Question about my range bag and my pickup or Harley?

[Electric Eric]

Ok, it seems the laws are totally against us, and I like to be one step ahead of the law. So here goes:
My range bag is a soft sided "gym bag" that has flaps and pouches and fits everything i need in it. It doesn't lock, and even if it did, a razor knife will go thru it easily. My questions are:
1) If I rig up a way to lock the zipper, does this cover as a locked container?
2) My S10 is not an extended cab, and has NO room for the bag except on the seat next to me, and if i have both doors locked, is this legal. or should i build a steel box with a lock in the back of the truck inside the cap?
3) The S10 has a cap on it, so if the tailgate window is locked,(the only way in without smashing a window) is this ok? (it has windows all around) I'm going to paint the inside of the windows this weekend so prying eyes can't see in.
4) I guess i can't Bungee my range bag between the handlebars of the Harley and enjoy the 18 mile ride thru the country on a warm night to get to the range, right?
5) When i take long guns to the range, they're locked in the cap of the pickup in unlocked rifle bags with trigger locks on them. Is this legal to transport in this manner?
**** Why can't they come up with a simple, easy to read, common man's rulebook on how, where, and what we can be cited for in terms that can be understood by a non-lawyer working person like myself?****
It seems that every step I make trying to be compliant is twisted and turned by bylaws, exceptions, little known things that only a lawyer or LEO would know. *****
Thanks for any input and help.

 

[IPSC_DRL]

If it has a lock on it, it is a "locked container".

My saddle bags lock.




Oh, and "**** Why can't they come up with a simple, easy to read, common man's rulebook on how, where, and what we can be cited for in terms that can be understood by a non-lawyer working person like myself?****"

There's no money in that...............

 

[Electric Eric]

That's a nice setup, but i don't have the storage in this:

It's a 1981 Shovelhead, the saddlebag has tools and old man stuff in it, no room for a range bag.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

"LEO would know". Are you sure? Jack.

 

[jefftk]

Ok, it seems the laws are totally against us, and I like to be one step ahead of the law. So here goes:
My range bag is a soft sided "gym bag" that has flaps and pouches and fits everything i need in it. It doesn't lock, and even if it did, a razor knife will go thru it easily. My questions are:
1) If I rig up a way to lock the zipper, does this cover as a locked container?
2) My S10 is not an extended cab, and has NO room for the bag except on the seat next to me, and if i have both doors locked, is this legal. or should i build a steel box with a lock in the back of the truck inside the cap?
3) The S10 has a cap on it, so if the tailgate window is locked,(the only way in without smashing a window) is this ok? (it has windows all around) I'm going to paint the inside of the windows this weekend so prying eyes can't see in.
4) I guess i can't Bungee my range bag between the handlebars of the Harley and enjoy the 18 mile ride thru the country on a warm night to get to the range, right?
5) When i take long guns to the range, they're locked in the cap of the pickup in unlocked rifle bags with trigger locks on them. Is this legal to transport in this manner?
**** Why can't they come up with a simple, easy to read, common man's rulebook on how, where, and what we can be cited for in terms that can be understood by a non-lawyer working person like myself?****
It seems that every step I make trying to be compliant is twisted and turned by bylaws, exceptions, little known things that only a lawyer or LEO would know. *****
Thanks for any input and help.

IANAL, but I did take LenS's MA gun law course, and I probably stayed at a holiday inn at some point in the last decade.
1) Yes, that is covered as a locked container
2) Yes, that is fine, the bag should be locked though
3) That is fine.
4) Not 100% sure, but, I would think that if the bag is locked and you don't stop and leave the bike & bag anywhere it should be fine. (I've ridden to the range before with ammo locked in a bag tied to the sissy bar, can't remember if I ever did that with a gun in the bag too, and with my 10/22 takedown on my back (in its bag, locked). I'm not aware of any reason why that would not have been legal)
5) Trigger locks are not suitable for transportation. If they are not high capacity long guns, then they do not need to be locked at all. If they are high capacity the case needs to be locked.

