Questions on building the Ultimate in Home Pump Shotgun

[oppressed]

At this point the OP is trolling.

The law is no more than 5 rounds in a detachable shotgun magazine. It was quoted and shown.

It doesn't matter if Maura itself wants to sell it to you.

 

[Larry Gentile]

Took my 31 year old Rem 870 express. Put Magpul hardware, 18" police barrel and extended tube with flashlight bracket at the end of it. If I need more than 6+1 12 gauge 00 buck for home defense than I have more of a problem that i will be able to handle with any weapon.

 

[JRT]

So an FFL would sell me something knowing I cannot legally own it in MA? Even though the FFL is in MA? I see in your earlier response you highlighted what is considered a "large capacity feeding device".. what you didn't include is the legislature stating a LTC-A holder may not possess it. Please elaborate on the part stating I cannot posses?

In my short tenure in Massachusetts every firearm I bought should not have been transferred by a Mass FFL but they were. Every pistol I bought was not on the roster or the free state version of the roster pistol. I refused to allow the muzzle device to be pinned and welded and I refused to allow the stock to be pinned. I also understood the risks of owning these guns in the state. Its pretty obvious now that 10 round detachable mags are not cool in Mass. You decide how much risk you want to take on.

 

[greencobra]

this is mine, run of the mill 870, 18.5" bbl, late 70's, early 80's vintage. bought it at a local shop about 1990. I was led to believe it was suppose to be a police trade-in but looks too good for that so dunno the pedigree. I always figured the perp I was pointing it at didn't care how dressed up it was, neither did I, so it's stock except for the mag extender I put on. it's retired now and lives in the back of my safe. I remember it throwing 00 buck into a nice tight group at 7 yds.

 

[garandman]

Personally, our HD shotgun is a stock Mossberg 500. Hope we never have to use it but I’d expect it would be confiscated should that terrible circumstance occur.

this is mine, run of the mill 870, 18.5" bbl, late 70's, early 80's vintage. bought it at a local shop about 1990. I was led to believe it was suppose to be a police trade-in but looks too good for that so dunno the pedigree. I always figured the perp I was pointing it at didn't care how dressed up it was, neither did I, so it's stock except for the mag extender I put on. it's retired now and lives in the back of my safe. I remember it throwing 00 buck into a nice tight group at 7 yds.
View attachment 266216

If you call Remington with the serial number they will tell you if it is a police or not. This one was purchased new in 1981 and we confirmed it.

 

[enbloc]

OK, so are the tubes considered magazines? If so, can't they hold more than 5 rounds of the new "mini-shell" shotgun ammo? Then how do they fall within the law? I doubt they have an exemption for those mini-shells yet.

Frankly, I don't care. Imma Scofflaw...

 

[Path-Finder]

A pump gun is not an assault weapon but it can still have a high-capacity feeding device and be illegal. I'm not aware of any prosecutions over pump shotguns holding more than five shells but IANAL.

Yes if it holds more than ten rounds. That would be illegal if it was a pump or not. A magazine fed semi auto shotgun would be an assault weapon no matter how many rounds it held.

 

[enbloc]

"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but Rocks will surely scratch me..."

 

[M60]

Please attach legal evidence to back that up or take it elsewhere please.

You want more proof, than has already been posted, by the good members here, of NES. Attach your 10 round, detachable, magazine, to your shotgun. Carry it and your LTC around town. Your proof will be evident and the judge will do the quoting you asked for..

 

[PreBanHunter]

General Law - Part I, Title XX, Chapter 140, Section 121 (Definitions)
General Law - Part IV, Title I, Chapter 269, Section 10F (Law on Transfer)

 

[M60]

Understood JUDGE M60

I'm not a judge sir, but I'm sure one will be provided for you. I'm pretty sure they'll even provide you with legal counsel, both at no cost to you . Just like your present NES membership. Please let us know the outcome.

 

[dcmdon]

The problem with box magazine fed shotguns is that the shot shells can deform over time while under pressure, and that can cause feed problems. So the problem is really the fact that shotgun shells are soft plastic.

This came up over 10 years ago when people first started thinking about using Saiga shotguns for home defense.

I think its nuts to use a box fed shotgun for any kind of defensive use. If you want a lot of ammo, buy a pre-ban Rem 1100 and build it up into a fighting gun. A 10 round tube mag is legal and cheap on a gun like this. And with mini-shells it will hold somewhere around 13 rounds.

At this point in time, there is no premium for pre-94 semi-auto shotguns. They are just old shotguns.

 

[Path-Finder]

My apologies to m60 and mesatchornug. They're both right. The detachable shotgun mag can't be more than five rounds. I went back and re-read the MGL.

