Problem Shooters

[Deleted member 12999]

Looking for any fresh ideas... as I'm getting frustrated.

As an instructor of adults, my philosophy has always been to give the shooter drills and experiences so that they can feel their mistakes (thus making them consciously incompetent vs. unconsciously). There are certain things that all you can do it point out the issue, and it's on them to be mindful of it and correct it. Two things I'm having difficulty getting people to retain:

1. Trigger pull straight to the rear, and holding a flat follow through. (looking for any experience or drills that have worked for you?)
2. Flinching. (my latest idea to try follows)

I have used the 'ball and dummy' drill for flinching, but the more I think about it, it's not doing anything to instill good habits. It's just highlighting a bad one. I decided to switch it up, although I haven't gotten to test it out on the range with my worst shooter yet. Instead of loading a full mag, and having one snap cap; I'm going to load entire mag of snap caps. As we run through a few magazines of dry fire (always assuming gun is live of course), I'll toss in a single live round. We'll then do a couple like that, and if flinching is easing up, slowly build up to full magazines again with just one snap cap.

Thoughts?

 

[jibbr71]

That's not a bad idea. You can build trigger control, at the same time building muscle memory for malfunction clearing....all the while not knowing if the gun is gonna go bang.


Sent from my phone....which isn't really a phone anymore, it's a computer on my pocket

 

[Deleted member 12999]

That's not a bad idea. You can build trigger control, at the same time building muscle memory for malfunction clearing....all the while not knowing if the gun is gonna go bang.


Sent from my phone....which isn't really a phone anymore, it's a computer on my pocket

I didn't even think about malfunction aspect of it. Secondary benefit.

 

[fencer]

The two things that really improved my trigger pull were:

1. spend a couple of weeks dry firing an empty double action revolver at the tv. ( That tip was from Adam at Acme Armament)

2 Using the same double action revolver ( 686 ) try to balance a penny or a dime at the end of the barrel and dry fire.

It might sound crazy but it worked for me.

 

[Evadd]

The two things that really improved my trigger pull were:

1. spend a couple of weeks dry firing an empty double action revolver at the tv.

Plus, if you pick the right show, you get the added enjoyment of pretending to shoot someone you dislike.

 

[bill o]

The best insight I've read on the topic of trigger control is in Ben Stegger's Practical Pistol Fundamentals, specifically Chris Bartolo's chapter.

I wouldn't ever do the ball and dummy drills. If the shooter has good follow through, he will noticeably push the gun forward and down after the hammer drops. I don't think the instructor or the student is really able to tell for sure if it was a pre-ignition flinch (bad) or a post-ignition push (good). It's only a matter of a few hundredths of a second difference.

 

[Deleted member 12999]

The best insight I've read on the topic of trigger control is in Ben Stegger's Practical Pistol Fundamentals, specifically Chris Bartolo's chapter.

I wouldn't ever do the ball and dummy drills. If the shooter has good follow through, he will noticeably push the gun forward and down after the hammer drops. I don't think the instructor or the student is really able to tell for sure if it was a pre-ignition flinch (bad) or a post-ignition push (good). It's only a matter of a few hundredths of a second difference.

I'd have to be dealing with shooters in the same zip code as 'good'



I'll see if I can get hands on book. Thank you.

 

[warwickben]

You can always use me as a test subject .

 

[Deleted member 12999]

You can always use me as a test subject .

Come out my way. Free ammo and you can bring your Frankenguns

 

[Glockster30]

The best insight I've read on the topic of trigger control is in Ben Stegger's Practical Pistol Fundamentals, specifically Chris Bartolo's chapter.

I wouldn't ever do the ball and dummy drills. If the shooter has good follow through, he will noticeably push the gun forward and down after the hammer drops. I don't think the instructor or the student is really able to tell for sure if it was a pre-ignition flinch (bad) or a post-ignition push (good). It's only a matter of a few hundredths of a second difference.

FIFY - Ben Stoeger is the author.

 

[MrAl]

I've done several things for flinch after switching between P220 and P226.

1.) Whenever I go shooting with a new shooter, I have them shoot at a small target within 5 yards. If they can't hit the dead center, pull the trigger half as fast. If they still don't hit the center, go even slower. Sometimes the shooter is using a their brand new gun and the trigger has a little creep in it. Other times, the shooter is anticipating the shot. Do this for 2-3 magazines until ALL the shots are in a very tight group. This teaches the "slow is smooth" muscle memory, and removes the frustration of missing everything.

2.) Instead of the traditional ball and dummy, when I'm hitting low, I insert snap caps in all my mags for drills where I'm not too concerned about time. If my sights drop a lot, I immediately unload the gun, and do 10 perfect dry fires. This will have to be self disciplined, as it's hard to look over someones' shoulder and enforce. This teaches me "you better follow through or you're not getting a score for this drill".