ETA:So far as an easy to read "common mans" law book, there is this: http://www.shop.goal.org/product.sc?productId=19 I don't think it will clarify anything with regards to motorcycles though.

 

[Alex9661]

**** Why can't they come up with a simple, easy to read, common man's rulebook on how, where, and what we can be cited for in terms that can be understood by a non-lawyer working person like myself?****

Ayn Rand answered your question
"The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws".

 

[Electric Eric]

Thank you, Jeff. Clear, concise, and not political!
Hats off you you!

 

[dcmdon]

If the saddle bag locks, then the gun bag does NOT have to be locked.

I'm on my phone right now, but can't provide a citation when I get home.

Sent from Samsung Note 2

 

[Electric Eric]

ETA:So far as an easy to read "common mans" law book, there is this: MA Firearms Laws Booklet - Gun Owners' Action League I don't think it will clarify anything with regards to motorcycles though.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, I just ordered it.

 

[Wrench75]

Earlier this year the Ma SJC held a hearing to decide if they were going to uphold the Ma storage laws. Unfortunately they did. But one thing they did do was state that, soft cases like pistol bags and glass front display cases ARE considered legal storage as long as they are locked in some way.

As for transport. Throw the locked case in the bed of the truck. I do it all the time. I was stopped in Ri last year for a seat belt violation. The statie sees the case in my bed and asks, "Is there a gun in there?" I said "yes there is an sks in there, the case is locked and so is the gun." "He said but it is in your bed." I then informed him that it is only required to be locked down during transport, and that whenever I stop the truck, like to go in a store, I lock the case in the cab. Again he said "but it is in your bed" to which i replied. "Unless your worried about someone running by the truck at 65mph and grabbing it then I don't see the problem." He then asked if there were any other guns in the truck, I said "yes my carry piece is holstered on my hip and I had no intention of stopping in Ri until you put your lights on."

After that there were no more gun questions. Never asked to see my LTC. He went back to the car and came back with one of the two seat belt tickets I should have received. Then I was on my way. I always take my truck to the range and always throw my cases in the bed since I usually have a passenger coming to the range with me. I have never had a problem.

On a side note, a gun lock alone is not considered legal storage in Ma. So if you have a locked gun in an unlocked case it is still in violation.

 

[dcmdon]

Here is a link to the law:

General Laws: CHAPTER 140, Section 131C

As Jefftk said, a fifty cent lock on the zipper of the bag meets the requirement of a locked container. As does the saddle bag. Either will suffice.

Remember, though that if you have a LTC-A, the requirement of a locked container only applies to large capacity firearms. Although it would be prudent to apply it to all firearms because many LEOs don't actually know the law.

No person possessing a large capacity rifle or shotgun under a Class A or Class B license issued under section 131 or 131F shall possess the same in a vehicle unless such weapon is unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container.

1) if you are on the bike and have a Large capacity firearm in the bag, either the bag or the saddle bag must be locked. Not both. If the bag does not contain a LCF, then neither needs to be locked. (at least according to the law)

2) If you are in the S10 and don't have a LCF with you, nothing needs to be locked by law. If you have a LCF, you could make the argument that you need to keep it locked. Except for this part:

Section 131C. (a) No person carrying a loaded firearm under a Class A license issued under section 131 or 131F shall carry the same in a vehicle unless such firearm while carried therein is under the direct control of such person. Whoever violates the provisions of this subsection shall be punished by a fine of $500.

The bag on the passenger seat of your truck is under your direct control. Of course the law says this only applies to LOADED firearms, so draw your own conclusions.

Either way. I'm only splitting these hairs because I hate locking my gun bag. The one time I've done so while in MA, I've ended up forgetting the key. Its one of my pet peeves when I see MA people going through all kinds of contortions locking their guns before transporting when 75% of the time its not necessary.

