Question for NRA instructors about the "W" word

[CaptDan3]

I never use the word weapon. I use pistol, handgun, rifle, shotgun, and correct students that use the w word. Same as correcting clip for magazine.

 

[travis]

I never use the word weapon. I use pistol, handgun, rifle, shotgun, and correct students that use the w word. Same as correcting clip for magazine.

Not correct, a clip and a magazine are two different things. The analogy would have to be weapon vs ammo loading device.

A firearm is a weapon.

A Rifle, handgun or shotgun are specific weapon's..

Feel free to look up the definition.

 

[crazymjb]

So the sig I'm carrying right now which is fully intended to stop someone with physical force if neccessary is not a weapon? The tools people want to learn how to use for the purposes of self defense are not intended to be weapons? We in the military teach and learn "weapon" because we are realistic in the design and intentions of the tools we use. I do the same when students ask me what they should use for self defense. You defend your life with a weapon. Get over it. I wont put a dollar in a jar for calling something what it is.

The NRA was dead wrong here.

Mike



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[dragonballzz]

To me, a weapon is something that has been used to damage somebody.

I threw a wrench at my coworker... a weapon.

My pistol has never hurt anybody... not a weapon.

If I have to defend my life by harming the bad guy with an item, that item is now a weapon.

 

[crazymjb]

Your pistol which is intended to be used against a threatening person is in fact a weapon. Sorry.

Mike

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[M1911]

Your pistol which is intended to be used against a threatening person is in fact a weapon. Sorry.

My Ruger MK II is a pretty fine handgun. Not a very good weapon. My Ruger 10/22 is a pretty fine rifle. Not a very good weapon. I'm the weapon, not an inanimate object in my hands.

 

[inerlogic]

former military..... "Weapon" is not a dirty word... it's calling a spade a spade....
'course, you can't call spades, "spades" these days, it's not PC.....
f*** PC


Webster.com
Weapon
1: something (as a club, knife, or gun) used to injure, defeat, or destroy
2: a means of contending against another

Google
weapon
1: A thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage.
2: A means of gaining an advantage or defending oneself in a conflict or contest: "resignation threats are a weapon in his armory"

 

[crazymjb]

My Ruger MK II is a pretty fine handgun. Not a very good weapon. My Ruger 10/22 is a pretty fine rifle. Not a very good weapon. I'm the weapon, not an inanimate object in my hands.

Re-read my post. A firearm intended to be used for defense or offense is a weapon. If you carry a gun with the intention of using it to stop a threat or in any way engage a living subject its a weapon. If you own a gun designed for ultimate use against personell it is still a weapon. My garand is a weapon even though I never intend to use it as such. A ratchet wrench is still designed to manipulate nuts and bolts even if you use it to bash things loose.

Mike

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[M1911]

Re-read my post. A firearm intended to be used for defense or offense is a weapon. If you carry a gun with the intention of using it to stop a threat or in any way engage a living subject its a weapon. If you own a gun designed for ultimate use against personell it is still a weapon. My garand is a weapon even though I never intend to use it as such. A ratchet wrench is still designed to manipulate nuts and bolts even if you use it to bash things loose.

NRA Basic Pistol does not teach anything about defensive shooting. It doesn't teach anything about concealed carry. It is simply about how pistol safety and the basics of pistol marksmanship. Many of the guns used in NRA Basic Pistol aren't well suited to defensive use and the rest typically aren't well suited to concealed carry. If you teach NRA Basic Pistol, then you know this.

Anything can be used as a weapon -- a 2x4, your shod foot, a book, a purse, etc. There is rarely a need in an NRA Basic Pistol class to use the word "weapon". The word weapon causes an emotional response in many students who are already nervous and scared. There is no need to scare them further.

 

[crazymjb]

I'm yet to have one person take NRA BP with zero inrerest or question/concern with regard to using a firearm for defense. I cover what the NRA wants me to and a good deal more with regard to laws and self defense and concealed carry. Those guns are weapons. Period. Its irresponsible in my eyes to pretend they are not. That is evidenced by people here who are insistent the guns they carry are not weapons. That is false.

Eta: they should be aware of a guns design and capability.

Mike

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[M1911]

I'm yet to have one person take NRA BP with zero inrerest or question/concern with regard to using a firearm for defense.

I have.

I cover what the NRA wants me to and a good deal more with regard to laws and self defense and concealed carry.

So have I.

Those guns are weapons. Period. Its irresponsible in my eyes to pretend they are not.

Irresponsible? Baloney.

