Practical Implications of H4885 for Purchasing and Possessing

CrackPot

CrackPot

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Pardon the new thread. The main thread is cluttered and putting this in one clean post as a summary I am hoping is helpful. I don’t believe in Healey and I think GOAL has its head up it’s ass on a number of issues and this reflects that



Practical implications of H4885 for purchasing and possessing

A billion “but what about me?” questions in the main thread so I figure giving a single post describing what to buy when might help.


The new law was signed on 7/25/24 according to the press release. It was done so without an emergency preamble. This means NOTHING CHANGES until it goes into effect on 10/23/24. All current laws are in effect unchanged until 10/23/24.

You can buy anything currently legal. This means any/all off roster handguns via frame transfer. This means any/all semi auto rifles or shotguns with compliance done. This means any/all frames or receivers of potential assault-style weapons. You can do this until 10/23/24.

BUT only items possessed lawfully ON (not before, on) 8/1/24 are grandfathered from being unlawful ASWs once the new law takes effect. So while you can continue to purchase AR lowers, for example, through 10/23/24, only ones lawfully possessed on 8/1/24 will continue to be legal.


So there is no rush to buy right now EXCEPT that which will be an ASW once the new law goes into effect. The rush to buy is all the ARs and similar evil semi auto rifles and shotguns that you need to get by 8/1 to be grandfathered. So buy these by midnight on Thursday 8/1. Regular off roster handguns or non CMR compliant handguns like glocks or most CZs, etc you can skip buying for now and get anytime before 10/23/24.



Now, what about all the cool stuff I now own that I need to be grandfathered. Do I register my lowers? What do I need to do? The short answer is NOTHING. The law says you need to lawfully possess on 8/1. It also says it must be registered in accordance with 121B and serialized in accordance with 121C.

121B is the NEW state wide database where every gun in the state must be registered. The state has one year to implement. Once implemented every transaction must be validated in the system and the gun registered to the new owner and unregistered from the old owner. Everyone will have another year to register everything they currently own. You will need to register what you have before you can transact it to sell if you sell before the one year and have not yet registered it. This is 121B.

You cannot register anything today to satisfy this requirement. Today we have a database of transactions, not a database of registered guns and owners. YOU DO NOT NEED TO “REGISTER” BEFORE 8/2 to be in compliance with the new law or prove anything. The fact that you recorded a transaction in the current system PROVES nothing.

You can/should follow the current law. If you “purchase or obtain” a firearm, rifle or shotgun from other than a Ma dealer, LTC holder or fid holder, then record the transaction within seven days of “purchasing or obtaining”. Do this to be legal with today’s law, not because it is in anyway needed for the new law. It does nothing relative to the new law and the future 121B which might not take effect until late 2025.

For the state to successfully charge you with a violation of the new 131M ASW violation, the burden of proof is on them to prove that the firearm was NOT lawfully possessed by a MA dealer or LTC holder on 8/1/24. Prove a negative. Good luck. In practice they run a trace request with the ATF. It will show when manufactured, when sold to the distributor, when sold to the dealer and when the 4473 transferred it to a person. If it was manufactured after 8/1/24 then you are in trouble. But if they can’t prove it could have been in the state lawfully on 8/1, they are done. In most cases there will be a 4473 showing you bought it on or before 8/1 because you did. In summary if you lawfully own it on 8/1, you are good.

Some other things go bump on 10/23/24. If you have only a FID anything semi auto you own is now illegal for you to have. This is the single biggest taking in the new law and should be an easy challenge in court. But assuming no court action, all FID holders must get rid of their semi auto guns before 10/23/24. Yup, you are getting screwed. This also hits all the FUDDs with FIDs with Ruger mini 14s and 10/22s.

On 10/23 dealers will longer be able to sell ANYTHING not on the roster. This includes all rifles, shotguns, machine guns, frames, and receivers. Yup, when it takes effect we can sell on roster handguns and nothing else. Until they add each and every possible bolt gun, pump shot gun, lever rifle, etc, we cannot sell them even though they are perfectly legal to have. Another major insanity of the new law ans kikely a mistake. They made all firearms subject to the roster in 123 (o). This was the same in the old law when a “firearm” was a not rifle or shotgun. Not a firearm is a pistol, rifle, shotgun, machine gun etc. Failing to change this language took out all sales except what is on the current handgun roster. Another easy court challenge but these take time.

So it you need a nice new shotgun to hunt this year, get it before 10/23 since dealers can no longer sell you anything.

Summary

Buy ARs and related future evil guns before 8/2. Follow the current law. Don’t “register” stuff because you think it is required or helps with the new law.