 

[greencobra]

If you call Remington with the serial number they will tell you if it is a police or not.

didn't realize they'd do that, thanks for the info, will try tomorrow sometime. my curiosity is at full attention.

 

[Radtekk]

Ok, what about tube-fed with Aguila mini-shells? I have the adapter, haven't installed it yet, but I think I'd be able to load 10+ in the tube.

 

[Mesatchornug]

Based on my findings in the above quoted section, it is also illegal to sell a Gen4 Glock or any other new firearm with preban mags? The new firearm technically becomes a post ban large capacity weapon in conjunction with preban mags?

General Law - Part I, Title XX, Chapter 140, Section 121 (Definitions)
General Law - Part IV, Title I, Chapter 269, Section 10F (Law on Transfer)

You're new here; a lot of people who have wrestled with this for years have offered you free advice. Many of them teach this stuff. I'm going to speak slowly, try to keep up.

The below applies to the MA AWB:

A removable magazine does not confer its high capacity nature to the firearm it's in.

A new gun can use pre-ban, hi-cap mags. An old gun can use pre-ban, hi-cap mags.

NO gun can legally use post-ban, hi-cap mags.

If you permanently install a pre- ban, hi-cap mag in a new receiver, you manufacture a new, hi-cap firearm.

Your LTC permits you to have high capacity firearms, if they're pre-ban. If you were a LEO, you'd be exempted. If you were a FFL (other than C&R) you would be exempt.

 

[Coyote33]

Is a "tube extender" considered a "detachable magazine"?
Just curious.
Has anyone in Massachusetts ever been convicted for shotgun magazine violations (outside of special hunting restrictions)?

 

[spcantwell]

Just grab a shockwave (they are out there if you look long enough and have the cash). But a bunch of mini shells into it and your gtg for any "home defense" situation but with a much shorter oal. (A grip light or for end light makes a dandy aim point reference)

 

[DarthRevan]

I’m all about tube fed for home defense. That said, the positive side of the mag fed is you can SBS that thing down to the 10.5 inch sweet spot. That would be a lightening quick home defense shotty and a decent flame thrower for night ops.

I got all tingly thinking of the flamethrower aspect.

 

[union]

This entire thread seems to be getting a bit ridiculous.

Is a "tube extender" considered a "detachable magazine"?
Just curious.
Has anyone in Massachusetts ever been convicted for shotgun magazine violations (outside of special hunting restrictions)?

I'm certainly no expert on these vague laws as for what can have what but in my experience a pump shotgun is good with a tube extension and a semi auto is not in this lovely state.

I say this because of what I currently have, can get and what I've seen for sale.

I have a Benelli M4. When I first purchased it not really knowing a lot about the laws I did look into getting a tube extender or even just the full length magazine for it. They are made but no one would ship to MA. I'm sure if I looked hard enough I could find some shady business to ship or possibly a private party. Not worth it. I figured if I need more then 5 shots I'm in a heap of trouble.

However my Mossberg 590a1 which I purchased last year new from a MA FFL came with a factory tube extension. Holds 7 shots. I can also get longer extensions shipped here from companies that would not ship one for my Benelli. I have model #50774. Not sure if mine was an earlier production but the magazine clearly looks different then the Mossberg site.

Then there is the Kel Tec ksg25 for sale at Gartman Arms.

 

[M60]

Is a "tube extender" considered a "detachable magazine"?
Just curious.
Has anyone in Massachusetts ever been convicted for shotgun magazine violations (outside of special hunting restrictions)?

Yes, but mostly hunters, violating hunting regulations. Pretty sure it's 3 round max for water fowl and 5 round max for deer. You have to install a magazine limiting device for these hunting scenarios. A good example is my Benelli, M1 Super 90. It holds more than 5 rounds, so I had to install such a device, to hunt deer in Ma.
If you hunt coyotes, in the daylight hours, there are no legal magazine restrictions. You can hunt coyote with a M1A and use a 20 round magazine, or a AR15, with a 30 round magazine, if you like.

 

[kalash]

Since we're now just posting scattergun pics:

 

[Glockster30]

Per General Law - Part I, Title XX, Chapter 140, Section 121 (emphasis mine)
''Large capacity feeding device'', (i) a fixed or detachable magazine, box, drum, feed strip or similar device capable of accepting, or that can be readily converted to accept, more than ten rounds of ammunition or more than five shotgun shells; or (ii) a large capacity ammunition feeding device as defined in the federal Public Safety and Recreational Firearms Use Protection Act, 18 U.S.C. section 921(a)(31) as appearing in such section on September 13, 1994. The term ''large capacity feeding device'' shall not include an attached tubular device designed to accept, and capable of operating only with,.22 caliber ammunition.

