Question RE: LEOSA

Mike-Mike

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Can anyone tell me there experiences/ problems with LEOSA - HR 218?

I am assuming that not all areas welcome this with the open arms they should.
 
Can anyone tell me there experiences/ problems with LEOSA - HR 218?

I am assuming that not all areas welcome this with the open arms they should.

You will need to be a lot more specific in your question:

- I know some chiefs will NOT issue the proper ID to some officers/retirees so that they can not comply with LEOSA.

- According to a friend (recently retired chief) the other day, only a handful of PDs issue IDs that are "compliant" with the MA CMR (special wording is required).

- There is conflicting info on whether or not residents who retired from non-MA departments can qualify in MA (CMR & GCAB says no, MSP has told retired chief noted above yes).

- IIRC, CMR only allows municipal and state police to qualify for LEOSA, no other LE groups in MA can qualify in MA per CMR.

- NYPD brass has ordered their troops to detain any visiting LEO claiming LEOSA status, confiscate the gun and have HQ verify status before releasing gun or officer. I am NOT saying that most NYPD POs follow this directive, but I have read the directive with my own eyes (regrettably I don't think I ever kept a copy).

- If the Big O signs the revisions to LEOSA on his desk, the MA CMR will be much further out of step with LEOSA . . . and if they address it at all, I expect it will take 2-4 years (again, it was 4 years the last time) before they pass a revised CMR that probably still will be in violation of the Fed Law.
 
In my personal experience, I have never had any problems. I imagine that the only time any serious questions would be asked, is if you actually shot some scumbag. If you ever show another cop your badge / ID and he starts asking questions about if you are carrying, If you are full time, etc you can rest assured that he is a dickhead and is looking to jam you up for something.

Anytime I have been shown a badge and ID, I say "have a good one" and thats the end of it. I also do the same when shown a valid LTC as long as the guy is not drunk or doing anything stupid.
There has always been debate over who this covers and if you go over to trashcops.com you will find a couple of threads where they are arguing if part timers, campus cops and federals are covered. I would suggest printing a copy of the bill and keeping it in your glove box in case you run into a dickhead.

Here are the current revisions to HR 218 http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s111-1132&tab=summary Passed by congress and senate, waiting on POTUS.
 
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You will need to be a lot more specific in your question:

I guess its hard to believe that a MA resident in another state can show a lousy little police ID issued from a small town in MA and get the "Your all set" from the LEO in that state and vise versa. Just looking for real world examples of how it went down. Thanks for the info I got so far.
 
I guess its hard to believe that a MA resident in another state can show a lousy little police ID issued from a small town in MA and get the "Your all set" from the LEO in that state and vise versa. Just looking for real world examples of how it went down. Thanks for the info I got so far.

As a for instance:

- My PD has no ID-making equipment. They did a "one shot deal" with another PD to create cc-type IDs for some officers a number of years ago. One of our guys was in the sandbox at the time and upon return he told the chief that his ID had expired . . . all they would do was type up an old one on a small card that was created >30 years ago and laminated it. I was issued two IDs over the years (two different chiefs) on that same stock and any 9th grader could do a better job on his/her computer.

- Every city/town/agency has a different ID, some look professional and some look like a kid made them in 5 minutes. I suspect that other states may not be much different.

- MCOPA has been working on a MA "universal" LE ID and I'm told that it will roll out as an experiment in a couple of towns late this Fall. Even if they roll it out across the state, there is nothing that will FORCE every police chief to use it, and some will refuse due to cost and others due to "nobody tells me what to do" attitudes.

- Unlike the book published for LE to ID legit DLs from all 50 states, there is no such document to determine legit LE IDs. A lot of LEOs have claimed that simply conversing with another "officer" can smoke out the phonies in short order.


After LEOSA:

- HI still insists that visiting officers MUST register their guns with HI PD!

- Many PDs will refuse to qualify anyone who didn't retire from that department, refuse to qualify any retirees, refuse to issue retiree IDs, refuse to qualify Feds, etc. It's a mess and no law is going to change that.

- NYPD arrested a PA Constable with a warrant against some guy in NYC and had been sent there to make the arrest. The case against him was eventually dismissed as a violation of LEOSA.