Buy everything else you want before 10/23 because dealers won’t be able to sell anything after that except boring on roster handguns.

Write letters to your state senator and rep asking why they banned you from buying a new pump shotgun for hunting turkeys this year.

FID holders get rid of all your semi auto long guns before 10/23



Side note. What about Healey and 7/20/2016. This is a red hearing. If the gun is lawful now it’s still lawful. If you think the press conference on 7/20/16 made things magically illegal, then ok, they are illegal. Otherwise the language in the new law just makes pre 7/20/16 guns that you owned and registered (side not saying registered here in the new law is impossible since we don’t have registration proving that they don’t even understand the laws we have) BEFORE 7/20/16 NOT a copy or duplicate. They are still subject to the feature test which they will fail so all grandfathering comes from the 8/1 language in 131M. And it says BEFORE. All the guns people rushed to buy ON 7/20/16 don’t count. Ha. Stupid.

It adds up to a nothing burger. If it’s legal on 8/1 it’s still legal after the new law. The Healey language changes nothing. Maybe it makes your gun MORE legal, but I can’t come up with an actual example that it impacts. Healey sycophants like Jason Guida says it proves Healey was right and all post 2016 are illegal. Bah.
 
Broc Tuah said:
I know, and mods can also change the title if they want.

I just changed it. Let's see how long it lasts before it gets nuked now.
Click to expand...

I copied @CrackPot 's post here, to separate it from that other pile of shit.

Kids lets try to keep this as clean/OT as possible, other whining etc can go in the dumpster in GD.

I want this to be able to live here so:

A- @CrackPot can update it as he figures stuff out/sees fit (and its not in a sea of like curdled milk schmoo)
B- people can actually comment in relation to HIS POST - and not just generic 4883 whining.
C- People can use it as a reference thats not going to just diappear (this has happened once already and I was basically punching the walls).
 
drgrant said:
I copied @CrackPot 's post here, to separate it from that other pile of shit.

Kids lets try to keep this as clean/OT as possible, other whining etc can go in the dumpster in GD.

I want this to be able to live here so:

A- @CrackPot can update it as he figures stuff out/sees fit (and its not in a sea of like curdled milk schmoo)
B- people can actually comment in relation to HIS POST - and not just generic 4883 whining.
C- People can use it as a reference thats not going to just diappear (this has happened once already and I was basically punching the walls).
Click to expand...
Thank you sir.
 
If you purchased a spear/tavor/ps90/stripped lower/whatever from a not-in-MA ffl, how do you go about proving it's legally owned in MA by 8/1?
Is EFA-10 the only practical way?
Or is simply being a Ma resident and owning it enough?
 
Last edited:
wcorey said:
If you purchased a spear/tavor/ps90/stripped lower/whatever from a not-in-MA ffl, how do you go about proving it's legally owned in MA by 8/1?
Is EFA-10 the only practical way?
Or is simply being a Ma resident and owning it enough?
Click to expand...
You have it backwards. The state has to prove you did NOT lawfully possess it in MA on 8/1. Since you acquired it before 8/1, you have reasonable doubt to any proof they offer that it was not in the state.

Of course, IANAL. But in general, the state has to prove things, not you. You just have to cause reasonable doubt.
 
CrackPot said:
Pardon the new thread. The main thread is cluttered and putting this in one clean post as a summary I am hoping is helpful. I don’t believe in Healey and I think GOAL has its head up it’s ass on a number of issues and this reflects that



Practical implications of H4885 for purchasing and possessing

A billion “but what about me?” questions in the main thread so I figure giving a single post describing what to buy when might help.


The new law was signed on 7/25/24 according to the press release. It was done so without an emergency preamble. This means NOTHING CHANGES until it goes into effect on 10/23/24. All current laws are in effect unchanged until 10/23/24.

You can buy anything currently legal. This means any/all off roster handguns via frame transfer. This means any/all semi auto rifles or shotguns with compliance done. This means any/all frames or receivers of potential assault-style weapons. You can do this until 10/23/24.

BUT only items possessed lawfully ON (not before, on) 8/1/24 are grandfathered from being unlawful ASWs once the new law takes effect. So while you can continue to purchase AR lowers, for example, through 10/23/24, only ones lawfully possessed on 8/1/24 will continue to be legal.


So there is no rush to buy right now EXCEPT that which will be an ASW once the new law goes into effect. The rush to buy is all the ARs and similar evil semi auto rifles and shotguns that you need to get by 8/1 to be grandfathered. So buy these by midnight on Thursday 8/1. Regular off roster handguns or non CMR compliant handguns like glocks or most CZs, etc you can skip buying for now and get anytime before 10/23/24.



