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Pulled over

Now that I am back here in liberal land if I get pulled over in Mass or Rhode Island I keep my mouth shut unless my gun is not fully concealed. I actually moved my wallet to my left side so there would be no chance of exposing my gun when I went for my wallet while seated in a car.

I never carry a wallet anymore. I figured this out a long time ago. If you reach to get your wallet out, then it can be confused with drawing a weapon. It is no good for your back or posterior. You are better off keeping money in your pocket and your cards in a shirt pocket or such.

Bill
 
I've had contact with police oficers three times this year. The first was a trooper who stopped to check on me while I was pulled off the freeway with an overheated engine. The second was a police officer from a neighboring town who stopped me for speeding. The third was a police officer from my town who didn't like my left turn.

In all three situations I was carrying a handgun and so I informed the officers as soon as I could. In the first instance, it stopped being an issue after I told him it was on my hip. In the second, the cop also wanted to know where it was (again IWB) he then wrote me a ticket because I was going 52 in a 35 (this road is not residential and way underposted). He said he "had no choice to write me up" which I take it to mean that if I had been going slower I would have received a warning. The third time the cop asked for my CHL (first time any officer has wanted to see it), ran it through and came back and said have a nice day and drive carefully.

I notify when I am armed because that is the law here. I do not volunteer my CHL unless they ask for it, even if I am armed. Why? Because the law says I only have to present it on demand only. If they don't demand, I don't offer. I never tell the police that I have a CHL but that I am not armed. Why? Because I am not required to.

Remember boys and girls, a traffic stop IS legally an arrest. It may be temporary, but you are being detained, are not free to leave, and whatever you say can and will be used against you be it in traffic court or worse. Say what you must say according to law. Answer the cop's questions truthfully but without elaboration. Do not consent to searches. Do not answer stupid questions that are unrelated to the purpose of the stop (a traffic violation) like "I am going to find guns or drugs if I search your car?" If you do answer that one, answer with "am I free to go?" or "I do not consent to a search".

As soon as the documents related to the stop are returned to you, the stop is over. From then on, any questions from the police are fishing expeditions. If they have PC to search your car, they can and will search without your permission. The fact that they are asking or hinting about it usually means they cannot fully articulate probable cause to search so they are looking for you to give it to them. Refuse. If you are asked to step out of the car, take your keys and lock the vehicle.
 
I have several family members and close friends who are LEOs, and they all have advised me to say nothing unless asked specifically. I have been told that telling an officer at routine stop that you are carrying will likely turn the routine into what cops call a felony stop. If it does, He WILL draw down on you, he will then tell you to remove your keys from the ignition and drop them out the window, most likely he will have you open the door by reaching out the window to the outside handle, you will then pay homage to the pavement with your mouth (A.K.A. kiss the pavement). All of this because you told him something that by law, he didn't need to know. If you are lucky, and he is a generous 2A believing fella, he will not notify the Chief LEO in your community to have your LTC suspended/revoked.

Just my .02 based on what I've been told by my family/friends in the business

That is not my experience.

On more than one occasion, I've had to go to the trunk in order to provide "license and registration." While still behind the wheel, I've advised the PO of this and said "OK?" When he says yes, and before making a move, I've advised that I'm armed, that before I exit he should take up a position where he is comfortable, and that when he's done so I'll retrieve the documents and get back behind the wheel. On all occasions, the POs have said "OK" with no excitement, rancor, or excessive reactions.

In fact, the only downside of all of this that I've experienced is that, after the formalities are done, it has led to conversations along the line of "What are you carrying?" "You like it?" "What do you think of my [whatever]?" (a question I feel compelled to answer). As a result, the stop ends up taking longer than it might otherwise have taken.

In short, it is not my experience that all POs will freak out when being informed that a stopped vehicle operator is armed. Does this mean that none will? No; POs (like everyone else) run the spectrum of personality. But my bottom line rule is: I don't want a PO making a traffic stop to learn (or suspect) that I'm armed on his own; if that is likely to happen, I want to have told him first.