- USCG person arrested (NY?) with firearm claimed LEOSA status, and the judge bought the story and dismissed the charges.

- SD case regarding officers tangling with Hell's Angels in a bar. GSG just posted a link to that case.
 
I guess its hard to believe that a MA resident in another state can show a lousy little police ID issued from a small town in MA and get the "Your all set" from the LEO in that state and vise versa. Just looking for real world examples of how it went down. Thanks for the info I got so far.

I found a few more cases involving LEOSA.

The actor Dennis Farina, who's a retired cop, got arrested with a gun in Kalifornia, and plead no contest to felony charges, which were later expunged.

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...or-arrested-for-allegedly-bringing-gun-to-LAX

This letter from the FOP that references a Seattle cop getting arrested with a gun in a bar, which seems to be referring to the Sturgis incident I linked to above.

http://www.fop.net/publications/archives/letters/2008_0911.pdf

There's another case out of Washington D.C., Ord v. District of Columbia, No. 08-7094, liked below.

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-dc-circuit/1498827.html

He wasn't arrested but was charged. He was a security guard with limited police powers, similar to a Boston SPO, but different in practice. From what I understand of VA law, a lot of guards get SPO powers to help them enforce shoplifting laws and similar things, it's not nearly as police oriented as the title indicates. They seemed to come under scrutiny from the locals, who knows how that fun started.

- Every city/town/agency has a different ID, some look professional and some look like a kid made them in 5 minutes. I suspect that other states may not be much different.

This is in part why various groups are pushing for a national LE ID card. I know of one municipality in Mass. that didn't issue any kind of ID to it's cops other than a uniform and a badge until summer of 2006 (and keep in mind when LEOSA took effect). The same town has long delays in getting ID's to new guys as well last I heard.

- Unlike the book published for LE to ID legit DLs from all 50 states, there is no such document to determine legit LE IDs. A lot of LEOs have claimed that simply conversing with another "officer" can smoke out the phonies in short order.

More importantly, not all police officers and police agencies are LEOSA compliant. For instance, campus police at certain colleges in Texas are LEOSA compliant, others are not. The ID can be 100% correct, the guy can be issued a firearm by his agency, arrest powers and the whole shabang, but not be in line with the law. Then there's corrections, where some like NC County Corrections have an academy longer than many police academies in other states, with a good amount of firearms training, contrasted with the Federal BOP, who has a 3 week academy and mediocre firearms training. NC county corrections isn't covered under LEOSA (in most circumstances), BOP is.

The problem is when a LEO from Hawaii gets pulled over at 3 a.m. in Kansas, how does the cop on the side of the road know if the guy's legal? The only way to tell is to contact their PD, but even that won't give you the answer, because at 3 a.m. there might not be anyone in the station who knows or cares about LEOSA compliance; there's also the agencies that are 100% compliant but who tell their employees and others who ask that they're not [thinking]. Even a phone call won't answer some questions though, because there are specific criteria that must be met, so a lot of research is required in many cases. The only real way to tell is in court.

When they drafted the law the intent was pretty clear, "cops should be allowed to carry," but some people slipped through the cracks. FOP, IACP and others are pushing for modifications to LEOSA, but it's based on their own agendas and prejudices against certain types of LE in some cases. I'm not just talking about corrections vs. street cops or fed vs. state, but bizarre things like university PD vs. college PD, or highway patrol vs. county sheriff. The good news is that many states have broad exceptions in their laws for out of state LE that don't have the nuances and caveats of LEOSA, so out of state LE who aren't covered by LEOSA can still carry there.

- Many PDs will refuse to qualify anyone who didn't retire from that department, refuse to qualify any retirees, refuse to issue retiree IDs, refuse to qualify Feds, etc. It's a mess and no law is going to change that.

I know of one municipality in Mass. who'll only issue ID's to retirees who qualify at that department. If you retire to somewhere far off, travelling back once a year based on a qual schedule that the department could be expensive or impossible. One of my relatives was in that situation and never bothered with the creds, just stuck with a state LTC.

- NYPD arrested a PA Constable with a warrant against some guy in NYC and had been sent there to make the arrest. The case against him was eventually dismissed as a violation of LEOSA.