I own a car with a trunk that is not accessible from inside the car. So I never lock my gun bag.

One other ridiculous thing I see MA people do is putting a lock on their gun before transporting. The sad fact is that it does them no legal good. The law says "locked case . .or secure container". A gun lock is neither.

This is fun isn't it?

In case anyone is interested, here is a link to the locks I use: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004K7QI2S/ref=wms_ohs_product_img?ie=UTF8&psc=1

$10 for 10 shipped. Not bad. And if you forget a key, you can cut it off with the leatherman you keep in your gun bag.

 

[dcmdon]

As for transport. Throw the locked case in the bed of the truck. I do it all the time. I was stopped in Ri last year for a seat belt violation. The statie sees the case in my bed and asks, "Is there a gun in there?" I said "yes there is an sks in there, the case is locked and so is the gun." "He said but it is in your bed." I then informed him that it is only required to be locked down during transport, and that whenever I stop the truck, like to go in a store, I lock the case in the cab. Again he said "but it is in your bed" to which i replied. "Unless your worried about someone running by the truck at 65mph and grabbing it then I don't see the problem." He then asked if there were any other guns in the truck, I said "yes my carry piece is holstered on my hip and I had no intention of stopping in Ri until you put your lights on."

Do you have a RI carry permit?? If not, that cop cut you a HUUUUUUUUGGGGE break. He could have LEGITIMATELY busted you for some kind of felony charge for carrying without a permit.

FOPA does not apply to carrying. Only transporting.

 

[KenK]

NICE>>>>>

If it has a lock on it, it is a "locked container".

My saddle bags lock.




Oh, and "**** Why can't they come up with a simple, easy to read, common man's rulebook on how, where, and what we can be cited for in terms that can be understood by a non-lawyer working person like myself?****"

There's no money in that...............

 

[Chris]

I carry pistols and rifles on my scooter all the time.

Pistols get locked in the Givi box on the back, or under the seat (both have key locks)

The AR rides in a locked case in my custom rack. The Mosin just sits in the rack. I do slap a trigger lock on it so that it complies with the storage as well as the transport laws because as soon as you park, it becomes storage. I do usually put a cable lock to hold the case/rifle to the rack, but it isn't required by law. I just don't want any chance of them wandering off if some bonehead runs into me.

If you can lock the zipper closed, you have a locked container. Where you put it does not matter. It is advised to keep it out of your reach, so that you get in that habit for when you travel from state to state.

The easiest way to operate in MA is to always put everything in a case that has a lock on it. That way, for both storage and transport, you are covered.



Telepathically uploaded via Google implants.

 

[WallHack]

Do you have a RI carry permit?? If not, that cop cut you a HUUUUUUUUGGGGE break. He could have LEGITIMATELY busted you for some kind of felony charge for carrying without a permit.

FOPA does not apply to carrying. Only transporting.

Was just thinking the same thing. You're lucky you didn't end up prone on the pavement.

 

[frenchman]

That's a nice setup, but i don't have the storage in this:
View attachment 68370 View attachment 68371
It's a 1981 Shovelhead, the saddlebag has tools and old man stuff in it, no room for a range bag.

The only way this could be any sweeter, would be if it was a Pan. But Shovel is good enough. I got a boner for your Sissy bar, brother. Home made?

 

[Electric Eric]

The only way this could be any sweeter, would be if it was a Pan. But Shovel is good enough. I got a boner for your Sissy bar, brother. Home made?

Thanks, the sissy bar was an Ebay score about 8 years ago. It was made for a K Model Sportster, and came wrapped in newspaper from cincinnati, 1971.
The tank shift and foot clutch were 100% homemade except for the pedal. THAT took a bit to get used to.

 

[MisterHappy]

On a side note, a gun lock alone is not considered legal storage in Ma. So if you have a locked gun in an unlocked case it is still in violation.

This is incorrect - if by "gun lock" you mean a trigger or cable lock - that is acceptable for storage. Not for transport, though.

