45collector
NES Member
that's what I'm curious about. I would agree that it is possible I could be charged. but how is it assault if the "perp" never sees it?
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question on "brandishing of a firearm"
- Thread starter 45collector
- Start date
that's what I'm curious about. I would agree that it is possible I could be charged. but how is it assault if the "perp" never sees it?
Discounting some idiot attempting to rob Bruce Lee, lets just go with a reasonably small person of stature who has had minimal street fights and or muggings.
45collector
NES Member
it is factually dependant on a lot of things.
but the fact that no one is seeing my gun, not the "perp", or any possible witnesses, might keep me out of the clink.
please describe Mr. 45Collector's gun: was it black?, bright? small? big?
revolver? semi-auto? what kind of gun was it? so you didn't see it?
oh, I guess no one saw it.
but the fact that no one is seeing my gun, not the "perp", or any possible witnesses, might keep me out of the clink.
please describe Mr. 45Collector's gun: was it black?, bright? small? big?
revolver? semi-auto? what kind of gun was it? so you didn't see it?
oh, I guess no one saw it.
How sure are you that he can't see it? For me to grab my gun from a strong side hip holster, the coat has to be brushed back.
With pocket carry, your hand is just in your pocket. When drawing a firearm from a strong-side hip holster (if that is how you are carrying), your arm is in a pretty distinctive position that many people would recognize.
A lot of it comes down to the definition of assault in MA, and that appears to be part of common law, not statute. I'm not an attorney, so I'm in over my head at this point. I thought that I'd read at least one article by MA attorney suggesting that a simple threat could be assault, but I may be misremembering it. I'll try to find the article tonight.
From a tactical perspective, if he is that close it will likely start with grappling and you might be better served having your hands in front of you, rather than one hand on a gun which you can't use.
You can certainly commit an assault without a gun or any weapon. I could walk up to you and yell "I am going to hit you square in the face right now."
I have likely assaulted you. If I actually hit you, then I battered you as well.
It is the intent element that is key. I intended to cause you to have a reasonable apprehension that an unwanted touching was imminent.
Sorry, but I think you misunderstood me. I never said that you must have a gun other weapon to commit assault. What I said was that if the perp does not have a gun or other weapon, you are unlikely to be legally justified to use your own.
You will love my answer - it depends. It is rarely ever acceptable to use deadly force when not presented with deadly force in MA (not true in other states). Pulling out your gun to fend off the thugs may be considered reasonable force, but it depends on the surrounding factual circumstances. It is not possible to articulate a bright line test when you can pull your gun and when you can't.
Again, the factual cirumstances are key. I know this isn't a particularly useful answer.
For what it is worth, if I were experiencing the same circumstances as the posed hyopthetical and reasonably feared for my life and/or the life of my wife, kids, etc., my gun would be out. That doesn't mean it is legal to do it though.
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Maybe. What if you think he has a gun because he is reaching into his pocket and you see the glare of something metal (might turn out to be his pocket watch)? Maybe he even says "I am going to get my gun out of my pocket and shoot you" prior to reaching in his pocket.
You can't brandish if you can't shoot. Until and unless it goes well beyond pushing and shoving, I don't think you can draw your gun and shoot.
You will be judged by the "reasonable man" standard. Would a reasonable man, knowing what you knew at the time, believe you were in immediate danger of death or grave bodily injury. If you thought he had a gun and thought he was going for it, then you would likely be justified in drawing yours. But Lord help you if you shoot and it turns out he doesn't have one -- I'm not saying that you can't win that defense, but it will likely be harder.
45collector
NES Member
yes, here's a good point too. if he's proceded to start grappling or handling you in any other way, (maybe trying to get your wallet), you still would be in the wrong for pulling out your gun. if he's got no weapons, and he's not breaking your face, your life is not necessarily in danger. but while you're grappling, there may be a hidden accomplice somewhere ready to pounce in and grab your gun, if he finds it. there are so many different factors, what is the best course of action? you can never know because you don't know what's going to happen next.
The most bothersome thing to me - what is a reasonable MA citizen likely to have done under the cirumstances. Defining "reasonable" in this state is not as simple as opening Webster's dictionary.
