look at the original federal law, there was an extensive list of excluded firearms, most or all of which wouldn't have been banned because they lacked the feature count.

 

[Mesatchornug]

The argument that a 22 tube exemption implies that the tube magazine must be included in the ban isn't valid. If you look at the original federal law, there was an extensive list of excluded firearms, most or all of which wouldn't have been banned because they lacked the feature count.

You're right, some firearms on the named list didn't fail the feature test. This was by design. The ban, as awful as it was, attempted to create a clear decision tree.

• Is it a named firearm?
  • Yes? Then it's an Assault Weapon.
  • No? Does it have too many "evil features"?
    • Yes? Then it's an Assault Weapon.
    • No? Congrats, not an Assault Weapon.

This has nothing to do with whether a tube is a magazine.

 

[spcantwell]

If anybody can direct me to a shockwave or tac 14. Please mail me I have been searching over a year for one.
I have an Ithaca stake out (AOW) and really want one of these!!!

Fyi, troy city tactical in fall river has the Massachusetts legal one for $399

 

[StevieP]

There's no law against hunting deer with a shotgun having more than six rounds (five + one in the chamber).

But there apparently IS a law against just having a shotgun with more than six rounds, period (??).

 

[seanc]

Fyi, troy city tactical in fall river has the Massachusetts legal one for $399

That is the standard “cruiser” that has been available for as long as I have been around with the birds head instead of the standard grip.

 

[Coyote33]

All this talk about "fixed" "tube" "magazines". So, where do the "magazine extensions" come into play here?

 

[atmay]

All this talk about "fixed" "tube" "magazines". So, where do the "magazine extensions" come into play here?

Nobody f***ing knows.

Maybe the ATF could have weighed in, if someone had bothered to ask this question back in 1996, but since that doesn’t appear to have happened....

 

[spcantwell]

That is the standard “cruiser” that has been available for as long as I have been around with the birds head instead of the standard grip.

It's still the closest anyone is going to get to a shockwave in this state with out paying an arm and a leg...