Question on the hunter's education course

ben

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At the MassWildlife website on the Massachusetts Gun Licensing Requirements page, it says the following:

Class "A" and Class "B" License to Carry (LTC) Information

Your current LTC will be valid until its stated expiration date. New applicants must be 21 years of age or older to obtain a Class “A" or Class “B" permit. New applicants must complete a Mass. certified firearms safety course or a BASIC HUNTER EDUCATION COURSE. Class “A" and “B" LTC cost $100.00 and are valid for 6 years.

Firearms Identification (FID) Cards

The new FID card permits the purchase, possession and carrying of NON-LARGE CAPACITY RIFLES, SHOTGUNS and AMMUNITION ONLY. You must be at least 18 years old (or 15 - 17 years old with parental consent) to apply for an FID card. The fee for an FID card is $100.00 and it is valid for 6 years. New applicants must complete a Mass. approved firearms safety course or a BASIC HUNTER EDUCATION COURSE. A restricted FID card is available solely for the possession of mace or pepper spray. Applicants for the restricted FID are exempt from the education requirement.

http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/education/hed/hed_gun_laws.htm

But at mass.gov, it says the following:

Approved Basic Firearms Safety Courses
In Accordance with Massachusetts General Law Chapter . 140, § 131P and 515 CMR 3.00:


L.T.C. Basic Firearms Safety Courses

Certification #
Massachusetts Chiefs of Police Association Basic Handgun Safety Course LTC-001
NRA Basic Pistol Course LTC-002
NRA Personal Protection Course LTC-003
SIG Arms Academy Handgun Orientation Course LTC-004
Smith & Wesson Academy Massachusetts Carry Permit Course LTC-005
MCJTC Recruit Firearms Training Course LTC-006
*NRA Home Safety Course LTC-007
Worcester Police Department Firearms Responsibility and Safety Program LTC-008
Mass Sheriffs’Association’s Firearms Safety & Handling Course LTC-009
B.F.S.I. Handgun Safety Course LTC-010
Massachusetts State Police Recruit Firearms Training Program LTC-011
SIG Arms Concealed Carry Pistol Course LTC-012
USPSA Safe Handgun Competitor - MA Edition Firearms Course LTC-013
CQB Arms LTC Course LTC-014
The Andover Police Department's Basic Firearms Safety Course LTC-015
The MagPro Basic Firearms Safety Course LTC-016
Massachusetts Certified Basic Pistol Course LTC-017
CCW Point Blank Course LTC-018

* The NRA Home Safety Course which was previously certified for F. I. D. Cards only (course FID-002) has been reclassified for LTC
F.I.D. Card Basic Firearms Safety Courses

Certification #
NRA Basic Rifle Or Shotgun Courses FID-001
SIG Arms Academy Firearms Orientation and Familiarization Courses for Shotgun, Carbine or Rifle FID-003
Smith & Wesson Academy Massachusetts F.I.D. Safety Course FID-004

*Note: In addition to the courses listed under F.I.D. Cards, courses listed under L.T.C. Basic Firearms Safety Courses are approved safety courses for the purpose of issuing F.I.D. Basic Firearms Safety Certificates.

http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=eopster...oved_basic_firearms_safety_courses&csid=Eeops

So is the Basic Hunter Education Course approved for getting an F.I.D. Card, and eventually a Class "A" LTC? And if so, why is not included in the list of "Approved Courses"?

MassWildlife says their page was updated 9/21/2007. The list of "Approved Basic Firearms Safety Courses" was last updated 6/07/2007.
 
I'm guessing you are having trouble with this statement:
Your current LTC will be valid until its stated expiration date. New applicants must be 21 years of age or older to obtain a Class “A" or Class “B" permit. New applicants must complete a Mass. certified firearms safety course or a BASIC HUNTER EDUCATION COURSE. Class “A" and “B" LTC cost $100.00 and are valid for 6 years.

It is just poorly written. The statement "New applicants must complete a Mass. certified firearms safety course or a BASIC HUNTER EDUCATION COURSE. " is meant to apply to liscensing in general.

The Basic Hunter Safety Course does not apply to an LTC, only FID.

Most improtantly, why would you get an FID? (assuming you are >21)
 
I'm <21, so an FID is only option for me right now. But I want to take an LTC certified course to get my FID, so that I don't have to take another course later.

