Question about "safeties"

[Lilorfnannie]

Hi folks- I'm trying to understand some things. I'm new to firearms in general.

I wanted to know about the merits of external safeties vs. internal safeties, some have a little lever some have a trigger safety- etc. This is regarding a self-defense weapon for myself. I don't know what I'll get yet (not at that stage quite yet.) I was reading that other thread about the fellow who got a Glock as his first gun with great interest . DH is quite insistent my handgun should have an external safety but I don't think he or I really understand the whole question. I thought all guns have safeties? Is one type "safer" for a newbie, or something?

Anyway I'm sure the subject has been covered before, could you folks point it out for me please, or show me an article to read? Thank you!

 

[vellnueve]

Quite frankly, I don't believe in safeties. No matter what you do, you should never touch the trigger unless you intend to pull it. A safety to me is just a feel-good piece of equipment that, like any other device, can fail. It would be better, especially as a new shooter, to focus on training yourself to treat every gun as if it is loaded and not put any faith in a little switch that may or may not function.

 

[Underwhere]

Hi folks- I'm trying to understand some things. I'm new to firearms in general.

I wanted to know about the merits of external safeties vs. internal safeties, some have a little lever some have a trigger safety- etc. This is regarding a self-defense weapon for myself. I don't know what I'll get yet (not at that stage quite yet.) I was reading that other thread about the fellow who got a Glock as his first gun with great interest . DH is quite insistent my handgun should have an external safety but I don't think he or I really understand the whole question. I thought all guns have safeties? Is one type "safer" for a newbie, or something?

Anyway I'm sure the subject has been covered before, could you folks point it out for me please, or show me an article to read? Thank you!

You'll learn that it is personal preference.

I personally don't believe in handgun safeties (not my opinion when I was a new shooter but now it is).

Don't put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to shoot.

I do think that a big issue is the type of trigger.

I carry a Glock because it's double action. I would never carry a single action gun like a 1911 but again that's my personal preference.

The reasoning behind that is:
When I grip a 1911 in an action shooting type of grip (which I believe to be the most effective) my thumb naturally lands on the thumb safety, disengaging it and effectively rendering it useless every time I draw the pistol. I'm left with a single action trigger which I consider pretty dangerous for carry.

On a glock I don't have an external safety. However, I'm always left with a double action trigger.

Your other option is double action single action like a SIG. I just don't like them because you won't have a consistent trigger pull and that's difficult for me to get used to.
Others will disagree so I'll reiterate that it's a matter of preference.

 

[fubar]

New shooters usually overlook DA revolvers. Add up all our hot little wonder-nines and pocket auto's and it still might not equal the number of "snub nosed" J frame 38/357's that we really carry.

Mine has:

A trigger
A cylinder release.

Pretty simple , really. .... of course I carry a 5in. 1911 w/ thumb & backstrap safeties. I got it from Jack Bauer when we trained in ninja school together. Or maybe it is a stock Para I shoot every weekend , waiting for the catastrophic failure I keep hearing about from Colt owners ...

All firearms are as safe/unsafe as YOU make them. Learn yours well and be careful always.

 

[wolf223]

dont need no stinking safety.

i do not want anything to think about aside from BANG.

i also carry a glock.

 

[EddieCoyle]

The most important safety is the one between your ears.

The safety on a gun is a mechanical device designed to minimize the chances of an unintended discharge. Notice the word is "minimize" and not "eliminate". Safeties can fail and either leave the pistol ready to fire when you think it isn't, or unable to fire at all.

The only handgun that "needs" a safety is a single-action auto like a 1911 - because they have a very short, light trigger pull. The best way to carry such a pistol so that it is ready to use in an emergency is "cocked and locked". For DA revolvers and autos (like the Glock) the chances of an unintended discharge are minimized by the long trigger pull. That (and your training and handling habits) are your "safety".

The only firearms that really need mechanical safeties are shotguns and rifles for hunting. When hunting, you're going to be walking or standing around with a loaded gun that you need to be able to bring to bear quickly, but not when your life depends on it.

 

[RKG]

You might want to review a prior thread: http://northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=51706&highlight=safeties

In general, a manual safety in an autoloading pistol is designed to deal with two sets of failure modes.