I suppose this is the place to reveal that, in general, how a PO responds to a stopped operator on any level depends on the "R" scale. This ranges from "R-0" (shitbird) to "R-9" (OK person) and is determined on the basis of: how the person is dressed, whether he is driving a POS or relatively new, clean, maintained vehicle, what he was doing to warrant the stop, and the like -- and, of course, how many pages in the BOP when the OL is run. The "R" scale may not be sanctioned, and it something of which I suspect the ACLU would not approve, but it is a human fact of life.
 
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Remember boys and girls, a traffic stop IS legally an arrest.

If what you are saying was true, then every motorist stopped would have an arrest record regardless of the outcome of the stop, correct?

The following is from Wikipedia and presents a different view:

(I would like to have some of our resident lawyers and LE chime in on this.)

A traffic stop is a temporary detention of a driver of a vehicle by police to investigate a possible crime. In constitutional law in the United States, a traffic stop is considered to be a subset of the Terry stop; the Terry standard for temporary detentions requires only reasonable suspicion that a crime has occurred or is about to occur.[1]

A stop is usually accomplished through a process known as "pulling over" the suspect's vehicle. Police vehicles (except those used by undercover personnel) traditionally have sirens, loudspeakers, and lightbars that rotate and/or flash. These devices are used by the officer to get the attention of the suspect and to signal that they are expected to move over to the shoulder and stop.

Depending upon the severity of the crime which the officer believes to have occurred, the officer may arrest the suspect, either by taking him or her to jail, or issuing a citation (also called a Notice to Appear). In some cases, officers may choose to simply issue a verbal or written warning.
 
A routine traffic stop is not an arrest. It probably isn't technically a Terry stop, though it has been analogized as such. It is more likely classified as a regulatory inspection.

"Where the police have observed a traffic violation, they are warranted in stopping a vehicle. See Commonwealth v. Cavanaugh, 366 Mass. 277, 278, 281 (1974); Commonwealth v. Hawkes, 362 Mass. 786, 788 (1973); Pennsylvania v. Mimms, 434 U.S. 106, 109 (1977). See also Commonwealth v. Tisserand, 5 Mass. App. Ct. 383, 384 (1977), where a traffic violation was accompanied by suspicious conduct. Similarly, investigation of the circumstances of an occupied vehicle parked in a high crime area in the middle of the night may be warranted. See Commonwealth v. Almeida, 373 Mass. 266, 271-272 (1977) (vehicle parked in a private parking space with its lights out and motor running); Adams v. Williams, 407 U.S. 143, 146 (1972) (police informed that occupant had narcotics and a concealed weapon). However, the police are prohibited under the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States from stopping a particular vehicle at random simply because they want to check the driver's license or the registration of the motor vehicle. See Delaware v. Prouse, 440 U.S. 648, 663 (1979). Likewise, a pedestrian may not be detained and required to identify himself when the police lack any reasonable suspicion to believe that that person was engaged or had engaged in criminal conduct. See Brown v. Texas, 443 U.S. 47, 52-53 (1979). "

Commonwealth v. Bacon, 381 Mass. 642, 644 (1980).

