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Question on pinning variation legality

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p0cketpenguins

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Hey guys,

I am ordering a Magpul MOE stock for my ar15. Since it is a collapsible stock, I know that I need to pin it so that it wont collapse. However I would like the ability to remove the pin with tools and adjust the length. Is it legal to put a pin through the lever of the collapsible stock so that the lever and the collapsible motion is disabled (the pin will not be going through the bottom strip of the buffer tube)?

thanks
pp
 
The answer is: no one is going to be able to give you an answer.

If you want to be 99% safe, blind pin and epoxy it so it cannot be adjusted without ruining the stock.
 
There's no definitive answer as there's no case law on it. No one has ever been convicted of not properly pinning a stock. Do what you think is adequate and don't waive it in front of an ATF agent asking if its ok.
 
xtry51 said:
There's no definitive answer as there's no case law on it. No one has ever been convicted of not properly pinning a stock.
Click to expand...

Actually in August 2010 a guy with an LTC was convicted (well, pled guilty) for possessing a post ban rifle/shotgun and six post-ban mags. There's several links to his case in the AWB thread in my sigline. We can only guess what he got busted with, but it's certainly possible that he didn't pin a stock well enough. If someone here went to the PD and courthouse they could find out exactly what he got in trouble for and how the expert identified them with a request for documents; they'd only be charged a small copying fee.

There's also this recent case out of NY. It's not even slightly binding in Mass. since it happened out of state, but it's fairly common for the Mass. courts to examine cases from other jurisdictions when considering a gray area of MGL.
 
p0cketpenguins said:
So, pinning the stock through the collapsible lever is OK to do as long as it needs a tool to drive it out?
Click to expand...

Nobody knows and if you ask for a clarification from the state you won't get an answer. The problem is MA is not abundantly clear on case law as to whether or not they would adopt pre-existing fed interpretations. (EG, for example, BATFE tech branch used to do this).

I know one thing is for certain, though... a lot of the new factory pinning jobs are 100 times weaker than they were during the federal ban. Back then a lot of the false collapsibles were designed in such a way that basically the buffer tube and everything was a huge turd that could never be turned into a real collapsible. About the only thing you could do with the old ones was use some redneck engineering on them to change the length of pull, and even that was difficult. So take that piece of info for whatever it is or isn't worth. This sort of indicates to me that the manufs don't think the states are as strict as the ATF was on this issue. Then again, they're not the ones absorbing the legal liability with regards to an AWB violation, either.

My advice would be to forego this pinning BS (eg, ruining an otherwise perfectly good stock) and just use a fixed stock set at the length you want. It's 1000 times less lame (IMO there's nothing gayer on a rifle than a collapsible stock which is pinned into one position forever) and it dodges any (real or imagined) legal issues.

-Mike
 
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Digging up an old thread...

In the AWB sticky, wording is:
Q: What legally Constitutes a correct "pinning" of an adjustable or folding stock so that it is not considered as such under the law?

A: Nobody really knows. The generally accepted premise is that it must not be able to be restored to its original state without the use of tools.

My question is, could you do a recessed allen bolt that would make it so the stock could not be moved without the use of a tool ( allen key ).
 
zbomb said:
Digging up an old thread...

In the AWB sticky, wording is:
Q: What legally Constitutes a correct "pinning" of an adjustable or folding stock so that it is not considered as such under the law?

A: Nobody really knows. The generally accepted premise is that it must not be able to be restored to its original state without the use of tools.

My question is, could you do a recessed allen bolt that would make it so the stock could not be moved without the use of a tool ( allen key ).
Click to expand...

Did you read this thread at all? [rofl]

There is no clean answer for what constitutes a "pinning standard". The old nostrum was that as long as adjustment required tools it was good enough. Most people just use a roll pin or something like that.

An allen screw might legally work.... because it still involves a tool, but who knows.

Part of the problem is the people doing the prosecuting in MA would never clarify it for you... that's what we're
up against. AWB case law is also exceptionally rare.

-Mike
 
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No answer and it's never been tested in court, so YMMV. That being said the way S&W ships pinned stocks and mags with roll pins you only need a pair of needle nose pliers to make them operational again. So there you go.
 
xtry51 said:
No answer and it's never been tested in court, so YMMV. That being said the way S&W ships pinned stocks and mags with roll pins you only need a pair of needle nose pliers to make them operational again. So there you go.
Click to expand...

Hmmm, I have a S&W, I'm going to take a look at that when I get home.

Thanks.
 
Is there any kind of bullet button available for an adjustable stock? That counts as a tool according to California courts right?
 
dennism said:
Is there any kind of bullet button available for an adjustable stock? That counts as a tool according to California courts right?
Click to expand...

What CA thinks is a tool has no legal relevance here in MA.

-Mike
 
dennism said:
Is there any kind of bullet button available for an adjustable stock? That counts as a tool according to California courts right?
Click to expand...

The the word "tool" doesn't appear in the law, so whether it would or wouldn't is completely irrelevant. This is yet another common misconception that won't die.
 
xtry51 said:
No answer and it's never been tested in court, so YMMV. That being said the way S&W ships pinned stocks and mags with roll pins you only need a pair of needle nose pliers to make them operational again. So there you go.
Click to expand...

Just checked mine, funny enough the roll pin that came from S&W was literally 3/4 of the way out...and I have never touched it.

Once removed though, I found the stock is not even adjustable anyway.

jasons said:
The the word "tool" doesn't appear in the law, so whether it would or wouldn't is completely irrelevant. This is yet another common misconception that won't die.
Click to expand...

I'm sure one of the reasons the misconception stays alive is the wording from the AWB FAQ: "The generally accepted premise is that it must not be able to be restored to its original state without the use of tools"
 
zbomb said:
Just checked mine, funny enough the roll pin that came from S&W was literally 3/4 of the way out...and I have never touched it.

Once removed though, I found the stock is not even adjustable anyway.
Click to expand...

Double check it just not hung up on a burr. If it has a roll pin it is adjustable. The non adjustable stock guns do not have a pin.
 
It's not hung up. There is an Allen screw that holds the tab you push for adjustment. The screw is threaded up into the bottom of the buffer tube.

Also, no detents.

ETA Photo

photo-1051.jpg
 
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