The first involves an unintended press of the trigger, either from a finger or some external mechanism (the one typically cited is a twig catching the trigger while walking in the woods). The second involves modes that do not involve a press of the trigger, such as an inertia fire on a Gov't Model.

The extent to which a manual safety reduces the probability of fire in a given scenario varies widely with the design of the pistol.

Now, one would like to say that, even if the marginal reduction in that probability is small in some cases, so long as it is always positive, why not have and use a safety? The answer is that, from both mechanical and psychological perspectives, a manual safety can actually increase the probability of an unintended discharge, at least in some cases.

After an awful lot of years shooting and carrying a wide variety of firearms, my general rules are as follows:

1) Unless required by range or match rules, I stay away from using a manual safety, even if the firearm has one.

2) The big exception is Gov't Model (a/k/a "1911") design pistols. I also tend to use the manual safety in AR-type rifles and carbines, at least when carried cocked & locked, and at least where I have verified that the fire control mechanism in a particular weapon is properly assembled and functioning.

3) A manual safety provides no advantage with two common types of carry pistols: Smith & Wesson double action revolvers and SIG double action pistols (neither of which has one).

As noted, some details are provided in the cited prior thread.

 

[Mike-Mike]

The safeties that we have (in order of importance).

1. The one between our ears---including trigger discipline
2. A good holster that completely covers the trigger guard---Modern firearms don't go off until you tell them to.
3. External and internal safeties that are firearm specific.

Whatever you choose, get very familiar with the controls on your firearm. Guns with safeties are no more safe than guns without safeties, they just operate differently. Not only should you know which one that you want, you should know why.

I find that many of my pistol students come to my classes wanting 1911's until I explain to them how they work. I also show them that you have to disengage the manual safety and usually the grip safety to unload it. There is nothing unsafe about carrying a 1911 in condition 1 (cocked and locked) if the individual is very familiar with the controls and operation.

I carry:
j frame
m&p40c
series 70 1911

just not always at the same time..

 

[M1911]

I carry a Glock because it's double action. I would never carry a single action gun like a 1911 but again that's my personal preference.

The reasoning behind that is:
When I grip a 1911 in an action shooting type of grip (which I believe to be the most effective) my thumb naturally lands on the thumb safety, disengaging it and effectively rendering it useless every time I draw the pistol. I'm left with a single action trigger which I consider pretty dangerous for carry.

On a glock I don't have an external safety. However, I'm always left with a double action trigger.

The Glock has a 5-6 lb, short travel trigger. A typical 1911 from the factory has a 5-6 lb, short travel trigger. Why some folks think the Glock is uber-safe but a 1911 is uber-dangerous is completely beyond me. With the safety off on a 1911, if you pull the trigger it will go bang. With a Glock, if you pull the trigger it will go bang.

(As an aside, it isn't strictly correct to call the Glock a double action trigger. It is striker fired, or, as Glock prefers, "Safe Action" trigger.)

As for manual safeties in general I don't have an issue with them one way or the other. I'm comfortable carrying my 1911s with manual safeties. I'm also comfortable carrying my Glocks, or Kahr's, or S&W revolvers without them.

I find that DA/SA guns (e.g., Sig 229) require much more practice in order to master the transition between the long, hard DA shot and the short, easy SA follow-up shots. Learning how to manipulate a 1911 safety is far easier, IMHO, than mastering the DA/SA trigger.

Basically, though, it simply comes down to preference. You can use any action type safely. You can use any action type unsafely.

 

[Len-2A Training]

The most important safety is the one between your ears.

The safety on a gun is a mechanical device designed to minimize the chances of an unintended discharge. Notice the word is "minimize" and not "eliminate". Safeties can fail and either leave the pistol ready to fire when you think it isn't, or unable to fire at all.

The only handgun that "needs" a safety is a single-action auto like a 1911 - because they have a very short, light trigger pull. The best way to carry such a pistol so that it is ready to use in an emergency is "cocked and locked". For DA revolvers and autos (like the Glock) the chances of an unintended discharge are minimized by the long trigger pull. That (and your training and handling habits) are your "safety".

The only firearms that really need mechanical safeties are shotguns and rifles for hunting. When hunting, you're going to be walking or standing around with a loaded gun that you need to be able to bring to bear quickly, but not when your life depends on it.