This is a link to that court filing.

http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/agopinions/NYCtLEOSARulingPeoplevsRodriguez.PDF

I haven't seen any first hand documents on that case (written statements, police reports, etc.) but I think that Constable was full of it. He was employed as a construction worker full time, PA constable part time, and had his POV done up to look like a cop car, was hanging out with a friend in NY and carrying, then later claimed he was in NY to serve papers but couldn't recall any details.

- USCG person arrested (NY?) with firearm claimed LEOSA status, and the judge bought the story and dismissed the charges.

Here's a link to that.

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/threads/37738-LEOSA-case-in-New-York

That was the 1st "test case," but check out that link, there was a lot more to that case that never got reported in the media. He had a warrant at the time of the arrest, was carrying the gun with no spares or holster tucked under the front seat, and never mentioned LEOSA when he was arrested or booked. If you read between the lines, he thought he was carrying illegally, and to the cop who stopped him it would have looked that way.

He was also brought up on federal charges stemming from his purchase of the Glock 23 in Massachusetts. I've searched like mad for more info on that, but the only court documents I've found are on his case with NY. The arresting officer's report never mentions contacting the feds, or questions/statements regarding the purchase of the gun, so I'm guessing they did some digging on their own based on the controversy surrounding that case. I've tried hard but can't find anything on his federal case, that was very shadowy, but apparently he was cleared.

ETA: I feel like a dummy. [laugh] I just realized how the feds got involved: Guntrace. NY cops did Guntrace and ATF found the error that way. I'd still like to know more about what the heck went on with that gun transfer that got him charged though.

- SD case regarding officers tangling with Hell's Angels in a bar. GSG just posted a link to that case.

Other sources have more info on that case, but it looks like there's details missing from the public domain on that one. My hunch is that the cops carrying were behaving like a stereotypical biker gang in a bar and got in over their heads.

I think it's worth mentioning that in every one of these cases of LEOSA compliant guys getting arrested or charged, the situation was messy and not clear cut; the Coastie with warrants and mens rea, the motorcycle club cops who were involved in a shooting with another "motorcycle club" in a bar at a bike rally, the retired cop without a badge or creds who forgot about the gun in his bag and tried to walk it onto an airplane, the Virginia security guard with minor police powers in a pissing contest with the locals, the BOP officer in a heated domestic in Hawaii who's agency screwed him and said he wasn't covered, the whacker constable who somehow got NYPD called on him in his police lookalike car (my guess, lights and sirens to impress his girlfriend)...these weren't cases of an off duty cop on vacation who gets pulled over for speeding and is hauled off in handcuffs in front of his wife when all he did was carry a gun.

There was questionable activity or gray area in all of these cases. IMO most of these guys made multiple blunders and didn't keep a low profile. Instead of the locals viewing them as an off duty cop, they were viewed as an idiot/bad guy/jerk with a gun. Another issue is that many of these cases don't involve "cops" in the traditional sense, which can trigger the who's more macho routine.

Final thought, it's not a mistake that every single one of these cases comes from states that are remarkably anti-gun. Hawaii, NY, D.C. and Kali are all neck & neck in the competition for "Sh*ttiest place to have guns in the US" award. Granted, because of that LEOSA is your only option for CCW there, but still, spend your tourist dollars in states that respect human rights if you have half the chance.
 
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I've traveled by car up and down the eastern seaboard and all over New England and flown to Florida and Texas numerous times over the last several years carrying "on the badge" and haven't had a bit of trouble yet. Of course, I haven't had any run-ins with the law either so no opportunity to test LEOSA. I have been pulled over here in Maine and haven't had any problems.

I'm the sole LEO working for a very small town and they don't issue anything, including ID's. I went to an online ID badge company and made my own photo ID with all pertinent info and signatures, haven't had a problem yet - http://www.easyidcard.com. They're ID badges are reasonably priced, well made, and, if you do your part, are very polished/professional looking.
 
The Big O signed the revision to LEOSA into law today.

I'm betting that it will be 2-3 years before MA revises the CMR and it still won't be compliant with the Fed Law!!

