question on "brandishing of a firearm"

When in doubt, ask. Which I did today with one of our States finest and while his answer was a lot more eloquent it boils down to it being how the judge/jury/da will look at the case.

You can have a gun out and not pointed.... You could have a gun out and pointed. Really depends on the person judging the 'case' and your intent at the time.

Also the Assault will go hand in hand with the Battery.
 
You will love my answer - it depends. It is rarely ever acceptable to use deadly force when not presented with deadly force in MA (not true in other states). Pulling out your gun to fend off the thugs may be considered reasonable force, but it depends on the surrounding factual circumstances. It is not possible to articulate a bright line test when you can pull your gun and when you can't.

Again, the factual cirumstances are key. I know this isn't a particularly useful answer.
I am sorry, but you are giving really bad advice here that may get someone killed. What the poster described is called disparity of force. Two vs one and you better be clearing leather before you are unconcious on the floor (or worse).
 
That was my belief, that you can use "prevention of crime" as a defense to an assault charge. Assault requires the intent to cause harm, so you claim that your intent was to prevent a crime not to cause harm.

doesn't the prevention of crime have an intent to cause harm on the alleged crime doer? just thought that was funny
 
doesn't the prevention of crime have an intent to cause harm on the alleged crime doer? just thought that was funny

I see your point, but I think the defense would be that your intent was to use the threat of force to stop the crime, and you did not actually intend to use that force. If you actually did use the force to stop the crime, you would have committed assault and battery, not simply assault. Then the 'prevention of crime' defense would probably be a harder sell, and you'd end up in the 'fear of imminent deadly harm' type arguments.
 
I am sorry, but you are giving really bad advice here that may get someone killed. What the poster described is called disparity of force. Two vs one and you better be clearing leather before you are unconcious on the floor (or worse).

Well, this may be your opinion, but your advice to draw first and ask questions later may keep you alive, but as discussed throughout this post, is not necessarily free and clear of getting you charged with assault or other crime.

Are you implying that every time you feel threatened by more than one person it is okay to draw your gun?

If so, that is absolutely absurd.
 
What about for the smaller person though? If I stand 5 feet tall and 120 soaking wet and am approached by a larger person who was say 6 feet and 250...I would be in the wrong for de-escalating the situation by means of display? Any hit from a person outclassing you by 70+ pounds has great potential to be a fatal hit.

I stand 6'3" and 260lbs. Most people appear smaller or weaker next to me. I also have a herniated disc in my back and spent a year walking with a cane. That's down to 6 to 8 weeks a year using the cane. The rest of the time, if I'm careful, I move around without much trouble. High curbs still suck, though. If I took a swing at you, yes, you'd go down but probably so would I.

<outrage>
So, since I look like an ox, I have to take a physical beating that I never provoked (or see a gun/knife) before I can react. And in that beating the thug has the opportunity to discover and grab my handgun.

In a 'just' society, no person should have to endure an unprovoked attack on their person.

'Like' force is fine when thuggie is calling you names, but when he goes to strike you, in that 'just' society he just gave up his right to be free from attack. I should not have to endure a stubbed TOE because thuggie want's money / car / wife / etc or is just in a drunken bad mood.

In OUR society, yes, I know. Assume the position: Bent over forwards with pants down.
</outrage>

One good thing about being this size (for me anyway) is that most would be thugs will wait for easier looking prey.

Random thought of the day. About 20 years ago I met an 81 that made ME feel like a Keebler Elf. I'd swear he was 6'10" and 400 and looked like he bench pressed cars. There is ALWAYS someone bigger and stronger.
 
So, since I look like an ox, I have to take a physical beating that I never provoked (or see a gun/knife) before I can react. And in that beating the thug has the opportunity to discover and grab my handgun.

In a 'just' society, no person should have to endure an unprovoked attack on their person.

'Like' force is fine when thuggie is calling you names, but when he goes to strike you, in that 'just' society he just gave up his right to be free from attack. I should not have to endure a stubbed TOE because thuggie want's money / car / wife / etc or is just in a drunken bad mood.

In OUR society, yes, I know. Assume the position: Bent over forwards with pants down.
</outrage>

One good thing about being this size (for me anyway) is that most would be thugs will wait for easier looking prey.

