PSA: iS It pRe HEaLY?

[Astronut16]

I won't hug it out, but you might have a future on NES. Get through the rough edges and the abuse you will take and the forum can be pure gold. It is definitely one of my favorite sports to splatter noobs on the pavement when they, well, act like noobs.

Welcome to NES!

Fair enough, I don't want your 'rona.... Yeah, I know I'm going to get my teeth kicked in from time to time, but I hope that happens when I do something dumb and not try to become a savvy owner who helps the situation instead of being a poster boy for why Maura deserves a crown and cape.

 

[TPNES]

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[SKumar]

FFLs selling a stripped lower are not at risk of the Healy edict - it's not a firearm. But joe schmoe taking that lower and building it up? He will be dead meat if caught. At least with a pre-Healy lower you have a case that it was owned all along. Or a document that says so. Take one manufactured last year you have absolutely no defense.

Why dead meat? Healey does nothing in the books. One can legally buy and possess a stripped lower (regardless of date) and build it within compliance with no repercussion whatsoever. A stripped lower is not a firearm and not subject to any AWB. Build it into a complete rifle and only then it's subject to compliance.

 

[PappyM3]

FFLs hold more or all liability over individuals with the "may issue" sitch.

Crackpot sums it up nicely here.

FFLs hold liability in the sense that they could easily get shut down and lose their business. But they don’t hold criminal liability for selling lowers. But high prices for lowers is all part of the calculations with the risk of getting shut down.

 

[Astronut16]

Why dead meat? Healey does nothing in the books. One can legally buy and possess a stripped lower (regardless of date) and build it within compliance with no repercussion whatsoever. A stripped lower is not a firearm and not subject to any AWB. Build it into a complete rifle and only then it's subject to compliance.

Kind of what I'm getting at, but then it becomes "compliance with the literal meaning of the AWB" or "compliance with the possession aspect of the Notice" and then leads to "how do they know how my rifle is configured without either a legal or illegal search?" I just wouldn't put it past her to get warrants based on the registrations if they really wanted to do a sweep and prosecute what turns up, and I'm trying to figure out if you can not leave them any more bread crumbs than possible and then rely on your right to privacy and the law for the rest. The question is, would a judge ever give a warrant to search my property based on what I have registered with the state?


Edit- I fully understand the law and the judiciary's interpretation/application of it is as reliable as a rusty old hi-point in this state, but it is what it is unless you just don't care to follow it, and I'd like to say I follow it. Her enforcement notice is not subject to my desire to follow the law as it is not law, that much is clear. If there are volumes of case law that support an Anderson AM-15 or similar sporting rifles not being a "duplicate or copy" of a Colt AR-15 as it was produced at the time of the '94 ban then I feel confident I am on the right side of the law and the rest is fate, and I'll have to do some research in that regard (point me in a direction if you know it). I just don't want to make it any easier on them to know what law abiding private property I may own that they might use against me than I have to should they chose to operate outside the defined laws of Massachusetts and the case law that further supports the long understood interpretation of "copy or duplicate". To me that whole stance is bullshit as I've owned many cars that share multiple components, even entire engines, but their names and registrations are not interchangeable. To me her enforcement notice is a scare tactic to cover up for a glaring gap in their law that they created when they were overly specific about models and features, and it's something that the letter of the law as it exists does not support. I'm not concerned with being illegal, but there must be some concern with being victimized, because that seems to be the primary risk involved, however unlikely as it provides the very vehicle to tear the whole notice down, and she knows damn well if that happens FFLs are selling complete rifles as soon as they can get them shipped to their stores.

 

[67ray]

You say "dead meat". Please reference ANY case of a successful prosecution under the Healey press conference. The purpose of the press conference was fear, uncertainty and doubt. You are perpetuating fear with your post. We have no evidence of "dead meat" so let's not help Healey in her mission by perpetuating the fear she released.

