Question about non-LTC holders at home

[dcmdon]

Len - do they typically have a warrant when they come in?

I ask because this could make a good case for hiding the guns that are not registered in MA. As always the first rule is never lie to a cop. But you don't have to assist in the confiscation by leading them to the firearms.

 

[FreeWillie]

p.s. this is a solid argument for moving all my guns back to my residence in CT except for a couple of target pistols and my carry guns. Right?

Even that won't save you. If the guns have FA-10's associated with them and are on the list of guns you own, you'll be required to divulge the location of the firearms in Conn and the Conn cops will go there and confiscate them.

I'm in a pickle should something happen and they want to confiscate my firearms. I have sold several rifles that have FA-10's showing me as the owner but were sold to persons out of state. All I have is a hand written BOS with their signature to prove the sale. You think they are going to buy that or do you think they are going to tear my house apart looking for those rifles?

 

[dcmdon]

Even that won't save you. If the guns have FA-10's associated with them and are on the list of guns you own, you'll be required to divulge the location of the firearms in Conn and the Conn cops will go there and confiscate them.

I'm in a pickle should something happen and they want to confiscate my firearms. I have sold several rifles that have FA-10's showing me as the owner but were sold to persons out of state. All I have is a hand written BOS with their signature to prove the sale. You think they are going to buy that or do you think they are going to tear my house apart looking for those rifles?

You never have to divulge anything to the police. Once in CT, it buys the owner time. Which would allow him to loan them to others, which is perfectly legal in CT. You would be under no obligation to tell them who you loaned them to. Also, in CT. If you have something like a restraining order placed against you, the cops give you a heads up so you can transfer or loan them to someone else. Thats how it goes in CT. No swat team at your door. The only time guns are taken without warning is in the case of a Risk Warrant. Go to CTCarry.com and read up on them if you'd like.

The fact that you did an FA10 on them while they are in MA does not give MA any kind of authority, while they are in another state. Where did you get that crazy idea?

And when you do sell a gun out of state and get a bill of sale, they might look all over your house. But they won't find it . will they? It doesn't change the fact that its not there to be found. Again. Never lie to a cop. But you don't have to talk to them either.

Don

 

[FreeWillie]

You never have to divulge anything to the police. Once in CT, it buys the owner time. Which would allow him to loan them to others, which is perfectly legal in CT.

The fact that you did an FA10 on them while they are in MA does not give MA any kind of authority of them while they are in another state. Where did you get that crazy idea?

And when you do sell a gun out of state and get a bill of sale, they might look all over your house. But they won't find it . will they? It doesn't change the fact that its not there to be found. Again. Never lie to a cop. But you don't have to talk to them either.

Don

It's the fact that they'll tear my house apart looking for them..... That usually don't put things back where they found them. They will call Conn and have the police confiscate the firearms. They are Mass registered and owned by a Mass resident. Kinda makes your head explode doesn't it? Only way to escape this hell hole is to leave it and breathe free air again.

 

[dcmdon]

I don't know what you mean by "mass registered". That doesn't mean anything. They could also be CA registered, NJ registered, and NY registered. All at the same time. MA has no legal authority to try to get those guns unless they are evidence in a crime or unlawfully in CT in some way. Which they wouldn't be.

How will CT police know where they are anyway? You don't have to tell anyone anyway.

I don't know how many firearms you own or how much they are worth. But at a certain point, it becomes worth clamming up and letting them make a mess of the house.

 

[JerryT]

I fully intended to get her comfortable around and shooting guns even before this thread. I didnt realize that they need for a LTC even in the home. I can say that she will NEVER carry with 100% confidence in that statement, but I really want her comfortable grabbing one of my guns if the shtf and I'm not around.

