Question about purchase in MA taken to Texas

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As a few of you know I have a ranch in Texas and it is bountiful in mule deer and wild pig. I have purchased a number of rifles in MA and have since taken them to Texas and left them at my ranch. They were transported by automobile (2300 mile drive.. I won't do that again anytime soon) under FOPA while legally secured in the vehicle. They are stored at my ranch in a safe that only I have the combination to (the combination is stored in a safety deposit box in a bank in Ft. Hancock and available to the executor of my estate should I die).

Now the question. Should a 209A be issued against me (think distraught girlfriend or ex-wife) the popo show up at my home demanding that I turn these rifles over, what recourse do I have? I don't have the rifles here so I can't turn them over. What will be the consequences (jail, I'm sure) and how can I prove they are in Texas and no longer in the state? What does one do in these circumstances beside end up in jail?
 

appraiser

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does not mater where they are, they are subject to the 208 or 209A order, and the PoPo could ask local authorities in Texas to go obtain and secure them once the location was disclosed to them.

Out of State does not mean out of the scope of the RO

Keep your mouth shut and lawyer up.

the problem is a RO is a civil matter so you really do not have right to counsel but still shut up/lawyer up since a violation can turn into a criminal matter quickly

I am not a lawyer, I am not giving legal advice, just an opinion
 
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does not mater where they are, they are subject to the 208 or 209A order, and the PoPo could ask local authorities in Texas to go obtain and secure them once the location was disclosed to them.

Out of State does not mean out of the scope of the RO

Keep your mouth shut and lawyer up.

the problem is a RO is a civil matter so you really do not have right to counsel but still shut up/lawyer up since a violation can turn into a criminal matter quickly

I am not a lawyer, I am not giving legal advice, just an opinion
I fully understand what you're saying. The problem I face is that the place is hardly on a main road. There are no roads there. The nearest popo is in Sierra Blanca that's a 100 miles away. Hudspeth County is a little larger than 3/4 the size of Massachusetts and only has 2900 people living there (Dell City, Sierra Blanca and Ft. Hancock). This is no man's land. Seriously, it's no man's land. I don't think the popo could find it if I told them where it was.
 
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Picture this:
Ma cop or judge calls Tx cop or judge and says "A lady 2000 miles away took out an RO. Please go confiscate his weapons"

What do you think the reaction of the locals in Tx will be? And on the off-chance they do take them until the matter is sorted out, your chances of getting them back are astroniomically higher than in Ma
 

TayNinh_66

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Sell them to me quickly :)

I don't advocate doing an end run around the law, but you might want to establish residence in texas and obtain TX FID. You could then legally register them in texas which I would guess is beyond reach of MA. (or sell them to someone in TX which would get them off MA FRB, and then buy them back.)
I would start by getting a copy of your FRB records. http://www.mass.gov/eopss/firearms-reg-and-laws/frb/firearms-forms-and-applications.html to see what the state thinks you own.

There was another individual on the forum recently who suspected a 209A was imminent, and "sold" his weapons to a friend immediately. The forum advice was if you have any reason or inkling to believe that a 209A is possible, then act now because if you wait, your options ma disappear. (and don't piss off the ex)
 

Rob Boudrie

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Sell them to me quickly :)

I don't advocate doing an end run around the law, but you might want to establish residence in texas and obtain TX FID. You could then legally register them in texas which I would guess is beyond reach of MA. (or sell them to someone in TX which would get them off MA FRB, and then buy them back.)
I would start by getting a copy of your FRB records. http://www.mass.gov/eopss/firearms-reg-and-laws/frb/firearms-forms-and-applications.html to see what the state thinks you own.

There was another individual on the forum recently who suspected a 209A was imminent, and "sold" his weapons to a friend immediately. The forum advice was if you have any reason or inkling to believe that a 209A is possible, then act now because if you wait, your options ma disappear. (and don't piss off the ex)
Not really accurate:

1. There is no such thing as a TX FID

2. If you try to "register" your guns in TX, the police will look at you like your some sort of northeasterner or something

3. Once ordered to surrender all guns by a court, nothing is beyond the reach as failure to comply with the court order is criminal contempt. The one thing they could not get you on in a MA charge of unlicensed possession though.
 