Really, I am too impatient to wait a year until I'm 21. Dad continues to build up his arsenal, and I want to get in on it. Just going down the road to shoot with him at the Winchendon Rod & Gun Club isn't enough anymore. Now you should know who I am, Matt[grin].
 
The Basic Hunter Safety Course does not apply to an LTC, only FID.

That's not correct (unless they changed something since April). The Hunter's Ed course WILL cover you for a Class A or B, in fact when I took mine earlier this year at least half of the class were taking it to get their LTC. What's funny is that the course covered nothing on handguns...
 
Here is the relevant language from the controlling regulation:

2) Basic Firearms Safety Course Curriculum Criteria. Curriculum for a BFS course shall include curriculum criteria as described in M.G.L.c. 140, § 131P(b).

(a) A BFS course used as a prerequisite for a FID shall use rifles and/or shotguns as the primary subject matter of the curriculum unless the course is an approved LTC BFS course. A BFS course used as a prerequisite for a LTC shall use pistols and/or revolvers as the primary subject matter of the curriculum.

(b) Certain BFS course curriculums do not contain a firearms related law component. Such curriculums can still meet Department of State Police curriculum criteria by utilizing guest speakers familiar with firearms laws or by utilizing or distributing to its students written informational pamphlets/books/videos by an entity/individual familiar with firearms laws to cover that portion of the course.

(3) FID Card Basic Firearms Safety Courses. The following BFS courses, with fulfillment of 515 CMR 3.05(2)(b) requirements as applicable, meet the Department of State Police's criteria for obtaining a FID card and are approved:

(a) NRA Basic Rifle or Shotgun Courses and NRA Home Safety Course;

(b) SIG Arms Academy Firearms Orientation and Familiarization Courses for Shotgun, Carbine or Rifle; and

(c) Smith & Wesson Academy Massachusetts F.I.D. Safety Training Course.

(d) Approved LTC Basic Firearms Safety Course as set forth in 515 CMR 3.05(4) or (5).

(4) LTC Basic Firearms Safety Courses. The following BFS courses, with fulfillment of 515 CMR 3.05(2)(b) requirements as applicable, meet the Department of State Police's criteria for obtaining a LTC and are approved:

(a) Massachusetts Chiefs of Police Association Basic Handgun Safety Course;

(b) NRA Basic Pistol Course, NRA Personal Protection Course or NRA Home Safety Course;

(c) SIG Arms Academy Handgun Orientation Course; and

(d) Smith & Wesson Academy Massachusetts Carry Permit Course

NOTE: Once duly licensed, there is NO lawful basis for requiring "re-certification" or any such BS. This includes applying for an LTC when one holds an FID.
 
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I'm <21, so an FID is only option for me right now. But I want to take an LTC certified course to get my FID, so that I don't have to take another course later.

Really, I am too impatient to wait a year until I'm 21. Dad continues to build up his arsenal, and I want to get in on it. Just going down the road to shoot with him at the Winchendon Rod & Gun Club isn't enough anymore. Now you should know who I am, Matt[grin].

HA!! Hey Ben... should have caught that!
 
Thanks, Scrivener.

The puzzling thing is that I emailed the Department of Public Safety, asking why the Basic Hunter Safety Course was not included in their list of Approved Courses. Their reply said I should refer my question to the Criminal History Systems Board. So I called the Board up. The man I talked to said some towns and cities accept the Hunter's Ed course for an LTC, while others do not. He suggested that I find out: "Take the Hunter's Ed Course, get your FID, and then after you turn 21, see if the local authorities will upgrade it to an LTC."

What a lot of sense that makes. Since firearms licensing requirements are determined at the state level, rather than the local level. Or at least, that's how they are supposed to be decided.

Perhaps the reason for the "muddle" is that the Hunter's Safety Course was just recently instituted, and in their wonderful timing, the bureaucrats have not yet fully integrated it in their regulations.
 
The puzzling thing is that I emailed the Department of Public Safety, asking why the Basic Hunter Safety Course was not included in their list of Approved Courses. Their reply said I should refer my question to the Criminal History Systems Board. So I called the Board up. The man I talked to said some towns and cities accept the Hunter's Ed course for an LTC, while others do not. He suggested that I find out: "Take the Hunter's Ed Course, get your FID, and then after you turn 21, see if the local authorities will upgrade it to an LTC."

Instead of talking to an unnamed and, probably, ill-informed "man;" talk to someone useful. Call back and ask for Board Counsel Erin Devaney. I think you'll get a qualitative response from her.
 