My Wife broke out in Hives during the class room at MFS..She is the picture of "I am a lover and not a fighter" and does not have a mean bone in her body...Did not think she was going to be able to do the live fire part of the course...She gets in the lane and like a little old lady picks the gun up...Shaking like it was a snake ready to bite her...Took her about 30 seconds to squeeze off the first round.......After the second shot she was possessed by the ghost of Dirty Harry and fired off the next three rounds one after another!! The Instructor could not get the guns reloaded quick enough for her She finished her shots and comes back and asks me if I can buy her some more rounds because she wants to shoot more

Yesterday she purchased her first carry weapon and can not wait to go to the range!

 

[FreeWillie]

My Wife broke out in Hives during the class room at MFS..She is the picture of "I am a lover and not a fighter" and does not have a mean bone in her body...Did not think she was going to be able to do the live fire part of the course...She gets in the lane and like a little old lady picks the gun up...Shaking like it was a snake ready to bite her...Took her about 30 seconds to squeeze off the first round.......After the second shot she was possessed by the ghost of Dirty Harry and fired off the next three rounds one after another!! The Instructor could not get the guns reloaded quick enough for her She finished her shots and comes back and asks me if I can buy her some more rounds because she wants to shoot more

Yesterday she purchased her first carry weapon and can not wait to go to the range!

Irrational fear overcome. She's a keeper.

 

[FreeWillie]

I don't know what you mean by "mass registered".

Don't play stupid. If you filled out a FA-10 it's registered in the Commonwealth. They say it's not registration but it is. They know who owns what and when they bought it. They ****ed with the language and said "it's not registration" but it is.

 

[Matt E]

First thing you do is have someone get them out of the house and ideally out of the state. What some people don't realize is how little most other states will work with Mass. No free state would waste their time with this crap.

 

[Dmiller27]

this is utter B.S. I would think we could actually sue the state of MA if somebody was harmed in a home and didn't have the means to protect themselves due to laws that the state created.

 

[mwalsh9152]

Beg her to get an LTC-A even if she plans never to touch a gun in her life - it's a cheap form of legal insurance FOR HER if she ever ends up in control of weapons due to circumstances outside of her control.

And take yourself and her to LenS's class - see my sig. And no, I am not getting anything from Len for pushing his class - just a happy customer who took his class and was shocked at how easily I could have lost my rights due to my less than good understanding of the convoluted MA gun laws.

thanks, I actually intend to take one of LenS' classes this summer. It was a long time ago that I took the NRA course for my ltc, gun safety is a no brainer for me....but the blurry laws of gun ownership in Ma concern me

 

[Len-2A Training]

Len - do they typically have a warrant when they come in?

I ask because this could make a good case for hiding the guns that are not registered in MA. As always the first rule is never lie to a cop. But you don't have to assist in the confiscation by leading them to the firearms.

MGL says that you MUST ASSIST. Failure to do so is a felony under MGL C. 269 S. 10(a) & (h) per (i)! If at any time your LTC is suspended/revoked/209A issued, you MUST tell them were any/all guns/ammo/large-cap mags are even if outside MA. MGL on suspension/revocation/209A gives them that right. If you refuse to let them in, they will come back with a Warrant to search for them. See below.

Don, you really need to educate yourself about MGL, this isn't CT and you have no rights in MA only privileges allowed us by the "crown" on Bacon Hill.

Even that won't save you. If the guns have FA-10's associated with them and are on the list of guns you own, you'll be required to divulge the location of the firearms in Conn and the Conn cops will go there and confiscate them.

I'm in a pickle should something happen and they want to confiscate my firearms. I have sold several rifles that have FA-10's showing me as the owner but were sold to persons out of state. All I have is a hand written BOS with their signature to prove the sale. You think they are going to buy that or do you think they are going to tear my house apart looking for those rifles?

It would be up to the PD in CT to act or not. On a 209A they have to, anything else it's optional. And yes, they could rip out the walls searching for them if they want to and no responsibility for repairs. [I know of a low level drug dealer who was caught almost 30 years ago. They got a warrant and busted out the walls in his house, found cash and drugs hidden in the walls. Info was from police officers involved in the case. Eventually the house was torn down and a new one built on that property.]