Why dead meat? Healey does nothing in the books. One can legally buy and possess a stripped lower (regardless of date) and build it within compliance with no repercussion whatsoever. A stripped lower is not a firearm and not subject to any AWB. Build it into a complete rifle and only then it's subject to compliance.

I didn't say what I meant by dead meat. The focus is not and should not be what NESers overexamine in rule of law and MGL - armchair quarterbacks. It is your life when you get arrested with an alleged illegal firearm. All too often people on this site take hypothetical (or real) cases and claim "See? No problem just look at blah blah blah". But have you ever been in a court case? Have you been the defendant against the Commonwealth in a firearms charge? Even if you win, you will lose. Money, lots of it. Publicity, possibly job, background checks turning up history no matter whether you were not convicted. Friends and acquaintances. And of course, your time.

Judges are just that - they judge based on the evidence. It's easy to find miscarriages of justice and bad decisions. You want to be the hero that does that? Go right ahead. Even GOAL can't find a willing plaintiff for cases that look cut-and-dried.

I'm not spreading fear. I'm offering a perspective that you may or may not agree with. But have you been charged criminally with a firearms charge? If not, then maybe you want to talk to someone who has.

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[DW357]

ETA: I find it amusing that you're trying to "hang your hat" on something on MA gun law, I could write a 3 page long post about how something could go horribly wrong with a whole bunch of
commonly accepted interpretations of MA gun law, but I won't. Absolutely nothing is certain in this state, other than death and taxes, basically.

So I just want to make sure my understanding is correct here as it pertains to lowers and Healey and this seems like the thread to do it... If I buy a recently manufactured stripped lower from an FFL it is not actually a firearm per the definition in MA state law. Once I furnish said lower and combine it with an upper into a functional rifle then it is a firearm. At that point what is it I've got to hang my hat on legally? That an Anderson AM-15 not a carbon copy duplicate of the Colt AR-15 with it's factory flash suppressor and bayonet lug and doesn't otherwise have 2+ evil features, thereby making it not an assault weapon per the law if taken literally? Regardless, her definition of what constitutes a copy as defined in her grand old day at the podium I recognize is not law, but says how she would act based on her "interpretation" , which basically leaves me vulnerable to unjust prosecution and potential abortion of law at the hands of a judge who doesn't believe in the letter of the law? And that's all provided I either do some dumb shit that causes my rifle to be evaluated by law enforcement or they just decide to go after anyone doing this based on registrations/transfers? Will there be anything in the FA-10 that would give away the configuration outside of "it's a 5.56 rifle" that could cause future scrutiny? I'm a bit new to all of this but not a moron, I just want to understand where I/we stand if we do new lower builds in MA.

As Drgrant has said, nothing in this state is certain. Just check out the fixed mag/AWB case in Dedham from last year:

AWB violation overturned in Dedham

View: https://www.facebook.com/191888234727489/posts/369181350331509/ This case is a huge facepalm.

www.northeastshooters.com

The guy won but it cost him a lot of money in legal fees - which was paid/covered by JC Arms.

 

[Astronut16]

In the age of go-fund-me activism, I bet just about anybody who found themselves targeted could get their defense funded in very short order by 2A supporters across the country, not that it still wouldn't throw your life into a wood chipper anyway. Props to JC Arms for standing with their customer and our rights on that case. I wonder if someone won if they'd have the option to then take a civil case out against the state and be compensated due to wrongful prosecution?

 

[drgrant]

In the age of go-fund-me activism, I bet just about anybody who found themselves targeted could get their defense funded in very short order by 2A supporters across the country, not that it still wouldn't throw your life into a wood chipper anyway. Props to JC Arms for standing with their customer and our rights on that case. I wonder if someone won if they'd have the option to then take a civil case out against the state and be compensated due to wrongful prosecution?

The problem with civil suits is you have to have an end game in mind, and unless you've got an ambulance chaster interested in y our lawsuit, you're going to have to front the money to
run it. Things like USC 1983 (civil rights) suits are not simple, either, otherwise pro RKBA groups would be firing off a metric ton of them.