"Ordinary traffic stops, including those involving operators suspected of driving under the influence, have not been held to be custodial. See Berkemer v. McCarty, 468 U.S. at 437-439; Vanhouton v. Commonwealth, 424 Mass. 327, 331, 676 N.E.2d 460, cert. denied, 522 U.S. 834, 139 L. Ed. 2d 59, 118 S. Ct. 104 (1997); Commonwealth v. Cameron, 44 Mass. App. Ct. 912, 914, 689 N.E.2d 1365 (1998). The same is true for many Terry stops, where police "may detain [a] person briefly in order to 'investigate the circumstances that provoke suspicion.'" Berkemer v. McCarty, supra at 439, quoting from United States v. Brignoni-Ponce, 422 U.S. 873, 881, 45 L. Ed. 2d 607, 95 S. Ct. 2574 (1975). Moreover, the Court in Berkemer analogized traffic stops to the "comparatively nonthreatening character" of Terry stops and commented on "the absence of any suggestion in our opinions that Terry stops are subject to dictates of Miranda." Berkemer v. McCarty, supra at 440. Compare Commonwealth v. Gordon, 47 Mass. App. Ct. 825, 827, 716 N.E.2d 1036 (1999), quoting from United States v. Bautista, 684 F.2d 1286, 1291 (9th Cir. 1982), cert. denied, 459 U.S. 1211, 75 L. Ed. 2d 447, 103 S. Ct. 1206 (1983) ("Miranda warnings are necessary even during a Terry stop if the suspect has been taken into custody or if the questioning otherwise takes place in a police dominated or compelling atmosphere")."

Commonwealth v. LaFleur, 58 Mass. App. Ct. 546, 548 (2003).
 
"Depends on how good you are at searching" is probably not the thing to say.

Gary

Haha, probably not. I just said 'nope' and he said 'ok'. He didn't request a search, he just wanted to see my reaction, no doubt.

I was actually on my Honeymoon, and I was heading up to Canada, so I had disarmed myself just to be on the safe side of the law. The knives I carry tend to be illegal in a lot of places.
 
Being that I am not a lawyer, it is understandable that my characterization of a traffic stop as an arrest was not the best. It is still, however, a detention and you are the suspect so every thing else I said still goes.
 
Only if you've had the benifit of reading and thinking through these threads before (as I, and likely you, have). It's a good thing for people to be asking these questions on this board rather than regretting it later in front of a judge; better for them, and better for the shooting community as a whole (i.e. no bad press, reactionalry legislation, etc.)

I'm grateful lots of people answered my silly questions early on without judgement. When I joined this board, it was early on and many of the more straight forward questions hadn't been posted yet. These days, Heaven help the new guy who just came to the point in his life where he/she decided to start shooting and asked a question that had been discussed before. Given the search capabilities of this SW, I have a hard time finding threads I started!


Point taken, Matt. I was just trying to stir the pot a little due to the mall-ninja vibe I was getting from some of the posts you see on this subject. It seems many want to show-off their legal right to CCW and to show the LEO that they are one of the "good guys". CCW means CONCEALED and that includes traffic stops, again, unless the firearm might be seen. As for reposting information, I agree that this is an important topic, but would like to see some consistency with the moderation. I've posted stuff that is moderator dismissed with the dreaded "dupe" comment and resultant locked thread. I've also been admonished more than once to "do a search" on a subject already discussed that new members probably never will see. I guess if that's my worst complaint about NES, then this is a pretty good forum. (Rep point added for Matt)
 
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RKG, why the heck do you keep your DL and Reg in the trunk??

BAD thing to do, as anything that the officer sees there is now fair game for further query, and you opened that can of worms.

Otherwise, I agree with how you handled it. But with my DL in my pocket and Reg in the glove box, they aren't going to see anything that leads to "extra questions".

I never mind talking "technical" about guns, so a further delay to discuss the merits of one gun over another would never bother me.
 
your permit is for a "concealed" pistol.
the minute you volunteer that your carrying to someone your technically, though I'm sure not legally, in violation of that clause and dangerously close to unsuitability land even if it is a police officer. ( note I said volunteer)
unless your directly and specifically challenged by a LEO as to whether or not you are in posession of any weapons the answer imho is no.
what, where , and when you carry is something to keep between you and your god of choice and no one else.
 
By MGLs, your permit is NOT a "concealed" pistol permit at all. It is a "license to carry" (and/or possess)!

MGLs are "silent" on carrying concealed vs. carrying openly.

MCOPA, the media, and most LEOs are of the opinion that carrying openly is "improper" (at best) and thus makes someone "unsuitable". Therefore, defacto, we are forbidden from carrying openly except in very rare situations.
 
ill disagree on this one....