It's the fact that they'll tear my house apart looking for them..... That usually don't put things back where they found them. They will call Conn and have the police confiscate the firearms. They are Mass registered and owned by a Mass resident. Kinda makes your head explode doesn't it? Only way to escape this hell hole is to leave it and breathe free air again.

See above.

I don't know what you mean by "mass registered". That doesn't mean anything. They could also be CA registered, NJ registered, and NY registered. All at the same time. MA has no legal authority to try to get those guns unless they are evidence in a crime or unlawfully in CT in some way. Which they wouldn't be.

How will CT police know where they are anyway? You don't have to tell anyone anyway.

I don't know how many firearms you own or how much they are worth. But at a certain point, it becomes worth clamming up and letting them make a mess of the house.

Not true, see above. What CT does with info is up to them.

First thing you do is have someone get them out of the house and ideally out of the state. What some people don't realize is how little most other states will work with Mass. No free state would waste their time with this crap.

Maybe true, maybe not. On a 209A I'm aware that Manchester NH PD was contacted and did the confiscation (required by Fed Law, Lautenberg Act).

 

[dcmdon]

this is utter B.S. I would think we could actually sue the state of MA if somebody was harmed in a home and didn't have the means to protect themselves due to laws that the state created.

You could. And you might have a shot . . in federal court. Don't bother in state court since they've proven themselves to be against that sort of thing.

 

[dcmdon]

Len,

What you are describing are state laws that run counter to the 5th Amendment. You certainly don't have to assist if it might incriminate yourself. You always have a right to say nothing. Even in MA. I'm not saying you couldn't lead them to the safe and open it for them. But if the guns they are expecting aren't there, you certainly don't have to answer any questions.

I'm reading sections A, H, and I.

Its clear that these laws were written as if MA existed in a vacuum. There is no federal law and no state laws in (for example) NH or CT to prevent a MA resident from loaning a firearm to a resident of those states and leaving it with that person as long as they can lawfully posses that firearm.


They also fail to consider people who have multiple residences. If you have a home in FL and bring a firearm associated with you to FL and MA police try to take that firearm, its not there to take. you could not comply if you wanted to.

In (i) I guess the key word is "possessed". If they are possessed in FL, then as far the states authority under the law are they "possessed" as described in (i). I would say not. MA does not have any interstate authority. I suspect that if MA petitioned the FL SP to retrieve a firearm simply because that person no longer had a valid MA LTC, the FL SP would tell them to go pound sand.

If the person was charged with something that made them a PP, its different.

Thoughts?

 

[Terminator03]

Len,

What you are describing are state laws that run counter to the 5th Amendment. You certainly don't have to assist if it might incriminate yourself. You always have a right to say nothing. Even in MA. I'm not saying you couldn't lead them to the safe and open it for them. But if the guns they are expecting aren't there, you certainly don't have to answer any questions.

I'm reading sections A, H, and I.

Its clear that these laws were written as if MA existed in a vacuum. There is no federal law and no state laws in (for example) NH or CT to prevent a MA resident from loaning a firearm to a resident of those states and leaving it with that person as long as they can lawfully posses that firearm.


They also fail to consider people who have multiple residences. If you have a home in FL and bring a firearm associated with you to FL and MA police try to take that firearm, its not there to take. you could not comply if you wanted to.

In (i) I guess the key word is "possessed". If they are possessed in FL, then as far the states authority under the law are they "possessed" as described in (i). I would say not. MA does not have any interstate authority. I suspect that if MA petitioned the FL SP to retrieve a firearm simply because that person no longer had a valid MA LTC, the FL SP would tell them to go pound sand.

If the person was charged with something that made them a PP, its different.

Thoughts?

What you say sounds very logical, but this IS MA we are discussing, so who knows. I do think that last statement is the clincher, though. If you become a federally pp, then I would say that would make the biggest difference. If it was while you were being investigated in MA for a defensive shooting (for example), then I would think that FL would not get involved as long as you were in good standing there. Not sure how it would play out for a 209a, though.