This is where it gets whacky - a free cable lock that you picked up at the local PD is ok to "secure" your AR at home, but you gotta lock it in a case to take it out to the range.

 

[dcmdon]

A slight clarification of what Mr. Happy said above. While he is 95% correct. The transport requirement (if you have a LTC-A) only applies to large capacity firearms. Non large capacity firearms do not need to be locked in any way during transport. At least according to the law you can lawfully drive down the road with an unloaded Joe Biden edition double barrel shotgun uncased in the seat next to you. I'm not saying it would be a good idea. But its the law.

The funny thing is that the same cops who think all guns not on your person need to be locked are the ones who think that a cable lock through the action of a gun is ok for transport.


Just to back up Mr. Happy with citations:

Transport:

(c) No person possessing a large capacity rifle or shotgun under a Class A or Class B license issued under section 131 or 131F shall possess the same in a vehicle unless such weapon is unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container.

Storage:

Section 131L. (a) It shall be unlawful to store or keep any firearm, rifle or shotgun including, but not limited to, large capacity weapons, or machine gun in any place unless such weapon is secured in a locked container or equipped with a tamper-resistant mechanical lock or other safety device, properly engaged so as to render such weapon inoperable by any person other than the owner or other lawfully authorized user. For purposes of this section, such weapon shall not be deemed stored or kept if carried by or under the control of the owner or other lawfully authorized user.

 

[Wrench75]

Do you have a RI carry permit?? If not, that cop cut you a HUUUUUUUUGGGGE break. He could have LEGITIMATELY busted you for some kind of felony charge for carrying without a permit.

FOPA does not apply to carrying. Only transporting.

Ri law allows someone with a ma ltc to carry on them in their vehicle as long as they don't intend to stop in the state. Not even to get gas. I was crossing through ri on the way to mendon ma. from fall river ma. I was doing nothing illegal by having it on my person in my vehicle.

Here is the legal stuff... NRA-ILA | Rhode Island

It is unlawful to carry a handgun on or about one’s person or in any vehicle or conveyance without a license to carry.

Exceptions to this prohibition are:

• A person in his dwelling house, place of business, or on land possessed by him.

• A person licensed to carry in another state, provided he is merely transporting the weapon through the state with no intent to detain himself or remain within Rhode Island.

• Law enforcement personnel.

• Military personnel when on duty.

continues.....

 

[Wrench75]

This is incorrect - if by "gun lock" you mean a trigger or cable lock - that is acceptable for storage. Not for transport, though.

This is where it gets whacky - a free cable lock that you picked up at the local PD is ok to "secure" your AR at home, but you gotta lock it in a case to take it out to the range.

Yup that is what I meant, for transport...

 

[WatchCityCPA]

Earlier this year the Ma SJC held a hearing to decide if they were going to uphold the Ma storage laws. Unfortunately they did. But one thing they did do was state that, soft cases like pistol bags and glass front display cases ARE considered legal storage as long as they are locked in some way.

As for transport. Throw the locked case in the bed of the truck. I do it all the time. I was stopped in Ri last year for a seat belt violation. The statie sees the case in my bed and asks, "Is there a gun in there?" I said "yes there is an sks in there, the case is locked and so is the gun." "He said but it is in your bed." I then informed him that it is only required to be locked down during transport, and that whenever I stop the truck, like to go in a store, I lock the case in the cab. Again he said "but it is in your bed" to which i replied. "Unless your worried about someone running by the truck at 65mph and grabbing it then I don't see the problem." He then asked if there were any other guns in the truck, I said "yes my carry piece is holstered on my hip and I had no intention of stopping in Ri until you put your lights on."

After that there were no more gun questions. Never asked to see my LTC. He went back to the car and came back with one of the two seat belt tickets I should have received. Then I was on my way. I always take my truck to the range and always throw my cases in the bed since I usually have a passenger coming to the range with me. I have never had a problem.