Perhaps the reason for the "muddle" is that the Hunter's Safety Course was just recently instituted, and in their wonderful timing, the bureaucrats have not yet fully integrated it in their regulations.

Huh? I'm not following you. The Hunter Safety Course in MA has been around for at least 15 years. There was a brief period after Ch. 180 of 1998 was passed that the Hunter's Safety Course was not required for a hunting license, but that was fixed a couple years later.
 
Huh? I'm not following you. The Hunter Safety Course in MA has been around for at least 15 years. There was a brief period after Ch. 180 of 1998 was passed that the Hunter's Safety Course was not required for a hunting license, but that was fixed a couple years later.

Well, I was wrong on that one. Thanks for the correction[grin].
 
Erin Devaney doesn't work there anymore. But I did finally get hold of someone who knew what he was talking about. Didn't catch his name, though.

According to MGL Chapter 140, Section 131p, completing a Basic Hunter Education Course is sufficient for an LTC.

Section 131P. (a) Any person making application for the issuance of a firearms identification card under section 129B, a Class A or Class B license to carry firearms under section 131 or 131F or a permit to purchase under section 131A who was not licensed under the provisions of this chapter on June 1, 1998 shall, in addition to the requirements set forth in said section 129B, 131, 131A or 131F, submit to the licensing authority a basic firearms safety certificate; provided, however, that a certificate issued by the division of law enforcement in the department of fisheries, wildlife and environmental law enforcement pursuant to the provisions of section 14 of chapter 131 evidencing satisfactory completion of a hunter education course shall serve as a valid substitute for a basic firearms safety certificate required under this section;

He stated further that it is not on the "approved list" because it is right there in the statute. According to the state police, therefore, no need for it to be listed again.
 
I understand this thread is 12 years old but I wanted to show appreciation for Ben's clarification. Here's what's going on for me and my LTC-A application;
My local PD had rejected my application without processing it. The clerk stated that the state will not except my hunters education certification as a valid basic firearms safety certificate. I told the clerk that is not true, I know people in the next town over that didn't have a problem and she told me I was mistaken and refused to take my word for it. We reviewed the notes on the application to where she made her own skewed interpretations of the requirements and law (don't you just love that). I continued to disagree with her and she told me to call the number on the application and if she's wrong to have them call her.

Well I called the number. They told me she was wrong and that they will not call her - rather she should call if she doesn't understand the state law. I have section 131P in front of me which clearly states regarding FID, LTC-A, LTC-B & purchasing permit, "satisfactory completion of a hunter education course shall serve as a valid substitute for a basic firearms safety certificate required under this section. "
See law here

Know your laws because your local PD may not be educated on the matter. If they tell you your Massachusetts hunter safety certificate is not a valid fire arms safety certificate, they are wrong and clearly haven't reviewed the law on "Basic firearms safety certificate" *General Law -> Part I -> Title XX -> Chapter 140 -> Section 131P.

I'm going back today to inform her on state law and who to call. I'm pretty frustrated that I took time off work to get booked and quickly got rejected because the clerk is oblivious to the state law while other towns nearby have absolutely no issue with such credentials. It's embarrassing to me, and to the local PD for being uneducated on something that has been set as law over 20 years ago.

-KML
 
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They took it this time. Set up another appointment to be booked. She had said this town has not seen or approved those applications with such certificates before and the chief will need to say it's okay - to which I reply "I'm a bit surprised because like I said yesterday I know people in the town over that didn't have a problem".

"This will not go well for you if you continue to be rude".

I feel I shouldn't have to defend my character. Perhaps a bit nervous. But she clearly does not like it when someone has something to prove and is trying to intimidate me.

I grew up here by the way. Right next to the station. I'm on a first name basis with many of the officers. I'm not sure what will happen but I may have to contact my state authorities and tell them what's going on.
-KML
 
That sucks! I hate the "I know more than you" or basically "I'm better than you" intimidation. There's no reason for that, and having been in that situation, I understand your frustration, because your options are very limited, or as she threatened "Things won't go well". Good luck to you, please keep us posted...
 
Thanks for your opinion on the matter.

I'm scheduled to get processed tomorrow during my lunch hour. Other than having to deal with the unreasonable PD clerk I'm hoping the chief acknowledges the state law as well as my credentials as a good applicant. If they refuse my application again, they are breaking state law. If the chief denies my application, I will appeal it with the state. Or just wait until the summer and move over the bridge to a town that isn't power hungry with multiple open 2A lawsuits - at least that’s what a friend has told me.