 

[Matt E]

Len,

What you are describing are state laws that run counter to the 5th Amendment. You certainly don't have to assist if it might incriminate yourself. You always have a right to say nothing. Even in MA. I'm not saying you couldn't lead them to the safe and open it for them. But if the guns they are expecting aren't there, you certainly don't have to answer any questions.

I'm reading sections A, H, and I.

Its clear that these laws were written as if MA existed in a vacuum. There is no federal law and no state laws in (for example) NH or CT to prevent a MA resident from loaning a firearm to a resident of those states and leaving it with that person as long as they can lawfully posses that firearm.


They also fail to consider people who have multiple residences. If you have a home in FL and bring a firearm associated with you to FL and MA police try to take that firearm, its not there to take. you could not comply if you wanted to.

In (i) I guess the key word is "possessed". If they are possessed in FL, then as far the states authority under the law are they "possessed" as described in (i). I would say not. MA does not have any interstate authority. I suspect that if MA petitioned the FL SP to retrieve a firearm simply because that person no longer had a valid MA LTC, the FL SP would tell them to go pound sand.

If the person was charged with something that made them a PP, its different.

Thoughts?

Exactly. There's a whole lot of people in free states. Let them chase and even then they won't find them. Don't tell them who has them. FHP wouldn't be involved since it's not highway related and the sheriff won't waste their time with it ESPECIALLY seeing it's a request from MA. If you are in a incorporated area and there is a local force there is a very slim chance they would act. But then again who down there would assist MA in any way, unless a situation that requires it under federal law. Talking to cops is the first mistake. Assisting them is the second and even bigger mistake. Rip my house apart all you want but I'm not giving things away.

 

[dcmdon]

I think the most important thing in a situation like this is to not do anything until you speak to an attorney.

Which goes to the fact that everyone who owns firearms in MA should have an established relationship with an Atty. knowledgeable in MA firearms law.

I fail that test presently.

 

[Livefreeormass]

Great info folks. Back to OP's point... If I authorize my family members, adult and children, to access guns under my name INSIDE the house, to defend life and property, is it still illegal in MA? This is getting serious!

 

[lancecolonel]

Great info folks. Back to OP's point... If I authorize my family members, adult and children, to access guns under my name INSIDE the house, to defend life and property, is it still illegal in MA? This is getting serious!

pretty sure only the state of mass can authorize it's [STRIKE=]inmates[/STRIKE] residents/visitors to use icky guns. even our storage laws are allegedly to prevent unauthorized use, they supposedly have nothing to do with theft. or so i read on the internet.......

 

[dragonballzz]

Great info folks. Back to OP's point... If I authorize my family members, adult and children, to access guns under my name INSIDE the house, to defend life and property, is it still illegal in MA? This is getting serious!

From what I've read, you're not allowed to defend your life or property in MA.

 

[TLB]

Great info folks. Back to OP's point... If I authorize my family members, adult and children, to access guns under my name INSIDE the house, to defend life and property, is it still illegal in MA? This is getting serious!

Can't defend property.

 

[dragonballzz]

Can't defend property.

I work all my life to be able to buy my property. If I lost my property to a thief, they also took my life. Right!?!?

 

[MisterHappy]

Great info folks. Back to OP's point... If I authorize my family members, adult and children, to access guns under my name INSIDE the house, to defend life and property, is it still illegal in MA? This is getting serious!

If you are present, then the un-licensed individual may temporarily "possess" the firearm (in the broad, not MGL sense of the term); it's like at a basic pistol class, or taking a Non to the range. That's permitted under the law.
So, if you have a home invasion while you're home, "issuing arms" to all is likely not unlawful.
Giving the Ms. or Junior the key, or the combo to the safe, as you leave is a no-no. Because you're permitting access by unlicensed individuals. That's the (supposed) intent of the Mass Safe Storage Law, after all.

Now...you may, as an adult, make the decision to perform the above-described action, because you think it's "right".....and it may be....but it's unlawful.