Ding, ding! We have a winner! Thanks Jim, great explanation.

In my early days of shooting, I ccw'd an OMC (AMT) Backup .380 that had a manual safety. One day after removing mag, emptying the chamber and re-verifying, I pulled the trigger (with safety on) and it went "click"!! The gun was pointed in a safe direction, but that taught me a most valuable lesson. The safety had broken internally and thus if I hadn't obeyed ALL the gun safety rules, I might have caused a problem by relying on the mechanical safety.

Over the years I've carried revolvers (no safety), 1911 (always used the safety), M&P pistols (most have no external safety), USPc (always used safety). A lot also has to do with proper holsters and ensuring that NO CLOTHING ever enters the holster area (this is what causes some Glock and other NDs) . . . and yes, I have experienced clothing getting into the holster (1911 w/safety on) while taking some defensive handgun courses (90F weather, holstering/shooting for 8 hrs/day) . . . which is probably why I've never warmed up to carrying any of my Glocks (not condemning the gun, just a personal issue here).

 

[Lilorfnannie]

Boy, that's a lot of really good info. I'm going to review all that and pass it on- thank you so much to ALL of you!!!!

 

[jobowker]

Basically, though, it simply comes down to preference. You can use any action type safely. You can use any action type unsafely.

I was all set to write some big long response, but came to the realization that the above pretty much sums it all up.

 

[mikem317]

Quite frankly, I don't believe in safeties. No matter what you do, you should never touch the trigger unless you intend to pull it. A safety to me is just a feel-good piece of equipment that, like any other device, can fail. It would be better, especially as a new shooter, to focus on training yourself to treat every gun as if it is loaded and not put any faith in a little switch that may or may not function.

+1. Well said.

 

[Lilorfnannie]

I will definitely make it a priority to drill in the Four Safety rules. Not only so I (and all members of the family) know it in the head but so that as I use the handgun it is drilled into my hands and becomes reflex. Definitely!!!

 

[Mike-Mike]

I will definitely make it a priority to drill in the Four Safety rules. Not only so I (and all members of the family) know it in the head but so that as I use the handgun it is drilled into my hands and becomes reflex. Definitely!!!

If you tell us what you are looking at in terms of make/model some of us might be able to help you better.

The problem I have with several people that buy DA/SA type of firearms is this:

they go to the range,
load there gun,
go slide forward,
shoot,
repeat.

They never ever practice that first double action shot. These are not bad guns but if you get one, practice that double action shot and don't ever carry a gun that you cannot shoot well on the first shot.

Also, in a self defense situation, how long does it take between shot #1 and Shot #2?

Your brain has to adjust fairly quickly between 2 very different trigger pulls.

Just make sure you practice this if you get a DA/SA.

 

[M1911]

They never ever practice that first double action shot. These are not bad guns but if you get one, practice that double action shot and don't ever carry a gun that you cannot shoot well on the first shot.

Agreed. If you go the DA/SA route, you have to practice firing your first shot DA and follow up shot(s) SA.

Train the way you fight, fight the way you train.

 

[Underwhere]

The Glock has a 5-6 lb, short travel trigger. A typical 1911 from the factory has a 5-6 lb, short travel trigger. Why some folks think the Glock is uber-safe but a 1911 is uber-dangerous is completely beyond me. With the safety off on a 1911, if you pull the trigger it will go bang. With a Glock, if you pull the trigger it will go bang.

(As an aside, it isn't strictly correct to call the Glock a double action trigger. It is striker fired, or, as Glock prefers, "Safe Action" trigger.)

The glock trigger is very different than a 1911 trigger. Even with the same trigger weight the difference is very noticeable and it's my opinion that someone would have a higher chance of AD with the 1911 style. Especially if they are like me and naturally grip the 1911 with the thumb safety disengaged 100% of the time.

I don't think it's "uber-dangerous" but there is a significant difference to me. I shoot 1911's all the time without fearing for my life. However, I prefer to carry a glock. I've carried 1911's as well but in addition to trigger style, the simple weight of a 1911 steers me away from them.

Your brain has to adjust fairly quickly between 2 very different trigger pulls.