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appraiser

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Picture this: A department gets a request to go secure weapons

They say screw it no way

Subject of RO goes to far away place and retrieves the weapons the far away PD didn't feel they had to go get.

The subject of the RO returns to the place he came from and shoots a bunch of people.

LOts of questions will be asked and camera crews will be camped out on the far away PD's doorstep asking lots of questions.


I am not a cop either, but no department in the US of A wants to be in the middle of that schitstorm

Seeing I am not a fan of Lautenberg I would keep my mouth shut, but I would know that getting caught could result in significant Federal jail time.
 
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I'm not trying to dodge anything folks. No distraught girlfriends or angry ex-wives here. It's really more a hypothetical question. What would be my recourse under the aforementioned circumstances. What if it was a Federally directed confiscation? I ask this question simply because rifles I bought in MA are now in Texas and will never return to MA. I'll retire in a few years and I'm moving to Texas so I see no reason to bring them back to MA. I don't need them up here.
 

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your legal recourse to defend yourself vigorously against any allegations and appeal to a higher court if need be.
 

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I'm not trying to dodge anything folks. No distraught girlfriends or angry ex-wives here. It's really more a hypothetical question. What would be my recourse under the aforementioned circumstances. What if it was a Federally directed confiscation? I ask this question simply because rifles I bought in MA are now in Texas and will never return to MA. I'll retire in a few years and I'm moving to Texas so I see no reason to bring them back to MA. I don't need them up here.
Simply fill out change of address form when you legally change your residence.
http://www.mass.gov/eopss/firearms-reg-and-laws/frb/firearms-forms-and-applications.html
 

GSG

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This isn't as hypothetical as you'd imagine, and luckily for you there's binding caselaw on this subject.

In Massachusetts, you're required to complete FA-10's under most circumstances. However there's no requirement that you give any other testimony or provide any assistance to law enforcement as to the disposition/location of that firearm other than filling out the form at the times when it's required. It's a basic 5th Amendment right of yours.

This is the opening lines of Comm. v. Hughes, 380 Mass. 583 (1980):

A Berkshire County grand jury on October 4, 1978, indicted the defendant Edward H. Hughes on two counts of assault by means of a dangerous weapon, to wit, a pistol (G. L. c. 265, Section 15B). The charges arose from an incident in Otis, Massachusetts, on June 21, 1978, when the defendant allegedly assaulted John Joyner and Leonard Terranova by firing two rounds through the front windshield of a truck in which the men were sitting. [Note 1] Inspection of a recovered bullet suggested that it came from either a .38 caliber or .357 magnum handgun. On June 22, 1978, the Otis chief of police asked the defendant whether he owned either kind of gun and, if so, whether he would surrender it voluntarily for examination. The defendant produced a .357 magnum pistol. Tests showed it had not been recently fired. The defendant refused consent to a search of his car, which was impounded at the time, for any additional weapon. However, the police on June 22 obtained a warrant for search of the car for "[e]ither a 38 calibre or 357 Magnum pistol and spent shells from either." Police executed the warrant that day and made the return: "Nothing pertaining to warrant found."

The defendant pleaded not guilty on October 10, 1978, and was released on personal recognizance. Customary defense motions followed. On March 28, 1979, the Commonwealth filed a "Motion to Order Defendant to Produce Weapon" for ballistics examination. The weapon was described in the motion as a "Smith and Wesson .38 Caliber Revolver Serial Number J354354." An accompanying affidavit stated that the defendant had registered the revolver with the firearms identification division of the Department of Public Safety. This was apparently under G. L. c. 140, Section 128B; and we note that pursuant to Section 129C such a registrant must report to the division any sale, gift, or other transfer of possession of the weapon; failure to do so is criminally punishable (G. L. c. 269, Section 10 [h]). The motion was allowed after hearing: the defendant was ordered to produce the described revolver within ten days; the Commonwealth was ordered to give the defendant a copy of any ballistics test results within ten days of receiving them; and "[a]ny question concerning the admissibility of evidence emanating from the allowance of this motion is deferred to the trial justice, if appropriately raised."