In the example you mentioned, things like "wrongful prosecution" are hard to hoe, because more often than not the courts suck for the garbage that the state acted in good faith, blah blah
blah, so wah lah, etc. Normally the bar to prove that the state acted maliciously is pretty high, sadly.

 

[E.Stoner]

Fair enough, I don't want your 'rona.... Yeah, I know I'm going to get my teeth kicked in from time to time, but I hope that happens when I do something dumb and not try to become a savvy owner who helps the situation instead of being a poster boy for why Maura deserves a crown and cape.

Welcome to Masslandia and the NES Thunderdome.
I recommend going green and embracing the shit-posting and ballbusting. It's basically what makes life worth living in this shit hole and is a fundamental staple of the firearms community.

 

[drgrant]

From what I heard - I may be totally wrong here - Somehow Norwood Police (???) came across someone with a JC Arms fixed mag lower and proceeded to prove that the mag was not fixed by trying to rip the mag out and ended up rendering the lower inoperable. Somehow it gets to Healey's desk and she decides to bring JC Arms to court for violating the AWB regarding AR pistols. Long story short, the judge ruled the lower did not violate standing law regarding AR Pistols and the AWB and the case got tossed. Of course, you would have to dig for that ruling because the media didn't report on it.

What this ruling also says to me is that, by adding a fixed mag to a lower, you are manufacturing a NEW firearm - which is why according to standing MA AWD law, you cannot fix a preban 30 rounder to a lower ... so if this is a new firearm, then it is a "POST" Healey ban firearm ... and guess what JC Arms or the original victim with the lower was never brought to court over - even though Healey had every ability to do so - that's right - possessing and/or manufacturing and selling POST Healey ban lowers. Again, all bullshit.

There's one part of your story you have wrong... Healey isn't the one who brought that case to court... that was a local DA job. And the person charged was not charged based on her edict, but the actual AWB. . If that wasn't a fixed mag gun, it would have triggered the "50 ounce problem". Ironically however the defense used her edict in support of the fixed mag option, somehow... but it is unclear if that actually mattered or not.

 

[76Too]

This thread turned into a shitshow fast

Yup...started with the first post. I'd say that must be some kind of a record, but it's been done before. Many. Times. Daily.

 

[Da_lucche]

There's one part of your story you have wrong... Healey isn't the one who brought that case to court... that was a local DA job. And the person charged was not charged based on her edict, but the actual AWB. . If that wasn't a fixed mag gun, it would have triggered the "50 ounce problem". Ironically however the defense used her edict in support of the fixed mag option, somehow... but it is unclear if that actually mattered or not.

I knew he was charged under the actual AWB regarding AR Pistols ... I was misinformed about who brought the charges up against him though.

lol funny how the defense used her edict in support rather than the prosecutor using it to pile on charges --- not surprising though ... they don't want to test the waters with that one.

 

[Mountain]

Wow...

Where to begin. I'm not a millennial. A bit older than that. I've spent my entire career saving lives as an RN and my "antifa" girlfriend is actually a doctor who also spends her career helping people. I'm a staunch believer in the LAW and our RIGHTS. I also am not stupid enough to not understand how those things get weaponized. My feelings aren't hurt, I'm just all set dealing with c***s like you who have time to act like a f***boy but don't have time to answer some simple questions, the answers to which are scattered all over. In short, go f*** yourself.

Here's my practice, hopefully to make the issue more simple and less obtuse:

Obtain a lower however possible and ignore the pre-Heil Healy stuff. Follow the law as written:

From any willing FFL you will purchase a lower and complete your portion of the 4473. Build via the requirements of the original AWB, limiting the evil features per law. Register your high capacity rifle (seller portion blank) via EFA10 within 7 days of completion. Enjoy and sleep well, knowing you have followed the law.

It's that simple. Following any advice to ignore laws is a fool's errand with potentially life F-ing consequences. Vacillating over what more you should do and asking the related questions has value approaching zero and is subject to opinion not fact. Opinions are the super-food of internet dumpster fires in case you hadn't noticed.