My brain does not enjoy making adjustments. I try not to overwork it.

 

[Big_Red]

When I was new to firearms the thought of carrying a 1911 locked and cocked scared me to death. Then eventually I got a S&W 1911 PD but still could not carry it L&K so I didn't carry it. I took some time to understand how this gun operates (internally and externally) and I realized that the chance of it going BANG! on its own are rather slim. Three things have to happen in order for this gun to go off and they won't happen unless I make them happen. I now have three (3) 1911's and carry them all without so much as a hint of hesitation.

OP, come out to one of the NES member shoots. There you will be able to take a good look at various firearms. You might even be able to try them (NES members are very generous).

 

[M1911]

The glock trigger is very different than a 1911 trigger. Even with the same trigger weight the difference is very noticeable and it's my opinion that someone would have a higher chance of AD with the 1911 style. Especially if they are like me and naturally grip the 1911 with the thumb safety disengaged 100% of the time.

Sorry, but I just disagree really strongly. The difference in travel of the trigger between the two is probably 1/16" of an inch. An extra 1/16" of an inch of travel on a Glock trigger simply isn't going to save someone from having an negligent discharge. If you get startled, clench your fists, and your finger winds up on the trigger, both a Glock and a 1911 will discharge. The Glock trigger mushiness isn't going to save you from an ND either.

One of the most common ways people have an ND is by leaving their finger on the trigger when holstering. With a 1911, if you remembered to apply the safety prior to holstering then you won't have an ND even if you leave your finger on the trigger. If you leave your finger on the trigger with a Glock while reholstering, you will likely have an ND. And the difference in travel and weight won't help you in this instance. People have had NDs this way with Sigs, which have a much heavier and longer trigger pull.

Another common way people have NDs with Glocks comes when they are starting to clean them. Glock take down requires you to pull the trigger with the slide closed. Too many people fail to properly clear the chamber prior to pulling the trigger, with the expected result.

Am I saying that Glocks are unsafe? Heck no. I own 2 (used to own 3) Glocks, have carried them in the past, and would feel perfectly safe carrying them in the future. I certainly understand why some folks prefer Glocks to 1911s. Glocks are lighter, cheaper, higher capacity, have an outstanding finish, and tend to be more reliable out of the box. They've got plenty of advantages. There are plenty of valid reasons for preferring Glocks (or Sigs, or S&W, or Brand X) to 1911s. But I just don't see safety being one of them, IMNSHO.

 

[Underwhere]

Sorry, but I just disagree really strongly. The difference in travel of the trigger between the two is probably 1/16" of an inch. An extra 1/16" of an inch of travel on a Glock trigger simply isn't going to save someone from having an negligent discharge. If you get startled, clench your fists, and your finger winds up on the trigger, both a Glock and a 1911 will discharge. The Glock trigger mushiness isn't going to save you from an ND either.

One of the most common ways people have an ND is by leaving their finger on the trigger when holstering. With a 1911, if you remembered to apply the safety prior to holstering then you won't have an ND even if you leave your finger on the trigger. If you leave your finger on the trigger with a Glock while reholstering, you will likely have an ND. And the difference in travel and weight won't help you in this instance. People have had NDs this way with Sigs, which have a much heavier and longer trigger pull.

Another common way people have NDs with Glocks comes when they are starting to clean them. Glock take down requires you to pull the trigger with the slide closed. Too many people fail to properly clear the chamber prior to pulling the trigger, with the expected result.

Am I saying that Glocks are unsafe? Heck no. I own 2 (used to own 3) Glocks, have carried them in the past, and would feel perfectly safe carrying them in the future. I certainly understand why some folks prefer Glocks to 1911s. Glocks are lighter, cheaper, higher capacity, have an outstanding finish, and tend to be more reliable out of the box. They've got plenty of advantages. There are plenty of valid reasons for preferring Glocks (or Sigs, or S&W, or Brand X) to 1911s. But I just don't see safety being one of them, IMNSHO.

All valid points.

We'll just have to disagree on the trigger then. I'm not huge on my trigger terminology but I notice a significant difference when shooting my 1911's vs my glocks.

I'm in total agreement with you on the rest of this stuff.