Now, what about all the cool stuff I now own that I need to be grandfathered. Do I register my lowers? What do I need to do? The short answer is NOTHING. The law says you need to lawfully possess on 8/1. It also says it must be registered in accordance with 121B and serialized in accordance with 121C.

121B is the NEW state wide database where every gun in the state must be registered. The state has one year to implement. Once implemented every transaction must be validated in the system and the gun registered to the new owner and unregistered from the old owner. Everyone will have another year to register everything they currently own. You will need to register what you have before you can transact it to sell if you sell before the one year and have not yet registered it. This is 121B.

You cannot register anything today to satisfy this requirement. Today we have a database of transactions, not a database of registered guns and owners. YOU DO NOT NEED TO “REGISTER” BEFORE 8/2 to be in compliance with the new law or prove anything. The fact that you recorded a transaction in the current system PROVES nothing.

You can/should follow the current law. If you “purchase or obtain” a firearm, rifle or shotgun from other than a Ma dealer, LTC holder or fid holder, then record the transaction within seven days of “purchasing or obtaining”. Do this to be legal with today’s law, not because it is in anyway needed for the new law. It does nothing relative to the new law and the future 121B which might not take effect until late 2025.

For the state to successfully charge you with a violation of the new 131M ASW violation, the burden of proof is on them to prove that the firearm was NOT lawfully possessed by a MA dealer or LTC holder on 8/1/24. Prove a negative. Good luck. In practice they run a trace request with the ATF. It will show when manufactured, when sold to the distributor, when sold to the dealer and when the 4473 transferred it to a person. If it was manufactured after 8/1/24 then you are in trouble. But if they can’t prove it could have been in the state lawfully on 8/1, they are done. In most cases there will be a 4473 showing you bought it on or before 8/1 because you did. In summary if you lawfully own it on 8/1, you are good.

Some other things go bump on 10/23/24. If you have only a FID anything semi auto you own is now illegal for you to have. This is the single biggest taking in the new law and should be an easy challenge in court. But assuming no court action, all FID holders must get rid of their semi auto guns before 10/23/24. Yup, you are getting screwed. This also hits all the FUDDs with FIDs with Ruger mini 14s and 10/22s.

On 10/23 dealers will longer be able to sell ANYTHING not on the roster. This includes all rifles, shotguns, machine guns, frames, and receivers. Yup, when it takes effect we can sell on roster handguns and nothing else. Until they add each and every possible bolt gun, pump shot gun, lever rifle, etc, we cannot sell them even though they are perfectly legal to have. Another major insanity of the new law ans kikely a mistake. They made all firearms subject to the roster in 123 (o). This was the same in the old law when a “firearm” was a not rifle or shotgun. Not a firearm is a pistol, rifle, shotgun, machine gun etc. Failing to change this language took out all sales except what is on the current handgun roster. Another easy court challenge but these take time.

So it you need a nice new shotgun to hunt this year, get it before 10/23 since dealers can no longer sell you anything.

Summary

Buy ARs and related future evil guns before 8/2. Follow the current law. Don’t “register” stuff because you think it is required or helps with the new law.

Buy everything else you want before 10/23 because dealers won’t be able to sell anything after that except boring on roster handguns.

Write letters to your state senator and rep asking why they banned you from buying a new pump shotgun for hunting turkeys this year.

FID holders get rid of all your semi auto long guns before 10/23



Side note. What about Healey and 7/20/2016. This is a red hearing. If the gun is lawful now it’s still lawful. If you think the press conference on 7/20/16 made things magically illegal, then ok, they are illegal. Otherwise the language in the new law just makes pre 7/20/16 guns that you owned and registered (side not saying registered here in the new law is impossible since we don’t have registration proving that they don’t even understand the laws we have) BEFORE 7/20/16 NOT a copy or duplicate. They are still subject to the feature test which they will fail so all grandfathering comes from the 8/1 language in 131M. And it says BEFORE. All the guns people rushed to buy ON 7/20/16 don’t count. Ha. Stupid.

It adds up to a nothing burger. If it’s legal on 8/1 it’s still legal after the new law. The Healey language changes nothing. Maybe it makes your gun MORE legal, but I can’t come up with an actual example that it impacts. Healey sycophants like Jason Guida says it proves Healey was right and all post 2016 are illegal. Bah.
Click to expand...
Very interesting read, thanks.