 

[TPNES]

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[Astronut16]

The problem with civil suits is you have to have an end game in mind, and unless you've got an ambulance chaster interested in y our lawsuit, you're going to have to front the money to
run it. Things like USC 1983 (civil rights) suits are not simple, either, otherwise pro RKBA groups would be firing off a metric ton of them.

In the example you mentioned, things like "wrongful prosecution" are hard to hoe, because more often than not the courts suck for the garbage that the state acted in good faith, blah blah
blah, so wah lah, etc. Normally the bar to prove that the state acted maliciously is pretty high, sadly.

I was more thinking their criminal defense being funded since even that would be brutal even if you win.

 

[btnh6668]

who doesn't love NES threads filled with people who love to tell you that you can buy something cheaper "somewhere else" while never telling you who that "someone" is. Insightful as always. Seems par for the course around here.

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Congrats for wading through the ball busting. NES used to be a tremendous resource in that when a basic question was asked you'd get a bunch of quality, insightful answers with a light dusting of bullshit but that ratio has reversed (it's an internet wide phenomenon, not just here). It's still a good place if you stick around, guys like Crackpot are a throwback to the good old days and you should seek out his answers if given in any thread.

Now, I expect to see you posting in the 'Show me your AR-15' thread soon so get cracking!

I was more thinking their criminal defense being funded since even that would be brutal even if you win.

 

[Astronut16]

Congrats for wading through the ball busting. NES used to be a tremendous resource in that when a basic question was asked you'd get a bunch of quality, insightful answers with a light dusting of bullshit but that ratio has reversed (it's an internet wide phenomenon, not just here). It's still a good place if you stick around, guys like Crackpot are a throwback to the good old days and you should seek out his answers if given in any thread.

Now, I expect to see you posting in the 'Show me your AR-15' thread soon so get cracking!

perhaps the hypotheticals today weren't so hypothetical... I appreciate everyone's time and feedback, even if it was layered in misapplied manbun hate at times. I get it, and I harbor no real issue. I can tell who the experienced ones are even if they're gruff. I just wanted to tackle all of the thoughts in my head and feel more confident and secure going forward according to the laws in our state, like I said earlier I feel the rest is noise, but noise can hurt you, however so can silence and I know where I stand.

 

[TPNES]

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[joe1231913]

Once the sole remaining charge in my customers case is done with the appeal process, I will write something up with my attorney so everyone can understand what happened.

 

[bloodforblood556]

Really wish I read this thread before returning a lower due to my ignorance on the law and the whole edict holding water.

 

[TPNES]

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[Grendizer138]

I just bought an “over-priced” BCM lower from the Mill and I’m going to EFA-10 it.

I try in good faith to be compliant with actual MGL. I do wish the pinned stocks would stop breaking on my rifles though.

There. That ought to get me disinvited to everyone’s respective birthday parties.

 

[The5thDentist]

Fortunately TPNES has what you need.

After reading this thread, I need to get back out to see you guys.

 

[bloodforblood556]

I just bought an “over-priced” BCM lower from the Mill and I’m going to EFA-10 it.

I try in good faith to be compliant with actual MGL. I do wish the pinned stocks would stop breaking on my rifles though.

There. That ought to get me disinvited to everyone’s respective birthday parties.

The EFA-10 was the big thing for me. I had heard people say you could register it, but didn’t actually see anyone say they did first hand. The couple people on this thread who said they’ve registered several and no issues is what made me realize the error of my thought process.

 

[bloodforblood556]

Fortunately TPNES has what you need.

I’ll have to reach out when I have a little extra cash to come grab another one.

 

[Lxpony]

Yea. I've efa10d a lot since Healy and her BS and I'm not in jail yet

 

[babygorilla]

Yea. I've efa10d a lot since Healy and her BS and I'm not in jail yet

Same same....

 

[bloodforblood556]

Yea. I've efa10d a lot since Healy and her BS and I'm not in jail yet

It was really your contributions to the thread that really secured it for me. So thank you.