3.) As far as follow through, when I find myself getting sloppy, I count out loud the sight pictures. (okay, I need to be alone for this, else I whisper it to myself) 2 head shots, count 1-2-3 - NOT the shots. A little different approach, but changes the focus a bit.

4.) I've done the penny on the sights drill for my DA trigger pull for dry fire.

 

[KMM696]

You could try the Wall Drill to work on trigger pull straight back. Since there's nothing to focus on except the front sight, it's easy to see when an improper pull disturbs it's alignment.

 

[floriduh]

1. Trigger pull straight to the rear, and holding a flat follow through. (looking for any experience or drills that have worked for you?)
2. Flinching. (my latest idea to try follows)


Thoughts?

Personally, although you have gotten good advice, not much of it is really a "fresh idea."

Check this article out You Can Be Reached: Developing Good Trigger Control -- you will gain some insight, and a fresh idea or two to put in your tool box.

I like the drill in that article with the AR-15 magazine, it has helped me a lot with my trigger control issues.

Trigger control is 99% mental and 1% physical, it is the most important/difficult pistol fundamental to master -- but it is all in the head.

For new pistol shooters I like to have them start of shooting my .357 revolver, and then give them a .22 semi-auto.

Works for them.

Good luck, let us know how the AR-15 drill works for you.

 

[Chuck Would]

You could try the Wall Drill to work on trigger pull straight back. Since there's nothing to focus on except the front sight, it's easy to see when an improper pull disturbs it's alignment.

Wall Drills. Do them 10 minutes a day. In a week, if you do them correctly, your trigger control will get better. One Hole Drills are also excellent.

Find/buy a DAO with an aweful trigger. I suggest a Kel Tec. Any caliber but 9MM or .40 work well. Have them TRY to hit the black with that trigger. Once they do that for an hour or so, ANY trigger will be much easier.

 

[*chris*]

In a word, I think you are progressing them too fast through the calibers.

When I take new shooters to the range, we start with a 617 - 22 revolver with 6" barrel. Absolutely no recoil at all so they can focus on trigger discipline. Once they are comfortable with shooting it and have reasonable groups at 20 feet or so we will progress to a 38 special wadcutter. Once that is mastered we go to 45 acp or 357 mag. If I start to see finch induced shooting, they are not ready for the caliber and recoil yet. Some shooters on the first day just can't handle the recoil of the 45 ACP or 357 Mag on the first outing and you need to treat them as such.

I don't like semi-autos at first to introduce new shooters as there is too much going on IMO.

Chris

 

[Another_David]

The two things that really improved my trigger pull were:

1. spend a couple of weeks dry firing an empty double action revolver at the tv. ( That tip was from Adam at Acme Armament)

2 Using the same double action revolver ( 686 ) try to balance a penny or a dime at the end of the barrel and dry fire.

It might sound crazy but it worked for me.

exactly this on both counts.

 

[slap shot]

The two things that really improved my trigger pull were:

1. spend a couple of weeks dry firing an empty double action revolver at the tv. ( That tip was from Adam at Acme Armament)

2 Using the same double action revolver ( 686 ) try to balance a penny or a dime at the end of the barrel and dry fire.

It might sound crazy but it worked for me.

After the penny try balancing an empty shell casing.

 

[Supermoto]

flinching is a mental response. A fear of recoil or noise. No mechanical drill will fix it until the shooter decides to stop being a pussy

 

[ColdDayInHell]

flinching is a mental response. A fear of recoil or noise. No mechanical drill will fix it until the shooter decides to stop being a pussy

+1

 

[Deleted member 12999]

flinching is a mental response. A fear of recoil or noise. No mechanical drill will fix it until the shooter decides to stop being a pussy

Haha. I've said that, and was counseled.

 

[fencer]

flinching is a mental response. A fear of recoil or noise. No mechanical drill will fix it until the shooter decides to stop being a pussy

Agreed, but flinching was not my problem.

I was jerking the trigger like a 16 year old with Cinemax. Every shot was low and left. The groups were tight but i was just a yankin on the trigger. Then I read Adam's post and thought, "what the hell, its worth a shot, and it's free"
So for about 2 weeks, I relinquished the remote to my wife and dry fired and surfed NES, with my 4" - 686. I didn't actually drop the hammer all that often, but with practice I could really work that double action trigger.

The other thing it taught me was that even though I am a pretty strong guy, holding a 3 lbs firearm straight out for extended periods of time, kicked my ass. Especially with my weak hand. So I worked on that too.

 

[floriduh]

Agreed, but flinching was not my problem.