Random thought of the day. About 20 years ago I met an 81 that made ME feel like a Keebler Elf. I'd swear he was 6'10" and 400 and looked like he bench pressed cars. There is ALWAYS someone bigger and stronger.

Thats the thing, you have to as an armed individual de-escalate the situation as best as possible since the firearm is the last resort, but if its going to come to blows and the disparity of force compels you to clear leather to extract yourself from the situation...you should do so.

On the contrary though for someone of your size its a harder case as most people wont mess with you. But your right to defend yourself should trump any law on the books despite what the state that is actively trying to disarm you attempts to indoctrinate into the masses.

Well, this may be your opinion, but your advice to draw first and ask questions later may keep you alive, but as discussed throughout this post, is not necessarily free and clear of getting you charged with assault or other crime.

Are you implying that every time you feel threatened by more than one person it is okay to draw your gun?

If so, that is absolutely absurd.

How is that absurd? At best and even as I mentioned the charges, if they come about are going to be discretionary based on where in the system you wind up if the case against you is of merit or gets traction.

If you are outnumbered in a situation that will cause grave danger or significant harm to you, or wind up with the loss of your firearm due to you following the 'mindset' of the state and laying down to get kicked in the head by 3 guys who take your wallet and the free gun...you are still screwed. Your life is your own to protect.
 
You changed the hypothetical - which was originally disparity of force and not "a situation that will cause grave danger or significant harm to you."

It is absurd because no court in any state will find it to be reasonable that a mere disparity of force, without surrounding factual cirumstances to show clearly that the disparity of force was reasonably likely to cause you imminent, serious bodily harm, is justification for threatening others with your gun. You must be threatened with deadly force to responsd in kind with deadly force.


Imagine standing in front of a judge/jury where the following would happen:


Prosecutor: Mr. X, you saw two large individuals right?

Mr X: Yes.

Prosecutor: And they were coming toward you in a threatening manner?

Mr. X: Yes, I thought so.

Prosecutor: But they didn't hit you, touch you, or throw anything at you did before you pulled out your gun, right?

Mr. X: No.

Prosecutor: So you pulled out your gun simply because you felt outnumbered didn't you?

Mr. X: Yes.




now prosecutor calls "innocent thug" to the stand and asks him the following open-ended question:

Prosecutor: What happened on the night of ...?

Innocent Thug: Me and my homie was just walkin' along in Roxbury, when we came up on some dude who pulled out his gun and started waiving it at us saying he was going to shoot us. He even pointed it at me. That guy was just crazy.

Prosecutor: Oh my god, what did you do?

Innocent Thug: I jumped on the ground and called 911. Glad the police showed up when they did. I thought I was about to get shot yet again.

So, in almost no time you have been characterized as a crazy gun toting guy who pulls it out willy-nilly anytime he is nervous or feels threatened. A Suffolk County jury would give you the death penalty if they could.

In other words, a disparity of force, by itself, is not a license to whip out your gun. A prosecutor will spin this against you, so you better have some good facts and other witnesses to enforce your case.

In no way am I saying that it is always wrong to pull your gun. Just be aware of what may happen in MA if you do without proper justification. In most other states, I believe this would not be the result.

Yet another reason this state sucks - guilty until you prove your innocence.
 
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You changed the hypothetical - which was originally disparity of force and not "a situation that will cause grave danger or significant harm to you."

Its the same thing, perhaps I chose poor wording, the disparity of force should be present towards the situation that would cause grave danger or significant harm. Meaning this has all occurred after you have attempted verbal de-escalation and in some cases some acquiescence.

Baystatesuks said:
Prosecutor: And they were coming toward you in a threatening manner?
[snip]
Perfect example. And highlights why you need to have utilized every method available to you to quit the situation before regarding the firearm into play.
Baystatesuks said:
In other words, a disparity of force, by itself, is not a license to whip out your gun. A prosecutor will spin this against you, so you better have some good facts and other witnesses to enforce your case.

Absolutely. Thats the discretionary portion I'm speaking on, its really going to depend on WHO decides to be offended by your actions, if could be a LEO, a Judge or an overzealous DA who needs to make a name for himself.

At no time in the situation you outlined should anyone draw on someone, as in that scenario they are in the wrong, they became the aggressor and deserve to have the book thrown at them.