The defendant attempted to secure immediate review of the order by applying to a single justice of this court to exercise our supervisory power, G. L. c. 211, Sections 3 and 4A, claiming that the judge's order, if enforced, would violate his constitutional privilege against self-incrimination. [Note 2] The single justice denied the application on July 6, 1979, observing that regular review could be had on an appeal from an adjudication of contempt for failure to comply with the order, or, if the indictments went to trial, then on appeal from a judgment of conviction, with error claimed in the trial judge's refusal to exclude the gun "and all evidence derived from the production thereof."

On July 27, 1979, the Commonwealth demanded by registered letter that the defendant turn over the gun within twenty-four hours or face contempt charges. On the defendant's failure to reply, the Commonwealth on August 21, 1979, instituted proceedings for contempt which were brought to hearing on August 30. A representative of the firearms identification division testified that on March 23, 1976 (twenty-seven months before the alleged assault) the defendant had registered the gun described, and had not since then filed any report of transfer of the gun. In his findings, ruling, and order of August 30, 1979, the judge found that the defendant had purchased the revolver on March 23, 1976, and had not filed any further report. The defendant was held in contempt but given until 3 P.M. that day to produce the weapon or show present inability to do so, otherwise he would be incarcerated until purgation or further order of the court.
The highest court in Massachusetts ruled in his favor citing his right to not incriminate himself. You do not have to explain firearm provenance, period.

Out of State does not mean out of the scope of the RO
Bingo. This is the heart of it if the crazy ex has that paper order. How hard anyone will look for them depends on a million other factors.

Picture this:
Ma cop or judge calls Tx cop or judge and says "A lady 2000 miles away took out an RO. Please go confiscate his weapons"
Believe it or not it's happened. Not in TX that I know of but law enforcement is very well networked.

obtain TX FID
I don't know whether to laugh or cry. I don't say this in an offensive way...it's just that there's a whole other world out there brother.
 

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Failure to disclose location of ALL guns/ammo is a serious criminal charge under MGL C. 269 S. 10, look it up.

A 209A in MA is known as the Lautenberg Act under Federal Law and requires confiscation of guns when a DV RO is issued anywhere in the US. TX will be notified and it will be up to them to go and get the guns. It will then no longer be your problem and you will have avoided a 269-10 charge in MA.

Once order is vacated, the TX authorities will return your guns. The MA authorities will likely NOT have your guns . . . a bonded warehouse will have them . . . and you will likely never see them again unless you pay the bonded warehouse more than they were worth! Not to mention even when vacated, your chief may still determine you as "unsuitable" and refuse to return your LTC ever.
 

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269-10(i) makes it a felony (to the feds) to violate 140-129D by not surrendering your guns when your license is voided for whatever reason. You're required to bring them all to your local police department, but you're not required to make any statements.

Re-reading my last post in the context of the thread it seems like I was suggesting that people violate the law, but I didn't mean it that way. All guns must be turned in, but a chief trying to charge you for a gun thzt has a paper trail with your name on it that you didn't turn in won't make it very far. Being charged with it could bankrupt you but any explanation provided to LE about how you disposed of the gun could get you in other legal trouble.

It's important that people remember that they don't have to incriminate themselves. Follow the law, but don't be bullied into thinking you need to save every FA-10 and keep insane records on where every gun you ever owned is today.
 

Rob Boudrie

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If you do get rid of guns in anticipation of a 209A, it is best to do so in a way that documentably transfers ownership - for example, FA-10 (limit 4/calendar year) or FFL transfer. You need to remove any chance the argument could be made that you still have "constructive possession" (i.e., the ability to gain access to the guns by issuing instructions to someone exercising physical control).
 
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Failure to disclose location of ALL guns/ammo is a serious criminal charge under MGL C. 269 S. 10, look it up.

A 209A in MA is known as the Lautenberg Act under Federal Law and requires confiscation of guns when a DV RO is issued anywhere in the US. TX will be notified and it will be up to them to go and get the guns. It will then no longer be your problem and you will have avoided a 269-10 charge in MA.

