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pre 1899

Under federal law, it's not a firearm.



Now...the question is....will the seller mail it to Mass? There are a lot of sellers that are affraid of Mass' reputation.

A C&R gives you more flexibility, with old, but not that old, guns

WRT Mass laws, a pre-1898 item MAY be considered a firearm ( as on school grounds), but there was a recent court case where a firearms case was thrown out, as the gun was a pre-'98, or Black Powder.

ETA:

Link to a FAQ about old stuff:

http://www.rawles.to/Pre-1899_FAQ.html
 
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Ultrarunner said:
Yikes, you know after careful reading I'll back track on that. I know that within the state you're ok, but out of state transfer require FFL if you don't have a C&R license.

Sorry about that!

Never hurts to double check!

See page 3:

http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-11/atf-p-5300-11.pdf
Click to expand...

Nope, you were right the first time. The page you reference talks about C&R FIREARMS, not antique NON-FIREARMS.

Antiques CAN be sold between parties in different states without a license and without going through an FFL. Most sellers, however, will insist that buyers prove they are at least 18 years old, because commerce laws require that a legal purchase be made by an adult.

Just BE SURE that the gun was, in fact, manufactured prior to 1899 and is a genuine antique - you should be good to go.

To get a feel for what most sellers are doing, go to one of the auction sites like gunbroker and see what they require for antique purchases.

Good Luck!

*
 
but remember the powder, cartridges, etc are still considered something you need a license for
 
Glockaholic said:
but remember the powder, cartridges, etc are still considered something you need a license for
Click to expand...

Actually, there is an exemption in the law for possession of supplies related to black powder/muzzle loaders, so it is possible to possess without a permit. Being MA, however, you'd still need one to purchase supplies in-state.
 
USMA-82 said:
NO! FA-10's are for reporting transfer of FIREARMS. Antiques are NOT FIREARMS.
Click to expand...

I bought an 1882 S&W Revolver from a MA FFL this week.

He required all the same paperwork and background checks as if I were buying an AR.

No big deal. I understand his license is on the line.
 
Spanz said:
does a pre 1898 need an FA-10? They don't even have serial numbers on many
Click to expand...

The real answer is how chickenshit the new owner of a pre-1899 is.

As I am chicken I would report the Transfer. Most Mass FFL's do, as their livelihood is on the line. I just bought an 1882 Black Powder Revolver this week - the FFL required me to complete the sale just as if I was buying a Glock.

Do you really have to report these non-firearms ? I don't want to be the test case.

Great site about antiques here: The Pre-1899 Antique Guns FAQ

NOTE: Firearms manufactured DURING 1899 are NOT ANTIQUES. They must be 1898 or before.
 
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SalemCat said:
The real answer is how chickenshit the new owner of a pre-1899 is.

As I am chicken I would report the Transfer. Most Mass FFL's do, as their livelihood is on the line. I just bought an 1882 Black Powder Revolver this week - the FFL required me to complete the sale just as if I was buying a Glock.

Do you really have to report these non-firearms ? I don't want to be the test case.

Great site about antiques here: The Pre-1899 Antique Guns FAQ

NOTE: Firearms manufactured DURING 1899 are NOT ANTIQUES. They must be 1898 or before.
Click to expand...

This.
Its a massive legal grey area. Both MA and the BATFE appear to exempt anything manufactured before 1898 as an item that is not legally classified as a firearm and any sale involving such a gun is not subject to any scrutiny and paperwork (4473s, background checks, and FA-10). So do what you need to do. If the seller will ship it to you directly, that is not technically illegal, if he wants to ship it through an ffl, he is just covering his ass in case any questions arise. However, seeing as it would not be classified as a firearm under state and federal regs, I don't know whether or not you would be required to fill out paperwork and show a MA gun license when you go to the gun shop to pick it up... Probably would depend on the ffl holder and his/her personal interpretation of the law, whether right or wrong or ignorant. Aren't gray areas fun?
 