I think its a better idea to show your ltc when u get stopped. why? first of say for some reason, no matter how unlikely (when you reach for your wallet, if your asked to step out for some reason, etc) the cop sees your piece and you didnt say anything before hand? it will be an immediate shtf situation and wouldnt be fun. As for it being treated as a felony stop, face to the pavement just for showing your ltc? I think thats crazy and is a one in a million chance, which you could probably sue a department over. Why in the world would a cop treat you as a felon if your a legal carrieR? that just doesnt make sense. And being reported to your Chief and considered unsuitable? That doesnt make sense either. 9 out of 10 times the cop will just run your ltc and maybe take your gun during the stop. Another reason for showing your ltc, i know a lot of people will disagree with, but from the experience of those that i have talked to, very often if you get pulled over for a questionable speeding violation and show your ltc, then the cop is more concerned with running the ltc, etc than writing a speeding ticket, and your more likely to escape without the ticket....

just my opinion.
 
I think its a better idea to show your ltc when u get stopped. why? first of say for some reason, no matter how unlikely (when you reach for your wallet, if your asked to step out for some reason, etc) the cop sees your piece and you didnt say anything before hand? it will be an immediate shtf situation and wouldnt be fun. As for it being treated as a felony stop, face to the pavement just for showing your ltc? I think thats crazy and is a one in a million chance, which you could probably sue a department over. Why in the world would a cop treat you as a felon if your a legal carrieR? that just doesnt make sense. And being reported to your Chief and considered unsuitable? That doesnt make sense either. 9 out of 10 times the cop will just run your ltc and maybe take your gun during the stop. Another reason for showing your ltc, i know a lot of people will disagree with, but from the experience of those that i have talked to, very often if you get pulled over for a questionable speeding violation and show your ltc, then the cop is more concerned with running the ltc, etc than writing a speeding ticket, and your more likely to escape without the ticket....

just my opinion.

I can't agree with that. If the cop somehow sees your gun which is unlikely if you're concealing it well, as long as you're not reaching for it, or pulling it, I don't think he's going to shoot you. He might pull his gun, but all you have to do if the SHTF that bad is comply to exactly everything he says in a slow and deliberate manner, and you should be fine.

Telling a cop you're armed is like inviting the S to HTF, in my opinion.

If it's a non-issue...why would you tell him? A cop doesn't need to know I'm carrying my knife unless It's turning from a traffic stop into something else and he asks you out of the car...in which case, you know he's going to search you and you don't want him to find anything that might shock him. I don't carry a gun yet, but I think I would feel the same way.
 
By MGLs, your permit is NOT a "concealed" pistol permit at all. It is a "license to carry" (and/or possess)!

By the express terms of the document in question, it is a "License To Carry Firearms." There is nothing that says it only authorizes mere possession.

MGLs are "silent" on carrying concealed vs. carrying openly.

Not really.

Chapter 140, s. 131 is quite explicit on the subject. ONLY an LTC/A allows concealed carry (unless otherwise restricted).
 
By the express terms of the document in question, it is a "License To Carry Firearms." There is nothing that says it only authorizes mere possession.



Not really.

Chapter 140, s. 131 is quite explicit on the subject. ONLY an LTC/A allows concealed carry (unless otherwise restricted).

I understand that some towns allow hiking and camping under a sporting license, for example Freetown:

Sporting – Restricts possession to the purpose of lawful recreational shooting or competition; for use in the lawful pursuit of game animals and birds; for personal protection in the home; for the purpose of collecting (other than machine guns); and for outdoor recreational activities such as hiking, camping, cross country skiing, or similar activities. Includes travel to and from activity location.

and the Town of Goshen, which issues ALP writes this about diffrent municipalities:

http://www.egoshen.com/Police.html

"The licensing authority has the discretion to issue for any purpose he/she deems proper. That may include an unrestricted LTC issued for "All Lawful Purposes" or one with restrictions such as Target and Hunting, Sporting, Personal Protection, employment or any of a number of other restrictions. A violation can result in a $5000 fine plus loss of the LTC. The problem is that there are no statutory criteria for the imposed restrictions. As such, what "Sporting" means in one jurisdiction may have an entirely different meaning in another. Does it really mean just target and hunting? It does in some jurisdictions, while in other jurisdictions it includes hiking, camping and protection from rabid animals.


