Question for any lawyers about the wording or meaning of a law?

[mac1911]

OK so I tried to order somethings from Midway, slipped my mind that they dont ship ammo to mass or bullets ect ect. I then recieved a email asking why I did not complete my order. You dont ship to mass. I asked them to please direct me to the laws that prohibit them from doing so. Below is what they sent. NOW the question is......It says you need to be duly licensed "in" the commonwealth to sell ammo. Also in the last paragraph it states " any person selling ammo "within" the commonwealth" with out license punished with a fine. OK so what does "in" and "within" mean ? TITLE XX. PUBLIC SAFETY AND GOOD ORDER


CHAPTER 140. LICENSES


EMPLOYMENT AGENCIES


SALE OF FIREARMS


Chapter 140: Section 122B. Sale of ammunition; license; fees; rules and regulations; refusal, suspension or revocation of license; judicial review; penalties


Section 122B. No person shall sell ammunition in the commonwealth unless duly licensed. The chief of police or the board or officer having control of the police in a city or town, or persons authorized by them, may, after an investigation into the criminal history of the applicant to determine eligibility to be licensed under this section, grant a license to any person, except an alien, a minor, a person who has been adjudicated a youthful offender, as defined in section fifty-two of chapter one hundred and nineteen, including those who have not received an adult sentence or a person who has been convicted of a felony in any state or federal jurisdiction, or of the unlawful use, possession or sale of narcotic or harmful drugs, to sell ammunition. Every license shall specify the street and number, if any, of the building where the business is to be carried on. The licensing authority to whom such application is made shall cause one copy of the application to be forwarded to the executive director of the criminal history systems board, who shall within a reasonable time thereafter advise such authority in writing of any criminal record disqualifying the applicant. The fee for an application for a license to sell ammunition shall be $100, which shall be payable to the licensing authority and shall not be prorated or refunded in case of revocation or denial. The licensing authority shall retain $25 of the fee; $50 of the fee shall be deposited into the general fund of the commonwealth; and $25 of the fee shall be deposited in the Firearms Fingerprint Identity Verification Trust Fund. The licensing authority to whom such application is made shall cause one copy of any approved application to be forwarded to the executive director of the criminal history systems board.

Any lawfully incorporated sporting or shooting club shall, upon application, be licensed to sell or supply ammunition for regulated shooting on their premises, as for skeet, target or trap shooting; provided, however, that such club license shall, in behalf of said club, be issued to and exercised by an officer or duly authorized member of the club who himself possesses a firearm identification card or a license to carry a firearm and who would not be disqualified to receive a license to sell ammunition in his own right. The licensing authority may revoke or suspend a license to sell ammunition for violation of any provision of this chapter.

The secretary of the executive office of public safety may establish such rules and regulations as he may deem necessary to carry out the provisions of this section.

Any person refused a license under this section or once issued a license under this section has had said license suspended or revoked may obtain a judicial review of such refusal, suspension or revocation by filing within thirty days of such refusal, suspension or revocation a petition for review thereof in the district court having jurisdiction in the city or town in which the applicant filed for such license, and a justice of said court, after a hearing, may direct that a license be issued the applicant if satisfied there was no reasonable ground for refusing such license and that the applicant was not prohibited by law from holding the same.

Whoever not being licensed, as hereinbefore provided, sells ammunition within the commonwealth shall be punished by a fine of not less than five hundred nor more than one thousand dollars or by imprisonment for not less than six months nor more than two years.

The more I read these laws, the more I do not understand.

This also brings up a underlying question. The chief of police or the board or officer having control of the police in a city or town, or persons authorized by them, may, after an investigation into the criminal history of the applicant to determine eligibility to be licensed under this section, grant a license to any person, except an alien, a minor, a person who has been adjudicated a youthful offender, as defined in section fifty-two of chapter one hundred and nineteen, including those who have not received an adult sentence or a person who has been convicted of a felony in any state or federal jurisdiction, or of the unlawful use, possession or sale of narcotic or harmful drugs, to sell ammunition. Every license shall specify the street and number, if any, of the building where the business is to be carried on. The licensing authority to whom such application is made shall cause one copy of the application to be forwarded to the executive director of the criminal history systems board, who shall within a reasonable time thereafter advise such authority in writing of any criminal record disqualifying the applicant. The fee for an application for a license to sell ammunition shall

Does this mean that the local PD can grant me a ammo sales license. And if so if I have the proper storage permit from PD can engage in small arms ammo sales on a small scale say a few cases a month. I understand that I would need to file for proper sales tax and income.

 

[jdubois]

OK so what does "in" and "within" mean ?

