Primers comparable?

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No one seems to have any Winchester Small Pistol primers in stock, which is what I normally use. I was wondering if CCI small pistol primers are comparable to substitute.

I have been told they will be okay as long as I am not at max powder charge.


Thanks for everyone's input.
 
I used primarily Winchester SPPs but tried some CCI and Remington when I couldn't find any Winchester and noticed no difference.
 
I never worry about brand of pistol primers. A long range rifle shooter will stick with one brand of primer at all costs but for pistol shooting we are never going to notice the difference.
 
what is the mechanism of premier difference? why would long range rifle shooters stick to one specific kind? if you don't mind me asking? i always thought differences between primer kinds are insignificant.
 
I have used Winchester, and CCi over the years without a problem.

I have also used Federal no problem.

If you load on a Dillon just check the warnings about Federal in your owners manual.
 
what is the mechanism of premier difference? why would long range rifle shooters stick to one specific kind? if you don't mind me asking? i always thought differences between primer kinds are insignificant.

1. Federal uses a different form of lead styphnate than other manufacturers, which may be one of the reasons its primers are the most sensitive. Some revolver shooters with light trigger jobs need federal primers for reliable ignition.

2. Consistency
 
Some primers can have nasty side effects. This was cause by some old Remington primer
Please explain how this is a useful post, how it adds to the discussion?

Did you mean:
  • don't use old primers?
  • don't use Remington primers?
  • don't use primers?

What is the picture showing:
  • bolt face erosion from one leaking primer?
  • boltface corrosion from leaking corrosive primers?

Geez, I was about to post that worrying about max loads switching brands of the same type of primer amounted to primer hysteria, then this!
 
Please explain how this is a useful post, how it adds to the discussion?

Did you mean:
  • don't use old primers?
  • don't use Remington primers?
  • don't use primers?

What is the picture showing:
  • bolt face erosion from one leaking primer?
  • boltface corrosion from leaking corrosive primers?

Geez, I was about to post that worrying about max loads switching brands of the same type of primer amounted to primer hysteria, then this!

Srsly, Supermoto, you need to be more of a value-add to Madisonian. He deserves it.
 
No one seems to have any Winchester Small Pistol primers in stock, which is what I normally use. I was wondering if CCI small pistol primers are comparable to substitute.

I have been told they will be okay as long as I am not at max powder charge.


Thanks for everyone's input.


not sure where you are, but ron's sport shop in South Dartmouth MA has 25-30k primers, WSP, WSR, WLR and he's not price gouging either...
i was just there yesterday and bought 1000 winch large rifle....

http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/gun-shops-reviews/923-rons-sport-shop-s-dartmouth-ma.html#post11731

call before you go to make sure he's open.....

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what is the mechanism of premier difference? why would long range rifle shooters stick to one specific kind? if you don't mind me asking? i always thought differences between primer kinds are insignificant.

think yogurt..... it's all about consistency.....
 
I can't seriously take someone seriously when they seriously spell seriously srsly

At least he's not Hamiltonian....

I mostly use Wolf / Tula primers. They work and they're cheap. (I do splurge on Federal for my PPC gun that I never shoot.)
 
what is the mechanism of premier difference? why would long range rifle shooters stick to one specific kind? if you don't mind me asking? i always thought differences between primer kinds are insignificant.

With rifle loads, a primer change can have a measurable (and meaningful) affect on accuracy.

The differences in primer explosive power (brisance) is all over the map from brand to brand (Check out these photos). As you can see, some primers are much more powerful than others, and a primer change can increase or decrease the chamber pressure in a significant manner. A change in pressure results in a change in velocity. Because of barrel harmonics, even a small velocity change has the potential to open up your groups. This is why it's sometimes necessary to work up a new load when you change primers.

In addition, primers themselves vary in power much more from lot-to-lot (and even primer-to-primer in the same lot) than propellant. This is because it's more difficult for the manufacturer to control the explosive power of the primers than it is to control the burn rate of a powder. Powder burn rate is easier to measure more accurately than primer 'explosiveness', and at a chemical level is easier to modify (to maintain consistency). It's more difficult to make consistent primers, but it can be done - it just adds to the cost. That's why 'match' and 'benchrest' primers are more expensive.

Also, since the primers are variable, it makes sense to use a primer that will be as 'weak' as possible yet still provide consistent ignition of the propellant. The reason for this is that if all primers vary, say 10% (I pulled this number out of my ass to make a point - bear with me) the actual variation of the 'weak' 10% is a smaller number than the variation of a 'strong' 10%. Therefore, the pressure and velocity will be less variable with a weaker primer.

This fact was borne out in tests by the US Army at the dawn of the smokeless powder era. They determined that a weak primer was an accurate primer. This is also why many high power shooters prefer Wolf (similar to the Russian primers in the photos linked above) and Federal small rifle primers. It's also why small-primer .308 brass is so coveted, and small primer 6.8 SPC rounds are more accurate than those that use a large primer.

With all that said, a primer change might 'only' result in a 1/4 MOA of difference in group size (although I've seen much more). A quarter MOA is 1/16" at 25 yards. Pistol shooters aren't going to lose sleep over it.

I hope this post clarifies things, and achieves Madisonian's threshold of usefulness.
 