Can a person with a Target and Hunting or Sporting LTC defend themselves with a handgun in their home? Some Police Chiefs have said yes while others say no. This lack of clarity will likely cost an unsuspecting licensee a $5000 fine. "

Well, lets say I am hiking or camping in Mass where it is lawful to carry a firearm (Is there any such place). How do I carry the firearm with a license restricted to sporting?

With this type of ambiguity, how is it that the law has not yet been challenged and struck down?
 
I am sorry about the thread drift before, but I like everyone here suffer from the ambiguity of the law.

Personally, I wouldn't volunteer to the police officer that I have firearms locked in a case or in the back unless he asked. The only time I would provide information is if he asked for my drivers license and I had a firearm concealed carry. Once I would have to take my hands off the steering wheel, reaching about my pockets without telling the officer could be perceived as a threat if I accidently exposed the gun, and would likely result in a confrontation, and me being called unsuitable by the CLEO.
 
What he is saying is that the MGLs do not prohibit open carry therefore open carry is technically legal. If it is a good idea or not in Massachusetts is another discussion.

By the express terms of the document in question, it is a "License To Carry Firearms." There is nothing that says it only authorizes mere possession.



Not really.

Chapter 140, s. 131 is quite explicit on the subject. ONLY an LTC/A allows concealed carry (unless otherwise restricted).
 
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Scriv,

Please let's not pick nits in a way that only confuses those that asked the questions, OK?

Reason I chose the words I did was that some towns issue with a restriction of "no concealed carry". Thus, in a case like this their LTC-A is merely a license to possess.

No words in MGLs expressly prohibit open carry, but almost everyone agrees that this is not "accepted practice" and many chiefs will declare you unsuitable if they get a report that you are carrying openly. Exceptions are likely in your own home, at a gun club, perhaps hunting, perhaps in a business that you own. But open carry is just looking for trouble generally in MA.
 
wrt the idea of handing over a LTC since you are reaching for your wallet, I respectfully disagree.

I was stopped for speeding on Rte. 3N in Boston one early Sunday morning by a very nasty motorcycle cop who was in a cruiser. I was CCW'g in a cheap ($10 gun show special) IWB holster, covered with a sports jacket. Boston PO was on driver's side, no way he could see any gun on my right hip and I served up my DL and reg w/o exposing the gun or telling him anything. He was so nasty that it's almost a certainty that had I said anything it would have been a felony stop eating asphalt in the right lane of Rte. 3. No thank you!!

One other time in Newton, also carrying the same way. No mention, no exposure and I was on my way in a few minutes.
 
I'm not trying to say that isn't what you heard, but it is going to depend on the officer. Being pulled out of your vehicle a la felony stop seems WAY extreme to me for having a valid LTC. If you hand your LTC and license to an officer, 1 Ican't see a felony stop happening every time... maybe with some officers, but certainly not all. Keep both hands at 10 and 2 on the wheel unless instructed to do otherwise.

As for him contacting the chief to have your LTC revoked, quite doubtful. 2 As I write this I almost want to say whoever told you this is pulling your leg a bit. Why would they try to revoke your legal right to carry a firearm? You haven't done anything wrong. I mean, I'm sure it couldhappen, but your post makes it out like a felony stop with LTC revocation is common place.