According to the AG, it means any sales to MA residents. After a few threatening letters, most companies don't want to fight the MA AG so they give in.

Does this mean that the local PD can grant me a ammo sales license. And if so if I have the proper storage permit from PD can engage in small arms ammo sales on a small scale say a few cases a month. I understand that I would need to file for proper sales tax and income.

Yes, you would apply to your local PD if you want to obtain a license to sell ammunition in MA. I'd be surprised, however, if any town would give one anybody who doesn't also have an FFL.

 

[mac1911]

OK so if I go to say kittery TP buy ammo and bring it back. AG says no no and goes after Kittery?

Ammo license, might give it a try. Good starting point for future business.

Again, so the AG can say "this is what it means" because I read it as if you are IN mass or WITHIN mass trying to sell ammo you are with in the boarder of mass. If I order something on line where is the "SALE" actually made?

 

[vellnueve]

You can buy ammo from any out of state source you want that will sell it to you.

 

[drgrant]

OK so if I go to say kittery TP buy ammo and bring it back. AG says no no and goes after Kittery?

No, they can't touch that one at all, really. No part of the transaction ever occurred in MA, nor did the seller even send anything into MA.

BTW, buying ammo in other states and bringing it back is perfectly legal, as long as you have an FID or better.

Ammo license, might give it a try. Good starting point for future business.

Again, so the AG can say "this is what it means" because I read it as if you are IN mass or WITHIN mass trying to sell ammo you are with in the boarder of mass. If I order something on line where is the "SALE" actually made?

Well, depends on the terms of the sale. If you buy ammo as "FOB" eg, Freight On Board, from the other state, that ammo sale should, by law, have only occurred in the state where it was ordered, because in theory, with FOB, control of the shipment is now directly in the hands/responsibility of the buyer, so the buyer is "importing" the ammo, not the original seller.

Problem is the MA AG doesn't give a rats ass about accepted shipping conventions and interstate commerce laws in the US- and they go out and send nasty letters to companies anyways, with the fun consent decree enemas- and the crappy companies sign them rather than pay for a lawyer to mop up the mess or to go do battle. It's cheaper for many to just capitulate to the AG than it is to fight them, even if the online ammo vendors are clearly in the right.


-Mike

 

[mac1911]

crazy

 

[appraiser]

Mac just find a friend in NH you can ship it to, or rent a non USPS mailbox in Salem NH at the UPS store and ship it there.

 

[jdubois]

OK so if I go to say kittery TP buy ammo and bring it back. AG says no no and goes after Kittery?

I have no doubt the AG would if she thought she could get away with it. But a face to face sale in another state would be even too ludicrous for the AG to fight. Though they could try and amend § 122B to require a license to sell in order to import ammunition. Course I should just shut up now...

Ammo license, might give it a try. Good starting point for future business.

Typically only a gun shop will get a license to sell, but it can be done without a retail business location. Qmmo has done it, for one, and sells his reloads completely on the legal up and up. From talking to him though, it was far from an easy process. Note, though, that you cannot effectively run a mail order ammo business even within MA, even with a license to sell, because all sales must be in person (per § 123). Though munitionstogo.com boldly claims to be doing just that.

 

[KMaurer]

There are actually quite a few things Midway won't ship to Massachusetts that aren't arguably covered by any Massachusetts law, merely their confusion and caution. OTOH, they're perfectly willing to ship them to an address in a free state, even when you order them on a credit card with a Massachusetts billing address. They're on-line system might balk, but their phone order people will do it.

Ken

 

[appraiser]

Mac I am in Southern NH not far from 93, if you want to send it here PM me, and that goes for the rest of you people.

Just don't have your friends in the southwest send fed-ex packages with green herbal substances here TYVM

 

[M1911]

There are actually quite a few things Midway won't ship to Massachusetts that aren't arguably covered by any Massachusetts law, merely their confusion and caution. OTOH, they're perfectly willing to ship them to an address in a free state, even when you order them on a credit card with a Massachusetts billing address. They're on-line system might balk, but their phone order people will do it.

Odd. They wouldn't do that for me the last time I tried, but that was a few years ago.

 

[jeffishness]

There are actually quite a few things Midway won't ship to Massachusetts that aren't arguably covered by any Massachusetts law, merely their confusion and caution. OTOH, they're perfectly willing to ship them to an address in a free state, even when you order them on a credit card with a Massachusetts billing address. They're on-line system might balk, but their phone order people will do it.

Ken

Odd. They wouldn't do that for me the last time I tried, but that was a few years ago.

I've recently placed two orders online with them that have billed to MA but shipped to RI without a problem at all. No errors from the page and it shipped out right away.

 

[qmmo]

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