Peicemaker said:
This.
Its a massive legal grey area. Both MA and the BATFE appear to exempt anything manufactured before 1898 as an item that is not legally classified as a firearm and any sale involving such a gun is not subject to any scrutiny and paperwork (4473s, background checks, and FA-10). So do what you need to do. If the seller will ship it to you directly, that is not technically illegal, if he wants to ship it through an ffl, he is just covering his ass in case any questions arise. However, seeing as it would not be classified as a firearm under state and federal regs, I don't know whether or not you would be required to fill out paperwork and show a MA gun license when you go to the gun shop to pick it up... Probably would depend on the ffl holder and his/her personal interpretation of the law, whether right or wrong or ignorant. Aren't gray areas fun?
Click to expand...

It's not gray, it's pure and simple dates, and in a departure from the usual pattern, MA actually allows you a year more than federal law - so you could have a firearm that needed to be transferred on a 4473 that had no FA-10 requirement. I also understand that dealers may want a bullet-proof bound book, but if the gun was made before the federal cutoff date, it's exempt, period, and if it's before the MA cutoff date it doesn't need an FA-10.
 
Buy it, have it shipped directly to your door. Since the feds AND the state of MA don't classify it as a firearm, it isn't one. It's that simple. IMHO it's the same thing as you asking "Could I have a pair of jeans shipped to me and possess 'em without an LTC?" Of course, because it isn't a gun.
 
Unless it has cargo pockets, and you have it shipped to a MA dealer, in which case it needs an FA-10 and please check the "high capacity" box. [smile]
 
SalemCat said:
The real answer is how chickenshit the new owner of a pre-1899 is.

As I am chicken I would report the Transfer. Most Mass FFL's do, as their livelihood is on the line. I just bought an 1882 Black Powder Revolver this week - the FFL required me to complete the sale just as if I was buying a Glock.

Do you really have to report these non-firearms ? I don't want to be the test case.

Great site about antiques here: The Pre-1899 Antique Guns FAQ

NOTE: Firearms manufactured DURING 1899 are NOT ANTIQUES. They must be 1898 or before.
Click to expand...

Peicemaker said:
This.
Its a massive legal grey area. Both MA and the BATFE appear to exempt anything manufactured before 1898 as an item that is not legally classified as a firearm and any sale involving such a gun is not subject to any scrutiny and paperwork (4473s, background checks, and FA-10). So do what you need to do. If the seller will ship it to you directly, that is not technically illegal, if he wants to ship it through an ffl, he is just covering his ass in case any questions arise. However, seeing as it would not be classified as a firearm under state and federal regs, I don't know whether or not you would be required to fill out paperwork and show a MA gun license when you go to the gun shop to pick it up... Probably would depend on the ffl holder and his/her personal interpretation of the law, whether right or wrong or ignorant. Aren't gray areas fun?
Click to expand...

Wow, way to make a simple topic difficult! Do mass dealers require this sometimes? Yes, probably the stupid ones. A FFL With a brain or clue won't even have a antique logged into their A&D anyway. A antique firearm in NOT federally regulated if made before 1899
 
JNewell said:
It's not gray, it's pure and simple dates, and in a departure from the usual pattern, MA actually allows you a year more than federal law - so you could have a firearm that needed to be transferred on a 4473 that had no FA-10 requirement. I also understand that dealers may want a bullet-proof bound book, but if the gun was made before the federal cutoff date, it's exempt, period, and if it's before the MA cutoff date it doesn't need an FA-10.
Click to expand...

I understand what the actual laws are, but its still a gray area. Not because of the actual laws (which are pretty damn cut and dry) but because of how people interpret them or simply fail to acknowledge their existence, or they are just scared shitless. And lets face it. Everyone is scared as shit of their own damn shadow in this state, so a cut and dry set of laws turns into a gray area as a result.


Just another failure to communicate.
 
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1898 and before - if they won't ship direct to me I don't buy. I'm just not paying an FFL to transfer something that does not need to be transferred, IMHO. I do FA-10's myself, but many will advise they are not necessary.

