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Question on zeroing

ZainAnak

ZainAnak

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Hey all. This is mostly a question for Derek and the other CMP/Highpower shooters out there who use ARs..

Say you bring a new AR out to the range for the first time for zeroing- let's say at 100y. Well, for elevation, I know you would click the rear sight up a notch from mech. zero, then do all of your adjustment with the front sight post.

But for windage..

1) Let's say your rear sight starts off at mech. zero (where the two central line markings meet up - just making sure I'm using the right terms here). Do you expect to have to move it a few clicks left or right to get it actually zeroed in the black?

2) Assuming you do, what do you then do to "call" that your zero/find it again? Use that white paint I sometimes see?

3) If 1) above is true, what's a reasonable amount to have to click? I.e. what's the range in MOA you'd expect in a match AR that you need to move it from mech. zero before it's at zero on paper?

Many thanks!!
 
My first two issued rifles in the Marines were 21 L windage to zero at 200 yards for me.

Get your windage to mech zero. Use three shot groups to adjust your windage. Once you are centered count back the clicks to mech zero and that is your dope as they call it. Marking with a paint pen allows you to quickly get back to mech zero with 1/4 min sights so you don't have to count them all. With 1/4 min sights you will have three clicks in there that will all look like mech zero. The paint line will confirm you are centered.

Every match you shoot start at mech zero and apply your windage. Doing this will prevent you from forgetting the 600 yard windage adjustment you may have made from the match before.
 
derek said:
My first two issued rifles in the Marines were 21 L windage to zero at 200 yards for me.

Get your windage to mech zero. Use three shot groups to adjust your windage. Once you are centered count back the clicks to mech zero and that is your dope as they call it. Marking with a paint pen allows you to quickly get back to mech zero with 1/4 min sights so you don't have to count them all. With 1/4 min sights you will have three clicks in there that will all look like mech zero. The paint line will confirm you are centered.

Every match you shoot start at mech zero and apply your windage. Doing this will prevent you from forgetting the 600 yard windage adjustment you may have made from the match before.
Click to expand...

Very interesting and useful.

1) Did you mean 21 Left above?

2) Given that this is the MO of using these rifles, I was also wondering if your "dope" usually changes with distance- reason being simple trig- if it all ain't perfectly aligned along a straight line, which it doesn't sound like it is, it would make sense to me that your dope may change slightly as the ranges increase.

Thanks!!
 
Zero

derek said:
My first two issued rifles in the Marines were 21 L windage to zero at 200 yards for me.

Get your windage to mech zero. Use three shot groups to adjust your windage. Once you are centered count back the clicks to mech zero and that is your dope as they call it. Marking with a paint pen allows you to quickly get back to mech zero with 1/4 min sights so you don't have to count them all. With 1/4 min sights you will have three clicks in there that will all look like mech zero. The paint line will confirm you are centered.

Every match you shoot start at mech zero and apply your windage. Doing this will prevent you from forgetting the 600 yard windage adjustment you may have made from the match before.
Click to expand...
******
Yup. In the Army we call it battlesight zero. Mechanical zero is centering the front and rear sights. Battlesight zero is when you zero the sights to yourself. We`re supposed to record the adjustments and write them on a piece of paper and stick it in then buttstock. If you know your battlesight zero in theory you can pick up another Joe`s weapon, look at his battlesight zero, and add or subtract to get your`s.
 
ZainAnak said:
Very interesting and useful.

1) Did you mean 21 Left above?

2) Given that this is the MO of using these rifles, I was also wondering if your "dope" usually changes with distance- reason being simple trig- if it all ain't perfectly aligned along a straight line, which it doesn't sound like it is, it would make sense to me that your dope may change slightly as the ranges increase.

Thanks!!
Click to expand...

#1) Yes 21 left was my BZO as rwl1955 said.

#2) Typically no it will stay 21 left all the way back. Once in a while someone's position ie. standing, sitting, or prone will cause them to make an adjustment to windage for that stage. If I see someone with a position that causes this I will attempt to correct the position rather than let them fire 21 left at 200 and 19 left at 300 and 600. It's rare, but I've seen it.