No way they are going to allow part-timers such as myself (who separated after 17 years) to qualify for LEOSA in MA!! [Yes, that is part of this revision . . . 10 years total service, no pension requirements.]
 
The Big O signed the revision to LEOSA into law today.

I'm betting that it will be 2-3 years before MA revises the CMR and it still won't be compliant with the Fed Law!!

No way they are going to allow part-timers such as myself (who separated after 17 years) to qualify for LEOSA in MA!! [Yes, that is part of this revision . . . 10 years total service, no pension requirements.]

Hey brother, don't forget that the whole purpose of LEOSA is to keep tyrannical, anti-gun dictatorships like MA out of it. You are a cop, go ahead and carry. MA can't say crap about it. I guess you still have to qualify with the carry gun, but I am going to read through and see if you need to get qualified by your old department or just to department standards.

EDIT: The ammendment to LEOSA contains the following change for retired officers:

‘(4) during the most recent 12-month period, has met, at the expense of the individual, the standards for qualification in firearms training for active law enforcement officers, as determined by the former agency of the individual, the State in which the individual resides or, if the State has not established such standards, either a law enforcement agency within the State in which the individual resides or the standards used by a certified firearms instructor that is qualified to conduct a firearms qualification test for active duty officers within that State;’

So I guess you just need to find a certified instructor that will run you through the course of fire. I don't even know if there is a MA standard or if it is different for each agency.
 
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Hey brother, don't forget that the whole purpose of LEOSA is to keep tyrannical, anti-gun dictatorships like MA out of it. You are a cop, go ahead and carry. MA can't say crap about it. I guess you still have to qualify with the carry gun, but I am going to read through and see if you need to get qualified by your old department or just to department standards.

EDIT: The ammendment to LEOSA contains the following change for retired officers:

‘(4) during the most recent 12-month period, has met, at the expense of the individual, the standards for qualification in firearms training for active law enforcement officers, as determined by the former agency of the individual, the State in which the individual resides or, if the State has not established such standards, either a law enforcement agency within the State in which the individual resides or the standards used by a certified firearms instructor that is qualified to conduct a firearms qualification test for active duty officers within that State;’

So I guess you just need to find a certified instructor that will run you through the course of fire. I don't even know if there is a MA standard or if it is different for each agency.

There is now a MA standard, but there seems to be some confusion on what the LEOSA Instructor MUST use for training standards. I just filed to become a LEOSA Instructor, if MSP certifies me, I understand (from another LEOSA Instructor) that I will get a packet of info that provides more guidance (per MGL and CMR) as to what I need to do to qualify LEOs. I'll admit to not having paid a lot of attention to the requirements since my testimony on the CMR when it was proposed (it was an abortion).
 
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Maine makes it easy, two standardized handgun courses of fire - duty weapon & plain clothes. The instructors I know put the retirees through the plain clothes course for their LEOSA quals.
 
There is now a MA standard, but there seems to be some confusion on what the LEOSA Instructor MUST use for training standards. I just filed to become a LEOSA Instructor, if MSP certifies me, I understand (from another LEOSA Instructor) that I will get a packet of info that provides more guidance (per MGL and CMR) as to what I need to do to qualify LEOs. I'll admit to not having paid a lot of attention to the requirements since my testimony on the CMR when it was proposed (it was an abortion).

Len, I don't mean too much disrespect here. But why post about something you don't know about???Why not wait until you are a MA LEOSA certified instructor, and then answer the question??? "but there seems to be some confusion on what the LEOSA Instructor MUST use for training standards" Hmm thats odd because if I look in the back of my MPTC instructor handbook it tells me exactly what the MPTC LEOSA course(s) of fire are...I can only assume that the other "types" of MA OK LEOSA courses are written out someplace as well (and thats how they got thier courses OK'd)...
 