Okay, I'm going to muck this issue up even more by stating that I'm not sure that it's accurate just to cite this paragraph of MGL as there is no wording wrt a tube being a LCFD other than the disclaimer for a tubular .22 not being one.

The next paragraph after the one you cited states among other criteria that a pump shotgun cannot be a large capacity weapon, so it appears that a tube with more than 5 rounds is not illegal.

The term ''large capacity weapon'' shall be a secondary designation and shall apply to a weapon in addition to its primary designation as a firearm, rifle or shotgun and shall not include: (i) any weapon that was manufactured in or prior to the year 1899; (ii) any weapon that operates by manual bolt, pump, lever or slide action; (iii) any weapon that is a single-shot weapon;

Furthermore, this isn't the first thread on this subject. In another thread in 2011, LenS stated in post #10 that Ron Glidden stated that a tube can never be a "LCFD" if integral to the gun (Ron Glidden held seminars on MA gun laws):

LenS

OK folks, I do have an answer to the tube-fed mags in MA. At the MA Firearms Law Update I asked Ron about this.

If the tube is integral with the gun, the tube itself can never be considered a "large capacity feeding device". The rationale for this is that if you removed the tube and tried to "load" it with rifle/shotgun rounds, they would just fall out of the tube (the spring/guts of the tube mag won't stay in place either) and thus a hollow tube isn't a "feeding device".

This holds for semi-auto, pump, or lever-action guns.

Semi auto shotguns restrictions

 

[JRT]

Rolling with Kalash, just come to the dark side with me. As soon as these slack f***s at ATF get back to work and Remington starts shipping this will be a sweet SBS. Not a shotty but a firearm so probably 50 state legal.

 

[seanc]

Another way to look at is this. Shotguns have been in regular use for well over 100 years. Civilian, police and military. All sorts of circumstances, purposes different conditions etc. if you look really hard, you will probably find one or two that use box mags. And maybe if you continue to search you’ll even find one that uses a belt fed.

But those are extremely rare. Generally, any sort of police or mil use tube mags. They are proven. Reliable. And very rarely fail under the vast majority of circumstances and conditions.

In a home defense situation. You probably want to look at the most proven. The most reliable. And the solution that is going to feed flawlessly and go bang every single time. You likely won’t have a back up. You are unlikely to have a second chance.

If the USAS 12or Saiga is any indication of box mags in general. My experience has been that neither of these are 100% reliable. Shot shells with the flat front just don’t feed as reliably as bullets do. Not going to try to play engineer and hypothesize or diagnose. It is just my experience that they don’t.

An 870 or Moss 500 or even a maverick 88 may not be exciting or sexy. But they are proven and reliable. And in a home defense situation that matters.

 

[seanc]

Rolling with Kalash, just come to the dark side with me. As soon as these slack f***s at ATF get back to work and Remington starts shipping this will be a sweet SBS. Not a shotty but a firearm so probably 50 state legal.

View attachment 266349

If anybody can direct me to a shockwave or tac 14. Please mail me I have been searching over a year for one.
I have an Ithaca stake out (AOW) and really want one of these!!!

 

[JRT]

If anybody can direct me to a shockwave or tac 14. Please mail me I have been searching over a year for one.
I have an Ithaca stake out (AOW) and really want one of these!!!

Available in like 4 different versions at my LGS. Probably orderable in any stores portal if you don’t want to visit Philadelphia.

King Shooters Supply | Remington, 870 Tac-14, Pump Action Shotgun, 12 Gauge, 3" Chamber, 14" Cylinder Barrel, Shockwave Pistol Grip, Magpul Moe M-Lok Forend, 4Rd, 26.5" Overall Length

 

[Glockster30]

If anybody can direct me to a shockwave or tac 14. Please mail me I have been searching over a year for one.
I have an Ithaca stake out (AOW) and really want one of these!!!

You couldn't have looked that hard since a LGS about 10 to 12 miles from you advertises a shockwave.

MOSSBERG 590 SHOCKWAVE 14″ 12 GAUGE – The Gun Parlor

 

[MisterHappy]

Yes, but mostly hunters, violating hunting regulations. Pretty sure it's 3 round max for water fowl and 5 round max for deer. You have to install a magazine limiting device for these hunting scenarios. A good example is my Benelli, M1 Super 90. It holds more than 5 rounds, so I had to install such a device, to hunt deer in Ma.
If you hunt coyotes, in the daylight hours, there are no legal magazine restrictions. You can hunt coyote with a M1A and use a 20 round magazine, or a AR15, with a 30 round magazine, if you like.

Cite, please?

 

[enbloc]

You couldn't have looked that hard since a LGS about 10 to 12 miles from you advertises a shockwave.

MOSSBERG 590 SHOCKWAVE 14″ 12 GAUGE – The Gun Parlor

Lol. The Gun Parlor...