First, no one is pretending that they can't be used as weapons. Second, it is completely obvious to every student that any gun can be used as a weapon. They can also be used for putting holes in paper. Calling them a "handgun" in no way diminishes the danger they can pose to the student or to a perpetrator. Using the term "handgun" rather than "weapon" is in no way irresponsible.

Eta: they should be aware of a guns design and capability.

More baloney. Students know damn well that a gun can kill. You can describe which handguns are more (or less) suitable for home defense or concealed carry by calling them "handguns" instead of "weapons" -- I've done it many times and it in know way diminishes what the student learns.

I think some people just want to call them "weapons" because they think it makes them sound like more of a tough guy.

 

[crazymjb]

No I call them weapons because thats what some/many are, it has nothing to do with being a tough guy. I dont exclusively refer to all guns as weapons, but I don't dodge the term like the NRA would like me to. Most of the class I use the term firearm, rifle, etc. I DO use the term weapon as well with regard to anything being used for defense. In my experience calling a gun a weapon does not negatively effect the students ability to learn, I think THAT is baloney, and I'd question the maturity of someone no longer able to focus during a firearm class after being told some are intended as weapons.

Mike

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[jasons]

I dont exclusively refer to all guns as weapons, but I don't dodge the term like the NRA would like me to.

This is my position as well. If any word, in context, fits then I use it. I'm not afraid of language, and not beholden to the NRA's prescribed use of it. If they don't like it, they can have my instructor card back. (Something tells me they'd rather have the money.)

I understand what the NRA is trying to do, but it's silly and short-sighted. Our right to keep and carry weapons for defense is a wonderful thing. Downplaying that screams of Fuddery.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Just say "W-word" instead, so nobody gets offended.

 

[jasons]

Just say "W-word" instead, so nobody gets offended.

Watchu call me?

 

[n1zfg]

Call me a fudd if you like, but I'm actually more inclined (and do) call them my "toys".

I live with the belief that everything I say (write, or post) can and will be edited
remixed and used against me. I'd rather have my toys them naturally associated with more
recreational functions they serve.

I also live in an environment where a shod foot can earn the title "Dangerous weapon"
When a thing, and I mean anything, gets used in a manner with the intent of inflicting
damage or harm, it becomes a weapon. Making the word weapon synonymous with firearm
pigeonholes it and feeds the propaganda machine for those who want to push the agenda
that they are evil devices that should have their access restricted.

Drilling out the habit of using the "W" word is meant to prevent those "foot in mouth"
types of issues, especially when debating with professional word twisters like attorneys
and politicians.

In the big "W" debate, I will concede that they are, at worst, tools invented for the
purpose of projecting deadly force, and have since grown to fulfill a wider sporting role.
I'll cite how the traditional track & field sports come directly from military tasks, especially
events like the javelin throw. I will also argue, that from an engineering standpoint, they
make remarkably impractical and inefficient killing machines, but that is a topic for
another thread.

In short, they are not necessarily weapons. And unless teaching a defensive use
class, calling them weapons does them a disservice.

They are more than that.

 

[jasons]

In short, they are not necessarily weapons.

But when they are, is it OK to refer to them as such? My position is that it is. The NRA's dogma says that it isn't. I'll go with logic over dogma any day.

 

[MisterHappy]

This has gone as all the similar threads have gone - the Weaponizers taking their side the No-W-Worders theirs.

My position is that if you teach the NRA BP / HFS course, you should use the "approved" terminology. How many threads on here are about how so-and-so did not cover the [insert subject here]?

The State, it its wisdom has a list of Party-Approved Courses, so that there is some level of consistency when new gun person A and new gun person B take courses from different sources.

Jasons: If you belong to a Club with a range rule that you dislike, because from your point of view it's illogical, will you do what you want anyway?

I'm not saying that the NRA is Infallible - Heston was Moses, not the Pope, after all - but if it's their course, you should follow their syllabus. Or dogma if you prefer.

 

[jasons]

Jasons: If you belong to a Club with a range rule that you dislike, because from your point of view it's illogical, will you do what you want anyway?

I don't belong to clubs that are in the habit of implementing arbitrary and capricious rules, so we'll never know.

I'm not saying that the NRA is Infallible - Heston was Moses, not the Pope, after all - but if it's their course, you should follow their syllabus. Or dogma if you prefer.

I do follow their training syllabi, which are not at all the same as their dogma.

 

[crazymjb]

Our right to own firearms is important because of their use as weapons. Period. Its not a right so I can target shoot. Therefore, I'm not going to bullshit people and say my guns I own for the purpose of lawful self defense are not weapons, because that is exactly what they are.