I was jerking the trigger.

No offense, but I think you missed the point. Flinching, jerking, slapping, yanking the trigger is a trigger control problem/issue - and all mental.

I think the drills you did to overcome it were good, it worked so that is all that matters.

The fact that you could group it means you had a good case of the bad shots But your finger isn't really to blame.

Your brain knows the gun's about to go off, produce recoil, noise, and smoke -- and as a result your mind subconsciously 'develops issues' to overcome/compensate that.

Studies have been done that show the brain 'shuts down' for a fraction of a second when the gun fires. I don't know if I can find a link, but I'll look.

It's all in your mind.

 

[fencer]

No offense taken, but in my case it was just that I had my finger to far into the trigger guard and was pulling the trigger with the middle of my finger, around the middle knuckle. Once i started depressing the trigger with the pad of my fingertip my groups moved to the center of the target.

Was it mental? I guess you could make that argument. I have big hands and think that I was just using a natural grip, and much like the grip on a golf club, better results are achieved with a modified grip.

 

[one-eyed Jack]

I find that I don't flinch if I close my good eye before pulling the trigger. Jack.

 

[floriduh]

I have big hands and think that I was just using a natural grip, and much like the grip on a golf club, better results are achieved with a modified grip.

My wife wishes I had big hands.

Another thing I think helps shooters learn trigger discipline, if they are using a DA only it works even better, but prepping the trigger for the follow-up shot(s) will help alleviate a lot of "trigger press stress"-- is what I like to call it. Some will disagree, but what I teach is, on recoil the trigger should be reset, then a slight press is applied to the trigger while the sights are re-aligned. Once you have SA -- BANG -- the next shot is fired. Cause as you know, people only go down with one shot from a pistol in the movies. I also think that's a reason why follow up drills are so important and by doing them, it also helps the shooter be more comfortable with the BANG and more importantly, correct trigger press.

 

[floriduh]

I have big hands and think that I was just using a natural grip, and much like the grip on a golf club, better results are achieved with a modified grip.

My wife wishes I had big hands.

Another thing I think helps shooters learn trigger discipline, if they are using a DA only it works even better, but prepping the trigger for the follow-up shot(s) will help alleviate a lot of "trigger press stress"-- is what I like to call it. Some will disagree, but what I teach is, on recoil the trigger should be reset, then a slight press is applied to the trigger while the sights are re-aligned. Once you have SA -- BANG -- the next shot is fired. Cause as you know, people only go down with one shot from a pistol in the movies. I also think that's a reason why follow up drills are so important and by doing them, it also helps the shooter be more comfortable with the BANG and more importantly, correct trigger press.

 

[TWtommers]

When I do cap and ball I mix about half live rounds and half snap caps. Over and over. Typically, the shooter flinches, jerks, or otherwise screws up the shot until they hit the first snap cap. After that, they smooth out. By the last snap cap they're like statues.

The trick is to keep that up. I'll run them through a couple of those but advise that they do it on a regular basis too, preferably at the begining of any shooting session until they are smooth on every shot. Its a repetition thing so adding more dummy rounds means more opportunities to either enforce or correct the behavior in a single session.

 

[Cap]

Interesting article re: ball and dummy

Ball and Dummy for Dummies | Re-Gun

The difference is…. trigger jerk happens before or as the trigger breaks. Recoil management happens afterthe trigger break. Are you good enough to see the difference in someone else’s shooting? In your own? I got a clue for you… you aren’t, at least not for the typical use of this drill (more on that below). So, how to diagnose trigger jerk if Ball and Dummy isn’t so good?

 

[floriduh]

Interesting article re: ball and dummy

Ball and Dummy for Dummies | Re-Gun

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Good article and it brings up a very valid point, and something that some trainers don't normally pick up on:

If you watch their face while they shoot, you will generally notice them flinching. Sometimes subtly, sometimes very frankly with eyes closing hard.

I'm not a huge ball and dummy fan,, unless the shooter has no idea it's coming. If they know the drill is coming the value drops significantly.

I think what is more effective is to have them balance an object on the slide like a piece of .22 brass or a dime to have them work on their trigger control.

Or, another drill I like to do with 'some' new shooters is to have them exaggerate their eyes being open while live firing. I have them open them until it feels awkward and then tell them to slowly press the trigger. What you are looking for is them to close their eyes/start to squint, as they press. If they do it's because they're mentally anticipating the BANG. people make all kinds of excuses for it, myself included -- but it is what it is. You can't use this drill with 'some' people, or your average new shooter because they're just plain stoopid. But for a person looking to get past a plateau, when I've used this in the past they said it made them more aware of what their body/mind was trying to do.

It's all mental.

 

[houdini]

try the one hole drill.