Once order is vacated, the TX authorities will return your guns. The MA authorities will likely NOT have your guns . . . a bonded warehouse will have them . . . and you will likely never see them again unless you pay the bonded warehouse more than they were worth! Not to mention even when vacated, your chief may still determine you as "unsuitable" and refuse to return your LTC ever.

I'll be happy to disclose location. I'll even give them the GPS coordinates. The odds of Sheriff West wanting to go out there is pretty slim though. Avoiding a bonded warehouse is a plus!!!!
 
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If you do get rid of guns in anticipation of a 209A, it is best to do so in a way that documentably transfers ownership - for example, FA-10 (limit 4/calendar year) or FFL transfer. You need to remove any chance the argument could be made that you still have "constructive possession" (i.e., the ability to gain access to the guns by issuing instructions to someone exercising physical control).
Again I'm not anticipating any 209A but that is valuable advice in general with respect to insuring a solid paper trail.

The FA-10 is really a sink hole for people that legally move a firearm out of state without selling it. I'll be glad to get out of this place and rid myself of these insane laws.
 
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These are bothersome hypotheticals, if you aren't facing such a situation, then why ask?

It would be incumbent upon the local law enforcement authorities in Texas to confiscate your rifles there. If or how they do it, is incumbent on them, and not you. As far as locating your ranch, believe it or not, I have some familiarity with that particular part of Texas. The local Sheriff's Dept there would have a pretty extensive knowledge of the county no matter how sparsely populated and remote it might be. It is amazing how efficient county sheriff's departments are in large western states, frequently patrolling areas larger in geographical area than Massachusetts, and frequently with a fairly small amount of personnel. You are thinking like an Easterner...if they need to find your location, they can and will.
 
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Again I'm not anticipating any 209A but that is valuable advice in general with respect to insuring a solid paper trail.

The FA-10 is really a sink hole for people that legally move a firearm out of state without selling it. I'll be glad to get out of this place and rid myself of these insane laws.
do you need a ranch hand?
 
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These are bothersome hypotheticals, if you aren't facing such a situation, then why ask?

It would be incumbent upon the local law enforcement authorities in Texas to confiscate your rifles there. If or how they do it, is incumbent on them, and not you. As far as locating your ranch, believe it or not, I have some familiarity with that particular part of Texas. The local Sheriff's Dept there would have a pretty extensive knowledge of the county no matter how sparsely populated and remote it might be. It is amazing how efficient county sheriff's departments are in large western states, frequently patrolling areas larger in geographical area than Massachusetts, and frequently with a fairly small amount of personnel. You are thinking like an Easterner...if they need to find your location, they can and will.
Why the hypothetical? Let's approach it from a different scenario. Federal Government orders a mandatory confiscation of all firearms and the MSP or local PoPo show up at my door and demand that I turn over said rifles. I tell them I don't have them here and that they are in another state. Does that make it more real and is it bothersome under that scenario? I am hung out here. I have rifles in another state that I can't produce on demand and it would be nice to know what my options are besides cuffs and a jail cell.
 

GSG

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Let's approach it from a different scenario. Federal Government orders a mandatory confiscation of all firearms and the MSP or local PoPo show up at my door and demand that I turn over said rifles. I tell them I don't have them here and that they are in another state.
Any federal confiscation would probably have it's own set of rules to follow. Also, the Feds have offices in every state, so they wouldn't necessarily need to contact your local sheriff [wink].
 
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Why the hypothetical? Let's approach it from a different scenario. Federal Government orders a mandatory confiscation of all firearms and the MSP or local PoPo show up at my door and demand that I turn over said rifles. I tell them I don't have them here and that they are in another state. Does that make it more real and is it bothersome under that scenario? I am hung out here. I have rifles in another state that I can't produce on demand and it would be nice to know what my options are besides cuffs and a jail cell.
Sounds like another hypothetical to me. Besides, under that scenario, I am quite sure the Feds would have a different set of protocols in confiscating all your firearms. Of course I am sure (since we have plenty of idle time speculating) that you would be more than willing to divulge the location of all your firearms after 24 hours in a Federal Interrogation Facility (since you want to play worse case scenario, thought I'd add that [smile]).
 

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Somebody should just a 209 against every person in law enforcement and FBI/CIA/NSA/SS, etc.
 
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