Can you comment on what we will or will not be able to eFA10 transfer to another LTC holder? Can we transfer semi-auto shotguns or semi-auto rifles that are not copies such as M1 Garrand, M1 Carbines etc...?
 
CrackPot said:
You have it backwards. The state has to prove you did NOT lawfully possess it in MA on 8/1. Since you acquired it before 8/1, you have reasonable doubt to any proof they offer that it was not in the state.

Of course, IANAL. But in general, the state has to prove things, not you. You just have to cause reasonable doubt.
Click to expand...
What about if down the road you ftf sell it in Ma, how does the new owner prove it was here on 8/1?
8/1 is simply inconsequential in this case because the state can't prove otherwise?

Sounds good in theory but a little optimistic considering the courts we're dealing with...
Yeah, I know, big boy pants and all...
 
Ae1m said:
Very interesting read, thanks.

Can you comment on what we will or will not be able to eFA10 transfer to another LTC holder? Can we transfer semi-auto shotguns or semi-auto rifles that are not copies such as M1 Garrand, M1 Carbines etc...?
Click to expand...
The old law is in effect until 10/23/24. Nothing changes.

The new law continues to allow personal transfers of 4 guns or ammunition per calendar year (yes, selling ammo consumes a personal transfer). The way the new law is written, there is in fact a significant gap in recording of certain transactions. 121B is what causes registration. Other places like 128B cause you to record when you purchase or obtain. These reference 121B which is delayed in implementation up to a year waiting on a new IT system.

The existing MIRCS does not satisfy all the requirements in other places that require recording in compliance with 121B. So just like the roster not existing for rifles and shotguns, we likely have an issue with satisfying the registration or transfer recoding requirements once the law takes effect and before 121B is online and active. I have not had time to pull all the threads on this topic yet, but the first couple I looked at showed gaps causing us to be unable to DO things.

This is what happens when 3 year olds copy/paste a new law together with no actual understanding of anything.
 
CrackPot said:
The old law is in effect until 10/23/24. Nothing changes.

The new law continues to allow personal transfers of 4 guns or ammunition per calendar year (yes, selling ammo consumes a personal transfer).
Click to expand...
Dang,look like I can not buy old ammo from people's and shoot it all up, it was fun.
 
@CrackPot is there a simple feature test for "legal" post 8/1 semiautomatic rifle/shotguns WRT this new version of the AWB?

EG- putting the obvious "roster compliance" issue aside for a moment; whats the "test"? I read one reference that basically indicated that anything semiauttomatic with a
detachable magazine was shoehorned into this AWB.
 
drgrant said:
@CrackPot is there a simple feature test for "legal" post 8/1 semiautomatic rifle/shotguns WRT this new version of the AWB?

EG- putting the obvious "roster compliance" issue aside for a moment; whats the "test"? I read one reference that basically indicated that anything semiauttomatic with a
detachable magazine was shoehorned into this AWB.
Click to expand...

Not quoting the acutal language, but summarizing

rifles are mostly screwed by copy or duplicate language. All ARs, All AKs, all lots of stuff. So if we are talking something else, then the key elements are
handguard and pistol grip. You get one. The other features are less common or could be worked around. rimfire not subject to a feature test

shotguns are actually no horrible. FUDD shotguns are fine even if semi. pistol grip and mag is bad but that is already true. really no material change that matters

pistols. What was illegal still is. added VFG or other foregrip below the barrel as a feature. Desert Eagles with threaded barrels were illegal but no longer are since the 50oz test is gone. That is the only "upside" to this.

There is always the language, but in general the bottom line is forget all enumerated weapons and their copies or duplicates and forget any modern semi auto center fire rifle based on features.
 
MAJoe said:
You can buy as much as you want FTF, limits are on sales.
Click to expand...

CrackPot said:
maybe a difference without a distinction, but you are right.
Click to expand...

Can you give it away for free to someone licensed? Like, if I wanted to meet someone from NES and felt like giving them a case of 9mm for being awesome is that allowed? Or maybe include it for free to anyone who wants to purchase some wildly overpriced ammo cans from me?
 
not new guy said:
Can you give it away for free to someone licensed? Like, if I wanted to meet someone from NES and felt like giving them a case of 9mm for being awesome is that allowed? Or maybe include it for free to anyone who wants to purchase some wildly overpriced ammo cans from me?
Click to expand...
Let me know if you want to test that out :)
 
not new guy said:
Can you give it away for free to someone licensed? Like, if I wanted to meet someone from NES and felt like giving them a case of 9mm for being awesome is that allowed?
Click to expand...
If I give someone $100, I'm not telling the state so they can then tax them on the $100 of 'additional income', I just give it to them. Just give it to them and be done with it. (I'd assume you know if they are safe to handle ammo or not, it could be a choking hazard) :)
 
Night_solstice said:
If I give someone $100, I'm not telling the state so they can then tax them on the $100 of 'additional income', I just give it to them. Just give it to them and be done with it. (I'd assume you know if they are safe to handle ammo or not, it could be a choking hazard) :)
Click to expand...