 

[Jose]

Say no to safeties. None of my handguns require the manipulation of a safety in order to fire. I will have it no other way.

 

[Supermoto]

The reasoning behind that is:
When I grip a 1911 in an action shooting type of grip (which I believe to be the most effective) my thumb naturally lands on the thumb safety, disengaging it and effectively rendering it useless every time I draw the pistol. I'm left with a single action trigger which I consider pretty dangerous for carry.
.

You should not be disengaging the thumb safety on the draw, it should be disengage as the gun comes on target.

 

[Underwhere]

You should not be disengaging the thumb safety on the draw, it should be disengage as the gun comes on target.

True. I've never bothered to see where exactly my thumb depresses the safety but my guess is somewhere between draw and target acquisition.

This is why i personally don't carry a 1911.

 

[Negotiator]

If you tell us what you are looking at in terms of make/model some of us might be able to help you better.

The problem I have with several people that buy DA/SA type of firearms is this:

they go to the range,
load there gun,
go slide forward,
shoot,
repeat.

They never ever practice that first double action shot. These are not bad guns but if you get one, practice that double action shot and don't ever carry a gun that you cannot shoot well on the first shot.

Also, in a self defense situation, how long does it take between shot #1 and Shot #2?

Your brain has to adjust fairly quickly between 2 very different trigger pulls.

Just make sure you practice this if you get a DA/SA.

+1

I have no problem with any of my Sig's - you just have to practice over and over the first shot from DA.
Shoot : Decock: Shoot again. Over and over...

 

[Lilorfnannie]

I just read this in "The Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery (6th Ed.)" by Massad Ayoob, this is a section where he's talking about carrying on-safe vs. off-safe:

"The many 1911 fans think having to carry their gun on-safe is a tactical advantage. The author thinks they're right."

He also has three pictures of someone drawing a gun, beneath the first one (beginning the draw) it says "The draw begins. The S&W 4506 is carried on-safe in an LF1 Concealment rig..." the next picture is midway through the draw, it says "...At about the time the gun clears the body, the thumb has pushed the lever into 'fire' position..." the next picture shows the gun in fire position and it says "...Since the action was accomplished during the draw, there has been no significant time loss in getting a ready-to-fire .45 up on target. Note that the lever is in the 'fire' position with the red warning dot exposed."

He also says: "But with the S&W, the Beretta, or the modern Ruger, it's apiece of cake. Simply thrust the firing hand's thumb up, at a 45-degree angle, as fi you were trying to reach the ejection port. Unless your thumb is very short or bends outward to an unusual degree, this will pop the safety catch into the fire position.

With some holsters, the thumbstrap or strap paddle may get in the way. While it would be dangerous to off-safe a single-action auto in the holster, I'm comfortable doing that with a double-action; hell, everybody else is telling you to carry it off-safe to begin with! Videos and high-speed photos of me when I'm drawing whosed me that I disengage the safety lever at about 45 degrees of muzzle angle as I'm coming out of the holster. I win my share of matches, and have outdrawn my share of scumbags, and all I can say is, "It works for me." "

He also gave a number of examples where officers and other gun-owners were not killed when someone stole their gun and tried to kill them because the criminal tried to shoot with the safety on and it didn't go off, giving the person enough time to respond, etc.

So what he seems to be saying is that he prefers DA, with a safety lever carried on-safe- but he stresses that it's up to you, and what works for you.

(The next question I have to resolve as to first gun is revolver vs. auto- going to read more of Ayoob's book first.)

 

[Jose]

Ayoob is wrong on that subject.

The "safety" of which he speaks is nothing but a decocking lever. I, and many others, have a tremendous difficulty pushing the lever up from its decock position to its fire position during the draw.

Not only that, such a motion is completely unnecessary. The pistols he mentions as an example are designed to be perfectly safe with hammer down and the decock lever in the fire position. They have a long, heavier double action pull for the first shot (just like a revolver) and a single action trigger pull for every shot after that until the pistol is empty.

I have two double/single action handguns, a Walther P1 and a S&W 915. I never carry the P1, but I do ocassionally carry the 915. When I do, the first thing I do after loading it is thumbing the decocker down to drop the hammer then immediately flick it up to fire. Then the pistol is holstered.