From the EOPSS

The Official Website of the Executive Office of Public Safety and Security (EOPSS)

Mass.Gov

Public Safety

* EOPSS Home
* Mass.Gov
* State Agencies
* State Online Services


Home > Firearms Registration & Laws >
Approved LEOSA Courses
In Accordance with 515 CMR 6.00:


LEOSA Courses

Certification #
Municipal Police Training Committee LEO-001
Massachusetts Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors & Armorers Association LEO-002
SIGARMS Academy LEOSA Certification Course LEO-003
DWJR LEOSA Certification Course LEO-004

(Updated 10/24/2008)
 
Final thought, it's not a mistake that every single one of these cases comes from states that are remarkably anti-gun. Hawaii, NY, D.C. and Kali are all neck & neck in the competition for "Sh*ttiest place to have guns in the US" award. Granted, because of that LEOSA is your only option for CCW there, but still, spend your tourist dollars in states that respect human rights if you have half the chance.

OK it looks like I stand corrected here. I found two more LEOSA cases, you can read the full text of them at the link below.

http://hr218leosa.com/docs/newsletters/Newsletter201001.pdf

The first is out of NJ, nothing shocking there.

Three hours into the New Year, a car load of military servicemen were driving from a nightclub in Clifton, NJ. The driver had forgotten to turn on the car's headlights before pulling into the street.

Clifton Police Officer Giardina stopped the car. The driver, a U.S. Coast Guardian, volun-teered that she had a firearm in the glove box, as most LEOs would, and produced her driving credentials, agency ID, and Virginia CCW...

The second is from the same link, it's out of gun-loving Texas.

Attorney Dean Gregory took the case of a federal corrections officer charged with unlawful possession pro bono. Officer Jerry Dan Hooten had been stopped in Texas for reckless driving and charged with possessing his personally owned handgun...

So there's at least one LEOSA arrest in a gun friendly state, although I'm guessing that the facts are slightly off, since no license is required to possess a gun (even in the car) in TX.
 
I've seen both of these before. There was some doubt that a CG sailor would qualify under LEOSA, as well as the Federal CO.

YMMV
 
I've seen both of these before. There was some doubt that a CG sailor would qualify under LEOSA, as well as the Federal CO.

YMMV

The Coast Guard case I linked to in post #20 is the 2nd Coast Guard LEOSA case, the 1st was Benjamin Booth in NY which I linked to previously in this thread. The courts agreed in both cases that USCG are covered by LEOSA.

BOP is too, check out this link:
http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/FBOP-LEOSAMemo.pdf
 
I found a NJ case related to a retired cop's permit suspension and LEOSA.

SUPERIOR COURT OF NEW JERSEY

APPELLATE DIVISION

DOCKET NO. A-4077-06T4

IN RE CARRY PERMIT OF

JAMES L. ANDROS

http://lawlibrary.rutgers.edu/courts/appellate/a4077-06.opn.html

It says in part:

It is conceded that appellant satisfied the requirements of the federal act. But a retired officer's conduct permits the licensing state to revoke the permit, as evidenced by the requirements for qualification and testing every year. See U.S.C.A. 926C(c)(5). In other words, the federal act expressly permits states to set "standards for training and qualification" consistent with those of "active law enforcement officers." Otherwise, a retired officer who suffers from a disability or inability to satisfy those standards would be able to continue to carry firearms.


We thus agree with the opinion of Judge Neustadter that the federal act merely preempts a state's ability to preclude, or change the requirements for, carrying the firearm interstate, if the state of former employment permits licensing of the retired officer.

You can read the entire case at the above link.

Another link I found mentions other LEOSA cases that have been defended in states including Mass.

http://www.copcircle.com/files/LEOSA_LSC_Flyer-NY.doc.pdf

Has won HR 218 decisions in NJ, NY, MA, IL, and VA

Drew Peterson also beat the charges related to his rifle because of LEOSA.

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vb...rew-Peterson-is-3-8-of-a-inch-too-short/page2

And Hawaii appears to consider a LEO intoxicated if they've had any alcohol at all.

http://hawaii.gov/ag/criminal_justice/LEO/Guidelines QRLEO.pdf

Hawaii’s LEOSA Firearm Policy takes a zero
tolerance position on carrying a concealed firearm
while “under the influence” of alcohol or intoxicating or
hallucinatory drugs or substances. The LEOSA
Firearm Policy defines “under the influence” as “any
amount of alcohol or other intoxicating or hallucinatory
drug or substance, in the blood or breath.”
 
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