JimConway
Instructor
One way for dealing with unknowns approaching you
The first thing that you have to do right now is to develop a canned set of responses for an unknown that is approaching you
1. Polite - Sir, could you hold it right there
2. Stronger - I told you to stop
3. Very strong - Stop right where f***ing are. If you choose to use profanity, be sure that it is not a personal attack, such as You f***ing a**hole, stop. If you do this, it may well escalate the situation.
As I said these responses MUST be canned and rehearsed. You DO NOT want to have a discussion with the guy, because when you are talking you are thinking about what you want to say and not about your safety.
While you are giving your responses, your hands should be up, palms out at he level of your upper chest as if you were going to catch a softball. In combatives, this is called a "fence" By having your hands high you can fend off easily or do a number of strikes.
Ross, I know that you mentioned pepper spray, but I think that it is far more important to have both hands free. If you choose to escalate the force level, you become the BG in the eyes of the court.
Marcus Wynne/Paul Vunak’s Seal Blitz is just one very good option that is particularly good for women’s self protection and is not physically demanding
Southnarc's eye flick is also a good choice for the same reasons. Both tectniques can be learned and retained in a few minutes.
As far as a gun goes, it is your last resort.
The first thing that you have to do right now is to develop a canned set of responses for an unknown that is approaching you
1. Polite - Sir, could you hold it right there
2. Stronger - I told you to stop
3. Very strong - Stop right where f***ing are. If you choose to use profanity, be sure that it is not a personal attack, such as You f***ing a**hole, stop. If you do this, it may well escalate the situation.
As I said these responses MUST be canned and rehearsed. You DO NOT want to have a discussion with the guy, because when you are talking you are thinking about what you want to say and not about your safety.
While you are giving your responses, your hands should be up, palms out at he level of your upper chest as if you were going to catch a softball. In combatives, this is called a "fence" By having your hands high you can fend off easily or do a number of strikes.
Ross, I know that you mentioned pepper spray, but I think that it is far more important to have both hands free. If you choose to escalate the force level, you become the BG in the eyes of the court.
Marcus Wynne/Paul Vunak’s Seal Blitz is just one very good option that is particularly good for women’s self protection and is not physically demanding
Southnarc's eye flick is also a good choice for the same reasons. Both tectniques can be learned and retained in a few minutes.
As far as a gun goes, it is your last resort.
There doesn't have to be an accomplice and there doesn't have to be a weapon for someone to get killed. Remember the hockey dad fight? http://archives.cnn.com/2002/LAW/01/25/hockey.death.verdict/index.html
Where's the line between a fist fight and being beaten to death? There is no bright line and you can go from one to the other in a heartbeat.
Where's the line between a fist fight and being beaten to death? There is no bright line and you can go from one to the other in a heartbeat.
Do you keep your cell phone in a cellphone holster at your 4:00 position? When reaching for your cell phone, do you rest your hand on it in its holster, with your elbow cocked in the air?
Didn't think so.
There's almost always a witness. Lying to the police is almost never a good strategy -- then they never believe another word that you said. Better to keep your mouth shut.
^ What he said. Better to say nothing. If you just have to say something, then don't lie. Tell them the weather sucks or something else irrelevant.
I guess, if you didn't have surgury on your wrist, which still my be stiff from being in a splint for four weeks, or trying to get the cell phone out of it's holder while being at a higher than normal stress level, your arm and elbow would look to be somewhat out of place. But your elbow being cocked doesn't always mean your reaching for your gun.
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![[wink]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/002.gif "Wink [wink]")
Thats what I quoted earlier. While I understand the strictness of the law I think in a situation where you are vastly outmatched and have tried to de-escalate the situation as best you can by verbal means, acquiescence, or fleeing that that is clearly grounds to employ a means of assertive defense. While one is not likely to be able to use the Junta defense it is nonetheless a mitigating factor in choosing when to actually present rather than indicate. We all know the laws and the grey areas, but under 7 feet you have no other options against a determined attacker who has you cornered.
Good point. My current bout with bursitis has me reaching for pocketed items in odd ways.
But more to the point ... this thread ought to be renamed "An Ounce of Paranoia".