Obviously the elevation will change dramatically though. [wink]

ETA: My upper from Jon Holliger is 4 left of my zero.
 
derek said:
#1) Yes 21 left was my BZO as rwl1955 said.

#2) Typically no it will stay 21 left all the way back. Once in a while someone's position ie. standing, sitting, or prone will cause them to make an adjustment to windage for that stage. If I see someone with a position that causes this I will attempt to correct the position rather than let them fire 21 left at 200 and 19 left at 300 and 600. It's rare, but I've seen it.

Obviously the elevation will change dramatically though. [wink]
Click to expand...


Do they give CMP classes locally? I'd love to get into the program, but know nothing about it. I'm a decent shot (39/40 last quals), but I'd love to improve and shoot longer distances.
 
Derek and rwl, many thanks!!

Two last things:

1) Will I be fine zeroing at 100- 200 may be a bit difficult to range out until I get to Woburn and/or Reading.

2) Thanks so much for this info- here I was fiddling with everything thinking real zero is supposed to line up perfectly with mech. zero. Doh! In fact, it sounds like just the opposite- a few hearty clicks to separate the two sound more ideal (so it's consistent) rather than 1 click off.

Oh, and lastly..

3) With an M1A, you can pretty easily adjust the front for windage- do most competitors do this and keep rear at mech. zero for their BZO, or is it also a "4L by default" setup?

Thanks.
 
Martlet said:
Do they give CMP classes locally? I'd love to get into the program, but know nothing about it. I'm a decent shot (39/40 last quals), but I'd love to improve and shoot longer distances.
Click to expand...

The folks on the MA state rifle team usually give a CMP clinic each year. I've taken them at WSA and Reading Rifle & Revolver. They were well worth the time -- a lot of fun, I learned a lot, and very cheap. Contact Randy Enger [email protected]

Randy is probably either still involved in it or he knows who is. He and his wife Ev are great shooters and good people.
 
Martlet said:
Do they give CMP classes locally? I'd love to get into the program, but know nothing about it. I'm a decent shot (39/40 last quals), but I'd love to improve and shoot longer distances.
Click to expand...

Duane Brown and I are hopefully going to put on an adult clinic this summer at Reading. Nothing is set in stone and we still need approval from the club. If we get approval and a date I will be sure to post it in here for signups.
 
ZA,

I have my rifles set up for a front sight windage adjustment so when I go to the range I can set my rear sight to mechanical zero and then adjust the front sight so that my mechanical windage zero is also my real zero. If your rifle has a windage zero that is way off, then you can modify your front sight by doing something like this.

You might want to get some nail polish and mark your sight's windage and elevation and when you get to a longer range, make sure to write down how many clicks up from the bottom you are for 200, 300 & 600 yards on the plot sheets and then use a band of one color for the 200 and a different one for the 300. I've found that with my loads, my 600 yard zero is about a full revolution around from my 300 yard zero so I don't mark the 600 yard zero, but I record it in the book as + or - the number of clicks from the 300 yard band (but I know I have to come a full revolution beyond my 300 yard zero).

The CMP has some nice articles by the AMU about marking your sights and using the data book to record your zeros, groups & scores.

You should have no problem if you zero for elevation at 100 yards. Just set your rear sight so your only a couple of clicks off the bottom and then zero the front sight post for elevation. When you go to a full distance match, keep these figures in mind. They should get you close as long as you keep the same sight picture all the way through the match.

• From a 100 yard zero come up 2 minutes for 200 yards.
• From a 200 yard zero come up 3 minutes for 300 yards.
• From a 300 yard zero come up 12 minutes for 600 yards.

For the M1s & M1As, yes people do zero the front sight but it is difficult to get it to be exact so it is typically with in a couple of clicks of mechanical zero and your good to go.

BTW NM.US has a very nice single page data sheet for download that you can use to keep track of everything.

B
 
On the 26th of May, Nashua has a beginners clinic and then on the 27th there is a EIC match. I've taken a friend to the Nashua clinic and they had rifles and ammunition for people that didn't have something to shoot. Instruction included classroom and range instruction under a coach. They did a very nice job, I was impressed anyway. Fee for the clinic is $30. Juniors shoot for free.