No one seems to have any Winchester Small Pistol primers in stock, which is what I normally use. I was wondering if CCI small pistol primers are comparable to substitute.

I have been told they will be okay as long as I am not at max powder charge.


Thanks for everyone's input.

I think the short answer in your case, without knowing more detail, is "yes." Comparable.

I can't claim the level of expertise of others here, but I personally would have no qualms about using any brand small pistol primer where a small pistol primer is called for, in a nominal load. It may indeed result in a difference in muzzle velocity and point of impact, but I think with the short barrel of a pistol this would be undetectable.

The only significant difference I can imagine is reliability of ignition in some guns. Winchester primers are, according to folk lore, made with a softer cup material than CCI, so with a revolver, for example, with a weak mainspring you might see unreliable ignition with CCI where none was seen with Winchester. But I think this is a small risk, too. Examine fired cases, and see if your guns are making good, solid dents in the primers.

I only keep one brand of primers around in each size, and I treat them generically within a type, except for with match rifle ammunition.

What's the application? Pistol or revolver? Plinking, target, self defense?
 
Due to component shortages I have used several brands in my handgun loading, mostly 9mm. I have not been able to detect any difference in velocity on the chrono. Federal and WW have been extremely reliable, even in my DA/SA SIG and CZ with reduced power hammer springs. Tula and Wolf were less reliable averaging about a 3% FTF rate. Wolf small pistol magnum primers were completely unreliable in these 9mms.
 
Tula and Wolf were less reliable averaging about a 3% FTF rate.

That's odd. I've shot through over two cases (10,000) Wolf SRM primers without a single bad one. I haven't shot as many of their pistol primers (fewer than 1,000) but I haven't had one of those fail yet either. Maybe you got a bad lot?
 
That's odd. I've shot through over two cases (10,000) Wolf SRM primers without a single bad one. I haven't shot as many of their pistol primers (fewer than 1,000) but I haven't had one of those fail yet either. Maybe you got a bad lot?

I have had bad luck with wolf also, sometimes because there was no anvil, sometimes because they didn't seat all the way. The seating issue hasn't been a problem since I dumped the LNL
 
That's odd. I've shot through over two cases (10,000) Wolf SRM primers without a single bad one. I haven't shot as many of their pistol primers (fewer than 1,000) but I haven't had one of those fail yet either. Maybe you got a bad lot?
Same here. No problems at all with the SRM's.
No experience with pistol primers.
 
I guess it's how hard they're being hit. At 3% FTF with regular SPP, and "completely unreliable" with magnum, and the magnum primers probably having a thicker cup, it's likely a firing pin force issue.
 
That's odd. I've shot through over two cases (10,000) Wolf SRM primers without a single bad one. I haven't shot as many of their pistol primers (fewer than 1,000) but I haven't had one of those fail yet either. Maybe you got a bad lot?

Sorry, I should have been more specific. The Wolf SPM primers were unreliable in the SA/DA SIG and CZ because of the light hammer springs.
 
Sorry, I should have been more specific. The Wolf SPM primers were unreliable in the SA/DA SIG and CZ because of the light hammer springs.

That makes sense. The cups on the Wolf magnum primers are pretty thick.
 
I have been using Wold SR (not SR 223) primers in 40 with pretty decent luck, but still wouldn't use them for a major match.

There are the only primer I have ever used where seating them too deep causes reliability problems in my fotay. I seat them flush, rather than slightly recessed, and get reliable performance.
 
I have been using Wold SR (not SR 223) primers in 40 with pretty decent luck, but still wouldn't use them for a major match.

There are the only primer I have ever used where seating them too deep causes reliability problems in my fotay. I seat them flush, rather than slightly recessed, and get reliable performance.

Never heard that before. Seating them deep was my cure for these problems.
 
With rifle loads, a primer change can have a measurable (and meaningful) affect on accuracy.

The differences in primer explosive power (brisance) is all over the map from brand to brand (Check out these photos). As you can see, some primers are much more powerful than others, and a primer change can increase or decrease the chamber pressure in a significant manner.

Excellent link to photos EC.
 
With rifle loads, a primer change can have a measurable (and meaningful) affect on accuracy.

The differences in primer explosive power (brisance) is all over the map from brand to brand (Check out these photos). As you can see, some primers are much more powerful than others, and a primer change can increase or decrease the chamber pressure in a significant manner.

Excellent link to photos EC.
Those photos are cool, and I had been thinking it was a good way to determine brisance, as manufacturers don't supply objective data. However, I would like to see the methodology, that is, of the photographing process. I can't find anything on that site that describes the set-up, as in the camera triggering method, shutter speed, etc. Without such information, and lab calibration and validation exercise, the pictures are pretty much worthless. This is so because since the ignition and combustion of the primer occurs over a period of time that can easily exceed even nominally fast shutter speeds, the camera is probably capturing a moment during the combustion and not telling the whole story. Just consider, for a moment, for those of us old enough to remember, differing flash synchronization settings on cameras, and different burn-length flash bulbs (as in FP for focal plane shutters, much long burn than M, F, for example). In addition, I would guess that "free air" performance of primers differs from performance contained in a cartridge case, either full of powder (think rifle), or with mostly air (think light pistol loads using Bullseye); though, it's a good place to start. It's a shame manufacturers don't provide objective performance data.
 
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