Yeah, of course. And to be honest I'm not concerned about ammo sales, just wondering how the game will be played once this goes live.
 
not new guy said:
Can you give it away for free to someone licensed? Like, if I wanted to meet someone from NES and felt like giving them a case of 9mm for being awesome is that allowed? Or maybe include it for free to anyone who wants to purchase some wildly overpriced ammo cans from me?
Click to expand...
The new law attempts to track every round of ammo that moves between parties. Obviously they dont know what you own because you may have shot it. But they want all ammo recorded in the new Super Mircs and all point of sales or FTF to use the system to record the movement of ammo. So even a gift of ammo, like a gift of a gun constitutes a transfer.

How the hell is this actually enforced is beyond my ability to comprehend short of installing cameras in every home and other private and public spaces ala 1984. But that is what the law does.
 
CrackPot said:
Not quoting the acutal language, but summarizing

rifles are mostly screwed by copy or duplicate language. All ARs, All AKs, all lots of stuff. So if we are talking something else, then the key elements are
handguard and pistol grip. You get one. The other features are less common or could be worked around. rimfire not subject to a feature test

shotguns are actually no horrible. FUDD shotguns are fine even if semi. pistol grip and mag is bad but that is already true. really no material change that matters

pistols. What was illegal still is. added VFG or other foregrip below the barrel as a feature. Desert Eagles with threaded barrels were illegal but no longer are since the 50oz test is gone. That is the only "upside" to this.

There is always the language, but in general the bottom line is forget all enumerated weapons and their copies or duplicates and forget any modern semi auto center fire rifle based on features.
Click to expand...
So the Beretta A300 Patrol will be ok after 8/1 (not getting into the approved roster stuff)?
 
CrackPot said:
pistols. What was illegal still is. added VFG or other foregrip below the barrel as a feature. Desert Eagles with threaded barrels were illegal but no longer are since the 50oz test is gone. That is the only "upside" to this.
Click to expand...


So with braces being back in play due to the ATF rule having been crushed are pistols now good to go if no VFG and fixed mag applies?
 
CrackPot said:
rifles are mostly screwed by copy or duplicate language. All ARs, All AKs, all lots of stuff. So if we are talking something else, then the key elements are
handguard and pistol grip. You get one. The other features are less common or could be worked around. rimfire not subject to a feature test
Click to expand...
I believe pistol grip has been expanded to include thumhole stocks.
 
I know this is a silly question, but I am generally confused/stumped.

Let’s say I purchase a stripped lower from a dealer or someone from NES. Do I have to do anything else prior to 8/1? Other than own it.

Obviously, if I purchased a complete lower. I would then need to do a FFL transfer if purchased from a non-dealer.

Am I correct? Thanks!
 
DJBrad said:
So with braces being back in play due to the ATF rule having been crushed are pistols now good to go if no VFG and fixed mag applies?
Click to expand...
Fixed mag as long as never manufactured or remanufactured to take a detachable mag are not ASWs for pistols and rifles

Pistol braces have never been a MA issue. If you can pass the feature test or not be a copy or duplicate then you can count features. New features don't care about 50oz but do care about copy or duplicate which takes out a lot of stuff
 
CrackPot said:
Fixed mag as long as never manufactured or remanufactured to take a detachable mag are not ASWs for pistols and rifles

Pistol braces have never been a MA issue. If you can pass the feature test or not be a copy or duplicate then you can count features. New features don't care about 50oz but do care about copy or duplicate which takes out a lot of stuff
Click to expand...
So a stripped lower, possessed by an LTC holder on 8/1, can not be then built into a pistol configured AR thanks to its grandfathered status?
 
Atlantis said:
So a stripped lower, possessed by an LTC holder on 8/1, can not be then built into a pistol configured AR thanks to its grandfathered status?
Click to expand...
The lower is lawfully possessed so by definition it is not an assault style weapon. When you build it do you need to follow any old rules assuming you build after 10/22/24? The way the law is written, anything lawfully possessed on 8/1 whether a pre94 or a brand new lower is grandfathered. This says build as you like.

The primary lawyer I speak to is aligned with that interpretation but none of us think acting on it is without risk here in MA
 
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