For the record, my most-often carried firearms are Smith & Wesson K frame revolvers in .38 Special or .357 Magnum. I am very fast and very accurate with them. They fit my hand as if it was used to mold the grip and frame and they point exactly where I look.

As I see it, the most ergonomic handgun design of all time is Smith & Wesson's .38 Hand Ejector Model of 1899.

 

[Optimistic Paranoid]

The one thing I noticed througout this thread is that everyone keeps refering to MANUALLY MANIPULATED SAFETIES.

Of course, many of these guns have INTERNAL safeties whose purpose is to render the guns DROP SAFE.

The first centerfire revolver, the 1873 Colt "Peacemaker", could go off - even if the hammer wasn't cocked - if all six chambers were loaded and the gun landed on the hammer. Savvy gun carriers solved this problem by only loading five rounds and letting the hammer down on an empty chamber.

My double action Ruger Security Six has a transfer bar internal safety. You could beat on the hammer with a hammer, and you can't make it go off. The trigger must be pulled in order for the transfer bar to move into position to allow the hammerfall to drive the firing pin forward into the cartridge.

The grip safety was specifically added to John Browning's original design to render it drop safe. Since the Army was still thinking in terms of horse cavalry in 1911, the gun had to be drop safe even if it fell from six or seven feet in the air and landed on a cocked hammer, driving it forward. Since then, Colt added an additional internal safety to block the firing pin with the Model 80 design.

And even the Glock has safeties - internal safeties. The firing pin is positively blocked from moving forward until the trigger is pulled all the way to the rear, and the trigger safety's sole purpose is to prevent inertia from causing the trigger to pull itself if the gun fell and landed muzzle up.

And yes, the original design didn't have such a setup, and Glock's testing demonstrated that the gun could, in fact, discharge if it landed muzzle up.

Some gun's, noticably Smith & Wesson automatics, also have a magazine disconnect safety. I confess it's rationale remains a mystery to me.

As far as manually manipulated safeties go, I don't need em and don't want em and won't own a gun that needs one. In addition to wheelguns, I own Kahrs and Glocks and just acquired a DAO Beretta. Point gun, pull trigger, BANG!

Regards
John

 

[M1911]

When I took LFI-1, he said that S&W 3rd Generation guns could be carried on safe or off safe. I don't remember him advocating one or the other. If you carry a 3rd Generation S&W on safe, he suggested that you could take it off safe as you gripped the gun, with your thumb and forefinger on the way down as you gripped the gun.

Personally, I'm not a fan of guns with a safety and/or decocking lever on the slide -- it is too easy for me to hit the lever while cycling the slide. YMMV.

 

[Lilorfnannie]

Ayoob is wrong on that subject.

The "safety" of which he speaks is nothing but a decocking lever. I, and many others, have a tremendous difficulty pushing the lever up from its decock position to its fire position during the draw.

Not only that, such a motion is completely unnecessary. The pistols he mentions as an example are designed to be perfectly safe with hammer down and the decock lever in the fire position. They have a long, heavier double action pull for the first shot (just like a revolver) and a single action trigger pull for every shot after that until the pistol is empty.

I have two double/single action handguns, a Walther P1 and a S&W 915. I never carry the P1, but I do ocassionally carry the 915. When I do, the first thing I do after loading it is thumbing the decocker down to drop the hammer then immediately flick it up to fire. Then the pistol is holstered.

For the record, my most-often carried firearms are Smith & Wesson K frame revolvers in .38 Special or .357 Magnum. I am very fast and very accurate with them. They fit my hand as if it was used to mold the grip and frame and they point exactly where I look.

As I see it, the most ergonomic handgun design of all time is Smith & Wesson's .38 Hand Ejector Model of 1899.

Just for the record he does spend a little time in the book talking about the terms "safety" vs. "decocking lever." If I understand it correctly he's saying that it amounts to the same thing and is a dual-purpose lever.

 

[M1911]

Just for the record he does spend a little time in the book talking about the terms "safety" vs. "decocking lever." If I understand it correctly he's saying that it amounts to the same thing and is a dual-purpose lever.

S&W 3rd generations have a single lever that is both a safety and a decocker. The gun is designed to be carried decocked, and can be carried hammer down safety on or hammer down safety off.