On a side note, a gun lock alone is not considered legal storage in Ma. So if you have a locked gun in an unlocked case it is still in violation.

+1. Great post, just allow me to clarify your statement in bold above:

A gun lock alone is enough for storage in your home. It is NOT enough for transportation, which requires a locked case or a locked trunk.

EDIT - I posted the above before seeing that the matter was already taken care of. Apologies for the unnecessary redundancy.

 

[frenchman]

Thanks, the sissy bar was an Ebay score about 8 years ago. It was made for a K Model Sportster, and came wrapped in newspaper from cincinnati, 1971.
The tank shift and foot clutch were 100% homemade except for the pedal. THAT took a bit to get used to.

Tank shift, springer, 21 incher, that's some ol school stuff right there. I love it. Beats the crap out of my twinky.

 

[DNTTexan]

A slight clarification of what Mr. Happy said above. While he is 95% correct. The transport requirement (if you have a LTC-A) only applies to large capacity firearms. Non large capacity firearms do not need to be locked in any way during transport. At least according to the law you can lawfully drive down the road with an unloaded Joe Biden edition double barrel shotgun uncased in the seat next to you. I'm not saying it would be a good idea. But its the law.

The funny thing is that the same cops who think all guns not on your person need to be locked are the ones who think that a cable lock through the action of a gun is ok for transport.


Just to back up Mr. Happy with citations:

Transport:

(c) No person possessing a large capacity rifle or shotgun under a Class A or Class B license issued under section 131 or 131F shall possess the same in a vehicle unless such weapon is unloaded and contained within the locked trunk of such vehicle or in a locked case or other secure container.

Storage:

Section 131L. (a) It shall be unlawful to store or keep any firearm, rifle or shotgun including, but not limited to, large capacity weapons, or machine gun in any place unless such weapon is secured in a locked container or equipped with a tamper-resistant mechanical lock or other safety device, properly engaged so as to render such weapon inoperable by any person other than the owner or other lawfully authorized user. For purposes of this section, such weapon shall not be deemed stored or kept if carried by or under the control of the owner or other lawfully authorized user.

It appears that the real kicker in this whole mess is the difference between "transport" and "storage" - that unloaded non-large-capacity long arm is ok unlocked while you transport it, but if you get out of the car it is "stored or kept" and must meet the storage requirements, which can be accommodated with a lock.

 

[dcmdon]

It appears that the real kicker in this whole mess is the difference between "transport" and "storage" - that unloaded non-large-capacity long arm is ok unlocked while you transport it, but if you get out of the car it is "stored or kept" and must meet the storage requirements, which can be accommodated with a lock.

Other than when I brought a gun with a lock to meet a buyer, I haven't used a lock since college. The gun goes from my safe to my gun bag to the range, and back. If I choose to stop for gas, I'm good with that. I'm confident it is transport and not storage. Again. I can't think of any reason to ever put a lock on a gun that isn't better satisfied by using a safe, locked gun bag or some other kind of container. As someone who shoots about once a week, I've taken this into consideration in my choice of vehicles. I own a sedan specifically because it allows me to much more safely secure firearms if I need to leave the car at some point. Although I generally try to avoid this.

Prior to kids, when I would go shooting in CT, I would simply put the unlocked gun bag on the back seat behind me. Once I had kids, the car seats take up that space.
When I hunt in CT, the gun gets stood up in the passenger seat foot well leaning agains the passenger seat. Uncased. That way I can blow warm air on the gun to make sure it is warm and dry on the ride home. (if you bring a cold gun inside condensation can form on it, causing rust)

Also. I'm a firme believer in the idea that a right unused is a right soon lost. So in CT there is no requirement for transport of long guns other than they must be unloaded. So I take advantage of that whenever I can.

 

[fstkmaro]

Earlier this year the Ma SJC held a hearing to decide if they were going to uphold the Ma storage laws. Unfortunately they did. But one thing they did do was state that, soft cases like pistol bags and glass front display cases ARE considered legal storage as long as they are locked in some way.