I feel I do a service to the community by teaching the basic pistol course along with answering questions and inserting my own additions. I still call the weapons weapons, and Its absurd not to.

To the point that guns make poor killing machines... none of us are calling them that, we are calling guns that are designed for or are used for defense or offense weapons. You are simply wrong if you think a gun designed for and marketed to the public, military, or law enforcement as a tool to physically stop a human is not a weapon. By that logic there is no such thing as a weapon if it is not being dorectly used to harm a human at any given moment.

Mike

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[n1zfg]

But when they are, is it OK to refer to them as such?

Sure, so long as it is clear that the target piece placed in front of some student doing the gallery match for the first time is about as much of a weapon as a 10" chef's knife.

Remember, especially in the case of newbies, we are encouraging solid beneficial habits. We live in a time where we have professional, talented word twisters looking to deprive us the tools we use for both protection and recreation. Getting us sufficiently riled or bamboozled to say something stupid is a tactic they will employ without hesitation. When our minds get overwhelmed with thoughts that may confuse or infuriate, we tend to fall back onto habits. Ingraining the habit of keeping the firearm non-synonymous with the term "weapon" is when under stress is what this is all about. Otherwise you risk having a case of "Open Mouth, Insert foot"

 

[jasons]

Sure

Then you, like me, disagree with NRA dogma. Better turn in your instructor card.

 

[n1zfg]

Then you, like me, disagree with NRA dogma. Better turn in your instructor card.

And this is why I always say:

Anything you say can and will be edited, remixed, and used against you.

Habits go a long way folks.
Drilling the habit of not using the "W" word protects your students from this type of linguistic gerrymandering.

 

[jasons]

And this is why I always say:

Anything you say can and will be edited, remixed, and used against you.

Habits go a long way folks.
Drilling the habit of not using the "W" word protects your students from this type of linguistic gerrymandering.

You answered the question in the affirmative, and that's inconsistent with NRA dogma. There is no "wiggle room," even when the full explanation, in a context like the one you elaborated above, makes perfect sense. Their position is as absolute as it is ridiculous.

Do not use the term "weapon" in this course. "Weapon" has a negative connotation.

See why I take issue with letting people limit the means by which I express myself?

 

[crazymjb]

Its borderline incorrect and willfully misleading to not use the term weapon when referring to many types of firearms.

You can believe what youd like but the NRA is undoubtedly wrong here.

Mike

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[travis]

Call me a fudd if you like, but I'm actually more inclined (and do) call them my "toys".

I do this as well. This does not however change the fact that this "toy" is also a weapon.

 

[noddaduma]

If you've grown up or were trained to think of the primary purpose of a firearm is to kill a man, then I could see you wanting to call it a weapon. That's fine I suppose.


If you grew up using a firearm to put food on the table because your family was dirt poor, then you'd probably call it a firearm or rifle. Every damned fool understands a rifle can kill a man, doesn't mean it's intended to be used for that.

Nothing wrong with either label. Nothing wrong with sharing an opinion, but trying to shove an opinion down someone else's throat is just idiotic. Reminds me of Al Gore in his Presidential debate. .

 

[travis]

If you've grown up or were trained to think of the primary purpose of a firearm is to kill a man, then I could see you wanting to call it a weapon. That's fine I suppose.


If you grew up using a firearm to put food on the table because your family was dirt poor, then you'd probably call it a firearm or rifle.

Ok you have to splain this to me further. A weapon is used to kill people but the same thing used to kill a animal is not?

 

[Rob Boudrie]

Every side has its own newspeak.

 

[crazymjb]

From google, I think we can agree this is a good common definition for a weapon: A thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage

Any firearm used for self defense or offense, or intended for that use. Any firearms designed for for that purpose. If you are going to argue semantics, you are wrong as per common American standards for language.

As to whether or not it is beneficial to use that term in a class, that is a SEPARATE debate from what a weapon actually is. As I have outlined, I think it is a good idea to be honest. I think the NRA's mantra is stupid, and does us more harm than good. My reasoning for this is simple. Try the "it's not a weapon" argument to ANYBODY who asks why you carry a gun and you'll just look like a moron to them. Furthermore, 2A is ALL ABOUT GUNS AS WEAPONS, those are the rights we want to preserve.

I often use "weapon" when teaching people to respect guns. This thing was designed with the express purpose of being able to cause grievous bodily harm to someone trying to do you harm... be mindful of where you are pointing it.

Mike