-KML
 
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The Hunter Safety Course "allows you to apply for" your Gun licences sometimes the 351 PD's have there own added req'ts that aren't officially legal.

Call them up at the Hunter Safety office in Westborough & they might be able to call the Chief & straighten them out (508) 389–7820

 
I'm 28 from the 413 area.

I was looking at the town website to find the firearms information page. There are only two documents. One holds this;
"New License to Carry (LTC) applicants must have completed an approved firearms safety course. New Firearms Identification Card (FID) applicants must have completed an approved basic hunter safety course."

I'm hoping they don't throw that at me. I'm not sure how that's legal when it contradicts the state law. In reality it doesn't hold - it's just something someone unknown had written for the town.

I'm by far not an activist. If anything I'm a non-aggressor and keep to myself for the most part. But if they are lying to people and placing restrictions where they legally can't, I would like to see that fixed.

-KM
PDs don't typically worry about what is legal or not. No individual has the time or money to go after them, but Comm2A does and has scared some "religion" into some PDs.

In reality, the HE course that I took was so poorly done (and with some significant mis-information on Mass gun laws) that I can understand why some PDs refuse to accept those certs for an LTC (or even an FID).
 
To hear that the PDs don't worry about what is legal is concerning.

I have nothing but respect for my local PD and expect the same in return. I've already been treated poorly by someone who can't properly explain or back up their interpretations of the state law and calls me rude when I have to do that for them - I was as polite as I could be.

I heard their's a new chief here. I hope they are at least reasonable. If they have a preference I'll gladly oblige. But if they flat out tell me I'm wrong and don't know what I'm talking about I will take offense and convey my opposition.
-KML
 
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I'm just upset that I went into this thinking I had it figured out. I have friends who've been with Massachusetts Fisheries & Wildlife for years who had perused this route without any issue what-so-ever. They had recommended it and are appalled at the responses that I am getting from my local PD.

You're right that it is a battle ground. As I said, if the chief has a preference for me I will oblige.

I'm sorry about how it went for you. Perhaps times have changed. But no one should be treated like shit and rejected without a legitimate reason.
Call me soft.

-KML
No one said “soft”. Best.
 
Was booked with no issues. She was very polite today. I'm optimistically hoping she reviewed the copy of section 131P that I had left her and talked to the chief.

Thank you all for your attention - it did provide peace of mind. I'm looking forward to getting more involved with the firearms community and am excited to hit the range on my own.

Now we wait. I'll post here when I get the call.

-KML
 
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Picked up my LTC today - no restrictions.
Other than the issue at first - being why I started to post on this thread, everything went without a hitch. It shows that not everyone at your local PD is familiar with the laws in it's entirety. Sadly I had to serve the clerk a copy of the law in order for my opposition to hold water and that really pissed her off at first. But I've gotten an apology and she had acknowledged the poor service (not to me, but to a friend about my case) - likely to avoid ridicule in the town forum. I find it pretty embarrassing since her position only involves processing fire arms applications and sex offender registrations. So her telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about was inappropriate and flat out wrong. And of course I didn't appreciate her intimidation tactic as if I'm going to have trouble with the police.

Now that's straightened out I hope anyone that follows has a more easy going experience handing in their applications with a hunters ed certificate. Know the law just in case.

Thanks for the support, guys!
-KML
 
Picked up my LTC today - no restrictions.
Other than the issue at first - being why I started to post on this thread, everything went without a hitch. It shows that not everyone at your local PD is familiar with the laws in it's entirety. Sadly I had to serve the clerk a copy of the law in order for my opposition to hold water and that really pissed her off at first. But I've gotten an apology and she had acknowledged the poor service (not to me, but to a friend about my case) - likely to avoid ridicule in the town forum. I find it pretty embarrassing since her position only involves processing fire arms applications and sex offender registrations. So her telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about was inappropriate and flat out wrong. And of course I didn't appreciate her intimidation tactic as if I'm going to have trouble with the police.

Now that's straightened out I hope anyone that follows has a more easy going experience handing in their applications with a hunters ed certificate. Know the law just in case.

Thanks for the support, guys!
-KML
My local PD told my kid that you needed to be 18 to apply for an FID (it's 15 with parental permission), then
My local PD told my kid that the FID was $100 (it's $25 for <18), but he was prepared with a printout of the relevant statue.

It's on YOU to know the laws....
 
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