On May 17th & 18th Scarborough Fish & Game is conducting a beginners clinic and match on their new 600 yard range.

In Vermont there is a clinic at EAFR on May 10, June 28th, July 12, August 2nd, Sept. 20 and Oct. 4th. The Sunday following the clinics they typically hold a match. Clinic fee is $15 and another $20 for ammo. Juniors (14-17) shoot for $2.

There are other numerous clubs in the region hold clinics but it can sometimes be difficult to determine when they are.

B
 
Martlet said:
Do they give CMP classes locally? I'd love to get into the program, but know nothing about it. I'm a decent shot (39/40 last quals), but I'd love to improve and shoot longer distances.
Click to expand...

Hey, make it to an Appleseed. Come up to Jericho, VT in July, and we shoot 600 yards. Or, do Harvard in April, or both. At Harvard, you can get by with just $12 for ammo (.22 LR).

For YOU, it's a great deal, because you DON'T pay the $70 fee, you're exempt, because you're military.

It would also be a good start to High Power, as we'll jump start you with the basics before you start.

Note that this doesn't TAKE AWAY from any CMP Clininc, as I suggest you do BOTH.
 
Nickle said:
Hey, make it to an Appleseed. Come up to Jericho, VT in July, and we shoot 600 yards. Or, do Harvard in April, or both. At Harvard, you can get by with just $12 for ammo (.22 LR).

For YOU, it's a great deal, because you DON'T pay the $70 fee, you're exempt, because you're military.

It would also be a good start to High Power, as we'll jump start you with the basics before you start.

Note that this doesn't TAKE AWAY from any CMP Clininc, as I suggest you do BOTH.
Click to expand...


I'll do Harvard in April if someone will be there to show me the ropes. I might hop up to Jericho as well. My wife is always trying to get me up there to visit her family.
 
Nickle and Fred will be there, among others, as instructors. For attendees from NES, I will be there with my wife (a total newbie) and Mrs Magnum and Mikey may well be there, too.

Hey, for the cost of your ammo - which is your only cost except for the range fee, how can you go wrong?
 
dwarven1 said:
Nickle and Fred will be there, among others, as instructors. For attendees from NES, I will be there with my wife (a total newbie) and Mrs Magnum and Mikey may well be there, too.

Hey, for the cost of your ammo - which is your only cost except for the range fee, how can you go wrong?
Click to expand...

What do you shoot?
 
Depends on whether I get my M1 Carbine fixed by then or if I get another 10/22 by then. I'll likely be loaning my wife and niece 10/22s which will leave me with an M1 Carbine or an M1 Garand. Or I might just borrow a loaner 10/22 from Roger. It really doesn't matter - Appleseed is rifle-neutral. Just need a sling and decent sights.
 
Nickle, I am a total newbie to CMP/Rifle shooting but want to get out to your clinics this season.

Is the 10/22 set up you guys suggest similar in it's workings to the AR discussions above? I guess my question is if I get a 10/22 and set it up as you guys suggest for Appleseed will the knowledge I gain from you translate to my future AR?

I apologize in advance if this is an obvious or stupid question. This sight/minute stuff is very confusing if you've never done it or been taught it before.
 
dbhn said:
Is the 10/22 set up you guys suggest similar in it's workings to the AR discussions above? I guess my question is if I get a 10/22 and set it up as you guys suggest for Appleseed will the knowledge I gain from you translate to my future AR?
Click to expand...
Derek, the only stupid question is the one you don't ask.

The Tech-Sights that we recommend are basically the same as the M16A2. Click here for more info on the sights. (BTW, most folks who've tried both recommend the cheaper TSR-100 sights - the 200s aren't necessary.)
 
dwarven1 said:
Derek, the only stupid question is the one you don't ask.

The Tech-Sights that we recommend are basically the same as the M16A2. Click here for more info on the sights. (BTW, most folks who've tried both recommend the cheaper TSR-100 sights - the 200s aren't necessary.)
Click to expand...


Thanks Ross. I kind of figured the sights were the same but wanted to be sure. The more you guys talk about the specifics of using them the more confused I get. Hopefully I get out there this year.
 

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