And, as was pointed out, you may not use deadly force to defend property. As for life....well, you may or may not have to retreat, depending on where in/on the property you are.....

Yeah.....it's FUBAR.

 

[Len-2A Training]

Don,

MA does operate in a vacuum. SJC Chief Justice Margaret Marshall was quoted to essentially say so (I don't have exact quote) . . . something to the effect "that we don't always abide by the USSC decisions"! [It is a searchable quote.]

I think the most important thing in a situation like this is to not do anything until you speak to an attorney.

Which goes to the fact that everyone who owns firearms in MA should have an established relationship with an Atty. knowledgeable in MA firearms law.

I fail that test presently.

Failure to turn everything over (or tell them where they are if elsewhere) immediately is a Felony . . . one that I'd bet would stick even if you invoked the 5th and insisted on talking with an attorney first.

Great info folks. Back to OP's point... If I authorize my family members, adult and children, to access guns under my name INSIDE the house, to defend life and property, is it still illegal in MA? This is getting serious!

Only the Commiewealth can "authorize" anyone, sorry. Yes, what you propose is illegal in MA.

 

[Greschner 4]

CT is still a very carry friendly state.

Its effectively shall issue.
Its Open Carry - not that I do it. But if I accidentally print, I don't have anything to worry about.

http://ctcarry.com/Document/Download/a034b530-1221-425d-a99f-53af710ff219


Even with the new law, you are only to put 10 rounds in your high cap mags (ha). But your first offense if you are caught with more than 10 rounds is only a non-criminal infraction.
So my attitude is that if you are going to violate that part of the law. Make it count. If you are going to Open Carry, where there is a chance an officer will check your gun, do it with 10 rounds. The second offense is a felony so you only get one "freebee".

But if you are going to carry concealed. You might as well load up.

Don

Slight thread hijack, but considering OC is legal in MA, what BS that a town firearms officer can jam you up, "suitability wise", if you are printing or have a quick reveal of your goods.

 

[WatchCityCPA]

Slight thread hijack, but considering OC is legal in MA, what BS that a town firearms officer can jam you up, "suitability wise", if you are printing or have a quick reveal of your goods.

OC is legal in MA in name only. The "suitability" clause can and has been used to suppress OC by taking the LTC away from people who engange in OC intentionally or accidentally (lean over and a "citizen" sees your gun, gets scared, calls police, good-bye LTC).

 

[45collector]

Slight thread hijack, but considering OC is legal in MA, what BS that a town firearms officer can jam you up, "suitability wise", if you are printing or have a quick reveal of your goods.

Sorry, but what is a "town firearms officer" exactly?

 

[Len-2A Training]

Slight thread hijack, but considering OC is legal in MA, what BS that a town firearms officer can jam you up, "suitability wise", if you are printing or have a quick reveal of your goods.

Gee, I don't know! Why not ask Joe Landers? Or at least read this thread:
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/massachusetts-laws/10681-dedham-update.html

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry, but what is a "town firearms officer" exactly?

My town has one of those. If one calls the PD and wants to turn over guns, they are told to wait until the "firearms officer" is on duty . . . nobody else will touch them!

I wish I were joking, but I'm not.

 

[Greschner 4]

Gee, I don't know! Why not ask Joe Landers? Or at least read this thread:
http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/massachusetts-laws/10681-dedham-update.html

- - - Updated - - -



I had forgotten about the Landers case. Seeing that all "suitability events/issues" gets remanded back to the town that issued your license, it goes without saying that you hope your town remains green and that any relationship (to the extent its possible) with the PD remains positive.

 

[cpkeo1]

Holy freaking hell - I am completely shocked after reading this thread. I don't know why - I guess I should have known better. But seriously if I defend myself righteously with my firearm they will take all my firearms while they investigate me???(leaving me defenseless to further attacks and they very well might be forthcoming from angry family/friends of the bad guy) And I guess the kicker was that you won't even get them back!?!? I am withholding the expletive laden tirade that is flowing through my brain right now. I HATE MASSACHUSETTS - this place is retarded.