Baystatesuks said:
In no way am I saying that it is always wrong to pull your gun. Just be aware of what is likely to happen in MA if you do. Yet another reason this state sucks!

Agreed.
 
I'm fully aware that if you're going to draw your weapon on someone, you better be in fear of your life or grave bodily injury. Any other circumstances and you will probably be charged with assault with a deadly weapon. But my question here is: what about the not-so-sure area? hypothetical scenario: You're walking to your parked car and someone is approaching you and you have no idea what their intentions are. They have made no apparent threat toward you but are very near your close proximity. Lets say you asked: "Can I help you?" when they were 15 feet from you. If they didn't answer and kept coming toward you, It would be my instinct to turn my strong side away from them and at least get a firm grip on my gun. If you haven't shown that person your gun but have made it pretty clear that you've reached for something, could that be considered brandishing your firearm? If it turned out the person was just going to ask for directions, or thought you were someone else, and freaked out because you're reaching for something that is most likely a weapon, would they be able to have charges brought against you for assault? I might come off as being paranoid, but really I'm not. A guy quietly approached me late one night while I was walking to my car and as I turned to face him he said "oh, sorry, you're not Dan" or something like that. He had gotten too close for my comfort and I still wonder what his intentions really were. I didn't reach for my gun because my hands were full of groceries. What would you do in this case? Is it considered assault to just "get ready"?

Excellent post. Right in my wheelhouse. :)
 
This is directed at myself more than the two guys who just responded to this thread...

picard-facepalm.jpg
 
So you are being assaulted and at what point do you decide this may become deadly?

At the point where a 4.5 year old thread that I started regarding a "brandishing" question, is inadvertently resurrected by me. (In that I invited others to search for posts that I made here in my first year as a member, and one member was able to find a particularly "newbish" one.)

[sad2]

Can i haz put out of my misery now?
 
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It is a very old thread but the question or subject matter is something we all may face or have to decide on what to do. I was recently 'cornered' in a parking lot, 1 am, by a guy who was about twice my size and he damanded money. I was about 10 seconds away from drawing on him. (I was actually counting down in my head) Anyway, if you (and I mean anyone who CCW's) don't have any idea how you should or will react in situations you may want to read 'old' or new threads and think about these things.

Why is it a bad idea to bring up old threads if you still are not sure? I get hammered when I post a new thread about something already posted, even if that old post didn't answer my question.
 
I was recently 'cornered' in a parking lot, 1 am, by a guy who was about twice my size and he demanded money. I was about 10 seconds away from drawing on him. (I was actually counting down in my head)

Well don't leave us hangin' man!! What the hell happened?!! And at what number did you start the countdown? [wink]
 
Very long story, after the third request for me to empty my pockets i started at 10 and lucky for me and him he took off? As quick as it started it ended? The first words out of his mouth when he steped in front of me out from behind a car was 'do you know who I am? do you know what I do?' I stood my ground and told him I had no money. The bigest thing for me was, prior to this event I carried a Glock 27 and never had a round chambered. You think, if I have time to draw chambering a round will be quick. WRONG. My fear was if he grabs one arm there is no way to draw and chamber a round. I now have one ready in the pipe always! I did get his plate and had a buddy look him up. Was going to file some kind of complaint but was intructed to let it go although it still does bothers me I did. I actually wanted to start a thread titled "What would you do if" to get other peoples thoughts and experiences with these types of situations but thought it would get shut down rather quickly.

After looking him up I found this picture of him on facebook, enough said, he is a moron!
imagesCA8NWOXW.jpg
 
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I didn't reach for my gun because my hands were full of groceries. What would you do in this case?

This is why I always carry my groceries on my weak arm, even if I have 6 bags.

You really need to trust your instincts, if you have a bad feeling, the hair on your neck stands up, etc.. Prepare yourself.

I see nothing wrong with turning your strong side away and getting a grip on your firearm.
 
Always keep your gun hand free if possible. If someone shady is heading your way in a dark parking lot scream " get the **** away from me!" In a good command voice.

During the 4.5 years since I started this thread, I've mastered my HARD BLOCK, and GOOD COMMAND VOICE skills. I am much more confident now, and go about my grocery-getting with no fear.
 
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