Question for NES roofers

daveyburt

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I had a roof re-shingled with asphalt. The installer didn't leave any overhang on the starter row. Water gets behind the gutters.

Backstory; The contractor was hired by by my now deceased grandmother but, the house has been in my name for over a decade (life estate).
The guy came highly recommended.

I contacted the roofer who came to look and said "well, that's not my gutter system so, not my problem".
I tried to be nice.
:)
As the gutters were there, you'd think he perform the installation of shingles to properly drain into the gutters.
I'm not a pro roofer but, on the work I've done, I always double up and overhang the starter row. He claims 'we don't do that anymore'.

So, question:
Is what he says true?
Is there any part of building code, or manufacturers installation instructions which state minimum overhang of the starter row?
I've searched for a while but can't find the proper docs.

Turns out the roofer has MANY customer issues. ...and the dude showed up reeking of weed.

As he screwed up the starter row, I believe the entire roof needs redone.

Did he mis-install?

thx!
 

Uzi2

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The roofer is a fvcking moron.......you ALWAYS overhang the gutters.....always always always. It makes absolutely no sense to do anything else, and anything else is defective installation workmanship.

It might not look right but you could lift the second course and nail in a drip edge.
 
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grey

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Gutter flashing. Technically not the roofers fault. You dont need to redo the roof. Theres a couple types of this flashing and most gutter supply companies carry it in different colors

Trying to remember here but i think 3/8" is the specified overhang. A little more never hurts
 

Spanz

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Gutter flashing. Technically not the roofers fault. You dont need to redo the roof. Theres a couple types of this flashing and most gutter supply companies carry it in different colors

Trying to remember here but i think 3/8" is the specified overhang. A little more never hurts
I second a drip edge. Had gutters put on snd the made sure the drip edge worked with the gutter
 

headednorth

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Havent done roofing in 20 years, but we used to install drip edge, which creates it's own overhang, and then overhang that by a quarter to three eights with the starter strip. Never bothered to measure but when it's all said and done you prob have an inch of overhang away from the fascia.

On my own house I installed flashing like in the diagram above but I wouldn't expect that to be part of the roof job.
 
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I hate this f***ing state.
Prime example of a bang, poop, chuck opportunity if there was ever one.

Even if it isn't "his" problem I can't see why(aside from laziness) a roofer wouldn't add an extra bit of money to the quote just to include the flashing and avoid this issue altogether, as well as the bad PR that's soon to follow.
 

Uzi2

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I let my starters and gable shingles overhang 1/2".
As for gutters, I hate them. RIP the gutters off bring them to the scrap metal yard.
Lots of places would have a swimming pool in the basement without gutters because of their shoddy foundation. Gutters serve a purpose.
 

Spanz

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Prime example of a bang, poop, chuck opportunity if there was ever one.

Even if it isn't "his" problem I can't see why(aside from laziness) a roofer wouldn't add an extra bit of money to the quote just to include the flashing and avoid this issue altogether, as well as the bad PR that's soon to follow.
Uh, because the roofer was a moron?

Lots of morons out there!
Lots!
 

Spanz

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A hundred year old house with fieldstone foundation and no gutters is a nightmare waiting to happen
True dat.
Just renovated an antique house. Despite regrading, new basement slab with french drains gravity drained far away, two sump pumps....still had basement leaks.

Added gutters and that got the leaks down yo three small ones. Marine epoxy (the kind that sticks and cures when damp) was the finishing touch
 

headednorth

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Certainteed says allow 1/2" overhang if dripedge is used, 3/4" if not.

Eta- also as far as how your roofer smells, you have 3 choices. Weed, booze or both. Seems like just the way it is.
 
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Editor

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Lots of places would have a swimming pool in the basement without gutters because of their shoddy foundation. Gutters serve a purpose.
With proper site prep and grading, gutters are unnecessary and likely cause more harm than good. With a correctly graded and prepared site and roof overhang, water from the roof cannot get into the basement.
 

Mark from MA

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Just fix the grade near your foundation. Gutters cause more harm then good.
Some like them, some don't. I like them, I maintain them regularly. I'm not sure what harm comes from a maintained gutter. I don't get ice dams, because my roof is properly vented, and ceilings insulated. I didn't have gutters for about 8 years, and I would rather have them all day long. The rainwater now definately gets piped WAY away from my foundation. I dug trenches installed pipe, and piped out to daylight about 30 feet away from the foundation under my yard. That's gotta be better than a waterfall off your roof next to your foundation.

I had no gutters before and good grading near my foundation. But slashup from rain water hitting decks or steps near sliding glass doors, and splashup from the earth can cause rotted sills, rotted door corners, and just generally dirty constantly wet lower siding.

When I replaced my sliders all had rot in the corners, yes they weren't flashed the way I did it, but definately the falling water splashing up and them constantly being wet did not help matters at all. Now they stay dry for the most part, and that has to be better than getting soaked every other day.

Most people that don't like gutters are lazy and don't maintain them and let them clog, which, in that case, your better without them.
 