1889 thru 1962 C&R - Become a C&R, and C&R Handguns and Long Guns can be shipped directly to you. If the Seller won't ship to you, ask a local FFL to accept. Be prepared to pay $40 for a service you do not need. If it is shipped directly to you absolutely file a FA-10. And enter the purchase into your C&R Bound Book.

1963 thru 2013 - unless it is a C&R, and there are some recent firearms that are, it will be necessary to ship to a local FFL. No FA-10 because the FFL will do the transfer for his $40.

Replicas of 1898 and before are treated like actual 1898 or before - UNLESS the replica uses Centerfire or Rimfire Cartridges. This prevents Mass Residents from buying from any FFL a wide variety of Cowboy Handguns. Replica Centerfire or Rimfire Long Guns are treated as Modern Long Guns.

Of course there are many, many firearms that cannot be shipped to MA at all. They are considered Assault Weapons, or are Handguns not on the Lists, etc.

If I'm wrong on any count please say so.
 
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Peicemaker said:
I understand what the actual laws are, but its still a gray area. Not because of the actual laws (which are pretty damn cut and dry) but because of how people interpret them or simply fail to acknowledge their existence, or they are just scared shitless. And lets face it. Everyone is scared as shit of their own damn shadow in this state, so a cut and dry set of laws turns into a gray area as a result.


Just another failure to communicate.
Click to expand...


It is simply not gray. The problem, as you say, is "how people interpret them or simply fail to acknowledge their existence, or they are just scared shitless." I don't promise that if I had a MA dealer license I wouldn't feel the same, but your phrase (quoted) is the problem, not the law (in this rare case).

- - - Updated - - -

SalemCat said:
1898 and before - if they won't ship direct to me I don't buy. I'm just not paying an FFL to transfer something that does not need to be transferred, IMHO. I do FA-10's myself, but many will advise they are not necessary.
Click to expand...

Totally agree, and rational dealers will follow that line. And just for certainty, no FA-10 is required on a firearm that doesn't need a 4473.
 
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Son of Sasquatch said:
Speak for yourself. These items are explicitly exempt under the law. If you do get shit from the authorities keep your mouth shut and talk to your lawyer. You'll be able to set some solid precedent for the future and give the state a black eye.
Click to expand...

True, but few if any would want to risk being made an example of while trying to " set some solid precedent for the future and give the state a black eye". So its just status quo crap as usual.
 
Peicemaker said:
True, but few if any would want to risk being made an example of while trying to " set some solid precedent for the future and give the state a black eye". So its just status quo crap as usual.
Click to expand...

Look, we get into lots of disagreements here. There is no disagreement about a date. There simply isn't. MA licensed dealers may want to play it safe, but a date is a date is a date is a date. It's that simple.
 
SalemCat said:
I bought an 1882 S&W Revolver from a MA FFL this week.

He required all the same paperwork and background checks as if I were buying an AR.

No big deal. I understand his license is on the line.
Click to expand...

**DRB** said:
Wow, way to make a simple topic difficult! Do mass dealers require this sometimes? Yes, probably the stupid ones. A FFL With a brain or clue won't even have a antique logged into their A&D anyway. A antique firearm in NOT federally regulated if made before 1899
Click to expand...

Not required but also not dumb.

Trying to teach sales associates "exceptions" is just begging for mistakes.

Doing the same thing the same way every time you do it, makes it harder to make a mistake.

Sent from my chimney using smoke signals.
 
warwickben said:
I wish I had a date .


Salemcat
Mind explain guns after 63 that are c&r ?
Click to expand...

Just a few of the most popular ones are:

CZ-82 Handgun - mine is an 1987. These are really recent C&R's.
P-64 Handgun - many date from the late 60's, even early 70's
SKS Rifle - most, but perhaps not all, are 50+ years old. Still, some, especially the Yugoslavian 59/66A1 models, may enter the 1970's

The nice thing about the ATF and C&R's is the 50-year-old requirement floats - each year more firearms become C&R.

Whereas the pre-1899 Antique Date is fixed. Will it still be pre-1899 in the year 2100 ? (If we even have an America then, which is doubtful.)
 
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