As for transport. Throw the locked case in the bed of the truck. I do it all the time. I was stopped in Ri last year for a seat belt violation. The statie sees the case in my bed and asks, "Is there a gun in there?" I said "yes there is an sks in there, the case is locked and so is the gun." "He said but it is in your bed." I then informed him that it is only required to be locked down during transport, and that whenever I stop the truck, like to go in a store, I lock the case in the cab. Again he said "but it is in your bed" to which i replied. "Unless your worried about someone running by the truck at 65mph and grabbing it then I don't see the problem." He then asked if there were any other guns in the truck, I said "yes my carry piece is holstered on my hip and I had no intention of stopping in Ri until you put your lights on."

After that there were no more gun questions. Never asked to see my LTC. He went back to the car and came back with one of the two seat belt tickets I should have received. Then I was on my way. I always take my truck to the range and always throw my cases in the bed since I usually have a passenger coming to the range with me. I have never had a problem.

On a side note, a gun lock alone is not considered legal storage in Ma. So if you have a locked gun in an unlocked case it is still in violation.

just got this :
All handguns, rifles and shotguns must be stored in a locked container or equipped with a tamper resistant mechanical lock or other safety device. Primitive firearms are exempt from this storage requirement.
from here:
http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/education/hed/hed_gun_laws.htm

is this not correct? a mechanical lock is not legal?

 

[fstkmaro]

Earlier this year the Ma SJC held a hearing to decide if they were going to uphold the Ma storage laws. Unfortunately they did. But one thing they did do was state that, soft cases like pistol bags and glass front display cases ARE considered legal storage as long as they are locked in some way.

As for transport. Throw the locked case in the bed of the truck. I do it all the time. I was stopped in Ri last year for a seat belt violation. The statie sees the case in my bed and asks, "Is there a gun in there?" I said "yes there is an sks in there, the case is locked and so is the gun." "He said but it is in your bed." I then informed him that it is only required to be locked down during transport, and that whenever I stop the truck, like to go in a store, I lock the case in the cab. Again he said "but it is in your bed" to which i replied. "Unless your worried about someone running by the truck at 65mph and grabbing it then I don't see the problem." He then asked if there were any other guns in the truck, I said "yes my carry piece is holstered on my hip and I had no intention of stopping in Ri until you put your lights on."

After that there were no more gun questions. Never asked to see my LTC. He went back to the car and came back with one of the two seat belt tickets I should have received. Then I was on my way. I always take my truck to the range and always throw my cases in the bed since I usually have a passenger coming to the range with me. I have never had a problem.

On a side note, a gun lock alone is not considered legal storage in Ma. So if you have a locked gun in an unlocked case it is still in violation.

just got this :
All handguns, rifles and shotguns must be stored in a locked container or equipped with a tamper resistant mechanical lock or other safety device. Primitive firearms are exempt from this storage requirement.
from here:
http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/education/hed/hed_gun_laws.htm

is this not correct? a mechanical lock is not legal?

 

[MisterHappy]

just got this :
All handguns, rifles and shotguns must be stored in a locked container or equipped with a tamper resistant mechanical lock or other safety device. Primitive firearms are exempt from this storage requirement.
from here:
http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dfw/education/hed/hed_gun_laws.htm

is this not correct? a mechanical lock is not legal?

A mechanical lock is fine for storage; is just has no use in transport.

 

[jaypap]

That's a nice setup, but i don't have the storage in this:
View attachment 68370 View attachment 68371
It's a 1981 Shovelhead, the saddlebag has tools and old man stuff in it, no room for a range bag.

+1 for a sweet springer.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

To add some perspective:

A case the gun owner lost: Gun in master bedroom. Defendant claimed he used the privacy lock every time he left the room to keep the gun secure. The court ruled against him.

A case the gun owner won: Glock locked in a plastic glock case with (I think) a cable lock and placed in a cooler. Court ruled that was a locked case.