Uzi2

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With proper site prep and grading, gutters are unnecessary and likely cause more harm than good. With a correctly graded and prepared site and roof overhang, water from the roof cannot get into the basement.
[bs][bs][bs2][bs2]

I've pumped out hundreds of basements in my life, from three inches to seven feet of water. When you allow water to drop directly against a basement wall, whether field stone or poured concrete, it follows down the wall and will find it's way into the house ( path of least resistance). If there is a pin hole in the tar on the outside of a poured foundation water will find it.
If the foundation is a hand dug hole from a hundred years ago with two foot field stone boulders.....you can grade all you want.....without gutters to divert the Niagra Falls coming from the roof....you'll be swimming in the basement.

Regrading an entire lot is not always possible and it's expensive.......Far more expensive than properly installed gutters that will pipe away the roof runoff.

The splash up is also problematic, it causes sill damage and the perimeter of the foundation stays wet ALL the time....it never dries out.
 

headednorth

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I was told by the old timers that a lot of the fieldstone foundations from 100+ years ago were literally just stones piled on top of each other. They mortared in between the stones above grade to stop drafts and rodents but below grade theyre just a pile of stones. Easiest and most economical way to deal with that lack of water barrier is to collect the water and get it away from the house via gutters and extended downspouts. Depending on the size of your house, its like an hour or two a year to keep them clear.
 

Uzi2

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I was told by the old timers that a lot of the fieldstone foundations from 100+ years ago were literally just stones piled on top of each other. They mortared in between the stones above grade to stop drafts and rodents but below grade theyre just a pile of stones. Easiest and most economical way to deal with that lack of water barrier is to collect the water and get it away from the house via gutters and extended downspouts. Depending on the size of your house, its like an hour or two a year to keep them clear.
That's true in a lot of cases about the stone foundations. There's also still houses in some pretty wealthy towns in all parts of the country with dirt floors in the basements.
 

daveyburt

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Certainteed says allow 1/2" overhang if dripedge is used, 3/4" if not.

Eta- also as far as how your roofer smells, you have 3 choices. Weed, booze or both. Seems like just the way it is.
When he's showing back up to the client cuz they have water problems after his wonder roof - you should NOT smell like weed!
-don't think I'm being a dick here.
lol

@grey - I made some gutter flashing out of roll flashing. made a jig, slapped a diamond blade in the table saw, and rolled the roll, raising the blade, ripping 2" strips. (very noisy BTW)
was a PITA to install - cursing Ricky the Roofer the whole time....
I didn't see such a product as you note above. All I saw was that 3" crap @ the depot which would have made leaf cleaning a real snatch-basket.
My ripped roll flashing is starting to wave. It needs redone.

-Others: thank you - haven't read thru it all yet but headednorth's post made me laugh

-d
 

Artie

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I am the son of a roofer and had been roofing till I decided I didn't want to be a roofer and joined the Navy. So, I am not a roofer but...
30 years ago, on new consteuction, we ran a starter course that overhang 1/2" over the drip edge. 8 years ago, when I stripped and roofed my current house, gutters were in place, and he still overhangs the starter strips 1/2". If you look at any directions on the shingles, most state 1/4" to 3/4" overhang. I hope you can get this resolved. Good luck.
 

headednorth

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When he's showing back up to the client cuz they have water problems after his wonder roof - you should NOT smell like weed!
-don't think I'm being a dick here.
lol
Agreed, but dont hold your breath waiting for a Quaker roofer to come along. Same with movers and paving companies in my experience. Not saying its right, but thats how it is. Hearing about a roofer showing up smelling like weed didnt surprise me tbh.
 

daveyburt

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I am the son of a roofer and had been roofing till I decided I didn't want to be a roofer and joined the Navy. So, I am not a roofer but...
30 years ago, on new consteuction, we ran a starter course that overhang 1/2" over the drip edge. 8 years ago, when I stripped and roofed my current house, gutters were in place, and he still overhangs the starter strips 1/2". If you look at any directions on the shingles, most state 1/4" to 3/4" overhang. I hope you can get this resolved. Good luck.

good - so i'm not crazy.

Real funny tidbit.
When i mentioned he didn't overhang to Grams - she said, "you're supposed to overhang 1/4".
My gramps and his brothers built the place and she helped.
In my conversations with Ricky the Roofer, I told him that flat out and said - "See, my grandmother really does know how to roof better then you."
:)
 

grey

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When he's showing back up to the client cuz they have water problems after his wonder roof - you should NOT smell like weed!
-don't think I'm being a dick here.
lol

@grey - I made some gutter flashing out of roll flashing. made a jig, slapped a diamond blade in the table saw, and rolled the roll, raising the blade, ripping 2" strips. (very noisy BTW)
was a PITA to install - cursing Ricky the Roofer the whole time....
I didn't see such a product as you note above. All I saw was that 3" crap @ the depot which would have made leaf cleaning a real snatch-basket.
My ripped roll flashing is starting to wave. It needs redone.

-Others: thank you - haven't read thru it all yet but headednorth's post made me laugh

-d
That sounds like the hard way. In a pinch the roll flashing can be cut with snips. Best of situations- call a gutter supply company. I use Eagle Seamless out of Woburn and they carry 3 ft sections. Easy to snip. If you're careful you.can just bend the drip edge out. Works at least 1/2 of the time, especially with fir gutters
 

daveyburt

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^ with over 200' needed, snips would have been pretty tough as well @ a couple inches per snip....but, yea, your method seems to be the simplest solution.

thx
 
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