1. I never said this would happen every time, I do however believe it is possible depending on the officer. I know a lot of cops and their personalities like everyone else run the gambit from Wako moonbat all the ay to one of us. Also lets not forget a lot of them took their job because of the benefits (job security, pension, etc.) and are not overly comfortable doing it.

2. Don't be too surprised, I have a friend who has since moved to a free state, who while assisting a victim at a traffic accident (he was an EMT and stopped off duty) had his jacket ride up in the back. An LEO on the scene, after everything had been settled asked if he had a LTC, and had him stand by while he checked it out. Several days later he was contacted by his issuing chief who had received a letter from the LEO. He went in to see the chief and give his side of the story, the chief told him that he would normally suspend someone's LTC for this type of "offense" but was letting him off with a warning because of the situation (him helping at an accident). The city was Fall River, and this was several years ago. They have since changed chiefs.

Take it for what it's worth, but I'm not volunteering anything to anybody.
 
Scriv,

Please let's not pick nits in a way that only confuses those that asked the questions, OK?

It wasn't my post that was the cause of confusion.....[rolleyes]

[The] Reason I chose the words I did was that some towns issue with a restriction of "no concealed carry". Thus, in a case like this their LTC-A is merely a license to possess.

A situation my post specifically addressed while yours, inappropriate quotation marks included, misstated. Further, local policy is hardly the Mass. Gen. Laws.

As you now admit, "No words in MGLs expressly prohibit open carry," but they DO expressly prohibit concealed carry for any license other than an LTC/A. Your post did not state the law correctly and your ex post facto rationalization does little better. It is your continued practice of stating some licensing practices as law which is confusing.
 
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I carry my LTC behind my DL and it's a clear window on my wallet. I don't know if the LEO's ever notice or not (I don't say anything) but I got a verbal warning by Norfolk PD doing 48 in a 25 a couple years ago and recently a written warning by MA SP for doing 82 in a 55 (the warning says 65, but the officer said I was going 82).

The Norfolk PO said they'd been getting alot of complaints of speeding, so he may have been just letting people know to slow down and not writing tickets. The statie perhaps since I was on my way to church decided to leave my record clean. (he asked where I was going, how long i lived here, if I knew what the speed limit was, why I was going so fast, when was my last ticket etc.)

If I were carrying I would have informed the LEO but only because the only place I can comfortably carry is 5 o'clock and I can't lean forward without printing. There is no way I could retrieve my registration if the officer were paying attention. My only other option would be to get the registration out before he gets to the window.

When an officer runs your license can he/she see written warnings or just actual tickets?
 
...just tickets

i did a ride along with a state trooper and he told me he only gives written warnings not verbal. said that a written warning is the same as a verbal to the citizen, however it shows his superiors that he is working. nothing goes on your record for it.
 
RKG, why the heck do you keep your DL and Reg in the trunk??

BAD thing to do, as anything that the officer sees there is now fair game for further query, and you opened that can of worms.

Otherwise, I agree with how you handled it. But with my DL in my pocket and Reg in the glove box, they aren't going to see anything that leads to "extra questions".

I never mind talking "technical" about guns, so a further delay to discuss the merits of one gun over another would never bother me.

1. It's not that they're "kept" there. I have what amounts to a second "wallet" for documents (which are far too many for the small one in my pocket). This is moved from its usual location forward to a "go bag" for certain operations, and the incidents in question were responding to or returning from same.

2. Discussion: agreed unless you're in a hurry or on a mission.
 
your permit is for a "concealed" pistol.
the minute you volunteer that your carrying to someone your technically, though I'm sure not legally, in violation of that clause and dangerously close to unsuitability land even if it is a police officer. ( note I said volunteer)
unless your directly and specifically challenged by a LEO as to whether or not you are in posession of any weapons the answer imho is no.
what, where , and when you carry is something to keep between you and your god of choice and no one else.

1. Not so in Massachusetts. LTC is for "carrying," without distinction between concealed carry and any other carry.

2. And even if it made a difference, "concealed" has to do with "visible," not "disclosed."
 
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