We've all heard the old saw ... "An Ounce of Prevention is Worth a Pound of Cure". Maybe we need a new chapter in that book, something along the lines of "An Ounce of Paranoia Requires Four Pounds of Pistol". Reading through the whole thread made me feel vaguely ill.
What ever happened to common sense? Why this silly talk about "tactical" situations and positioning? It's a parking lot encounter with a stranger we're talking about. Happens every hour of every day. The "lethal encounter" scenario is bull$hit wishful thinking, IMO.
Get a grip boys. JimConway offers some insight here. I don't know him, or who he is ... but PM him for some training, because it sounds like he understands that de-escalation is preferred over confrontation. And that's as true in armed encounters as it is in unarmed ones.
Get .... a ... grip.
![[rolleyes]](/xen/styles/default/xenforo/smilies.vb/042.gif "Roll Eyes [rolleyes]")
(let the negative rep points begin ....)
JimConway
Instructor
That is nonsense. You have all got into the "all I have is a hammer and everything looks like a nail" symdrome. If you want to explore this type of situations, I humbly suggest that you need some level of skills in combatives, including empty hand, stick, knife and handgun.
Just so that you understand, Combatives are not to be confused with normal martial arts. Based upon what I have seen, a combatives trained man or woman will win almost all of the time in these situations. Nothing is 100%.
For example I have seen a man with multiple black belts literally rolled up onto a ball by a guy with only a little combatives training. I had a black belt that worked for me a few years ago, that got beaten real bad in at least 2 street fights that I know of.
As I am sure you all know, it takes a long time to be good in martial arts. Combatives's techniques, on the other hand, are quick to learn, dirty, underhanded, unfair and definitely not nice.
I know of a woman that received 10 minutes of training in the "Btitz", and never practiced the technique. About 2 years later, she used it and defeated a much larger male.
Get a grip boys. JimConway offers some insight here. I don't know him, or who he is ... but PM him for some training, because it sounds like he understands that de-escalation is preferred over confrontation. And that's as true in armed encounters as it is in unarmed ones.
Get .... a ... grip.
(let the negative rep points begin ....)
You got a positive rep point from me. I agree with you completely. The gun is a last resort, not a solution to all of your problems. I've got my first class with Jim and his team coming up this weekend, and I can't wait. Just the bits and pieces he's given for free are great, I'm looking forward to a full weekend of training. He means it when he says to come by Westford on sunday afternoons. He's happily answered any and all of my questions and offered plenty of excellent shooting tips. His marketing plan of being a class act and a nice guy has worked great, since I signed up for a paying class.
The key foundation for all these scenarios is situational awareness. Since learning about the concept, I've found it instructive to watch other people and see how much they watch their surroundings. Just the other day, I was in the parking lot of store. From about 30 yards away, I saw a woman futzing with opening her trunk and stowing her purchases. In the entire time I was walking toward her, she never turned her head, and she wasn't when I looked back after passing her either. I walked within 5 feet of her, and there's no way she ever noticed I was there. That's not the situation you want to put yourself in. It's important to talk over scenarios and train for the worst, but paying attention goes along way toward avoiding / deescalating situations.
http://www.mass.gov/portal/index.js...ssGov=brandishing&collectorName=LEGxLAWSxMGLx
Apparently you can't be charged for that in Mass. Perhaps a better question would be "What can I be charged for if I did XYZ?"
Yes, you're right, "brandishing" isn't a crime in MA. The question really was whether revealing the presence of your concealed firearm can be considered assault. As Baystatesuks has rightly pointed out, it really all depends upon the individual situation. The thread seems to have migrated now to a related question, which is whether revealing your firearm is a good way to handle the unfolding of a potentially hostile encounter.
How is that 'nonsense' hammer and nail syndrome? You've basically stated the same thing that I've stated twice now in the thread. Reread what I wrote about having some means of assertive defense. Defense doesnt always mean you have to reach for the firearm, the firearm is the last resort -but you need to know the ladder or several means of de-escalating the situation via body language, spoken language, and what ever other means you have at your disposal. If the altercation is going to become physical you need to be prepared for it.
OK, found the article. It was printed in the GOAL Message, Feb. 2000, Self Defense and the Law, by attorney Carl Lanzilli. I'll just post an excerpt (spelling errors are mine):
