Post 7/31/24 Handgun frame transfers

Rob Boudrie

Rob Boudrie

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As I have mentioned in other posts, anyone offering a detailed explaination of the finer details of how the new law will be applied are guessing. In that spirit, I offer my thoughts on handgun frame transfers on or after 81:

Assuming for the sake of discussion, the frame is for a gun on the statutory list.
  • The "frame is not a gun" loophole goes away.

  • Interpretation #1: A frame is not yet a compliant model with a gun on the list, and thus cannot be transferred until it is complite.

  • Interpretation #2: A frame defines the gun, and if the gun the frame goes to is on the list it can be transferred

  • Ditto for the consumer safety regulations: Is the frame for a compliant gun consistent with the CMR, or not because it does not yet have a loaded chamber indicator and manual safety or atrocious trigger pull?
My speculation is there will be no formal determination; different advice from different lawyers; and varying comfort levels from dealers.
 
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Rob Boudrie said:
As I have mentioned in other posts, anyone offering a detailed explaination of the finer details of how the new law will be applied are guessing. In that spirit, I offer my thoughts on handgun frame transfers on or after 81:

Assuming for the sake of discussion, the frame is for a gun on the statutory list.
  • The "frame is not a gun" loophole goes away.

  • Interpretation #1: A frame is not yet a compliant model with a gun on the list, and thus cannot be transferred until it is complite.

  • Interpretation #2: A frame defines the gun, and if the gun the frame goes to is on the list it can be transferred

  • Ditto for the consumer safety regulations: Is the frame for a compliant gun consistent with the CMR, or not because it does not yet have a loaded chamber indicator and manual safety or atrocious trigger pull?
My speculation is there will be no format determination; different advice from different lawyers; and varying comfort levels from dealers.
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My guess....the main point of a frame being a firearm is just shutting down new off list pistol and AR sales totally. Dealers will not be bringing in either after the law.

Selling....will be list(s) who the fxck knows? take a guess? get a lawyer? only stuff likely.

All others shit like glocks and off list shit...well....sell them out of state. Basically making them worthless here if you can't legally transfer them, which is the intention. Because they know the finite amount would make them valuable and really stupid priced and they don't want that.
 
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Mark from ? said:
My guess....the main point of a frame being a firearm is just shutting down new off list pistol and AR sales totally. Dealers will not be bringing in either after the law.
Click to expand...
Agreed, however, my comment was regarding frames for on-list handguns.
 
Mark from ? said:
My guess....the main point of a frame being a firearm is just shutting down new off list pistol and AR sales totally. Dealers will not be bringing in either after the law.

Selling....will be list(s) who the fxck knows? take a guess? get a lawyer? only stuff likely.

All others shit like glocks and off list shit...well....sell them out of state. Basically making them worthless here if you can't legally transfer them, which is the intention. Because they know the finite amount would make them valuable and really stupid priced and they don't want that.
Click to expand...

Do you mean dealer stock can’t be sold, or privately owned off list pistols can’t be transferred via private sale?
 
Varmint said:
Do you mean dealer stock can’t be sold, or privately owned off list pistols can’t be transferred via private sale?
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I don't know if this pile of shit blocks or restricts privsales or not, so thats up in the air. I haven't been interested in selling anything privately so I havent bothered to look. I've reached the point in my life where the more of this MA shit that is promulgated, the less I actually care about it, and I only really pay attention to things someone could "trip over easily and get pinched" etc, not the obscuratron stuff.

If it does not hard-block privsales or expose the seller to a felony for going off list, etc, then people will still be flipping guns, and there will still be "ways".
 
drgrant said:
I don't know if this pile of shit blocks or restricts privsales or not, so thats up in the air. I haven't been interested in selling anything privately so I havent bothered to look. I've reached the point in my life where the more of this MA shit that is promulgated, the less I actually care about it, and I only really pay attention to things someone could "trip over easily and get pinched" etc, not the obscuratron stuff.

If it does not hard-block privsales or expose the seller to a felony for going off list, etc, then people will still be flipping guns, and there will still be "ways".
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The more unconstitutional stuff in it the better maybe.

It seems like some of the stuff in the bill has been ruled unconstitutional by the SC recently, so one wonders if there's any consequence anymore to ignoring the Supreme Court.

The more government ignores its own laws, the more people will ignore the government's laws. I think we're reaching that point soon.
 
Varmint said:
The more government ignores its own laws, the more people will ignore the government's laws. I think we're reaching that point soon.
Click to expand...

In mass we've already reached that point a long time ago... like as an example in 2016 it demonstrated that it does not act in good faith. Then events like the Karen Read thing happen which basically constantly reiterate that the state keeps making up shit as it goes along.... so why is anyone going to play by the rules anymore when the state basically is caught cheating and not obeying the rules? its been a valid question in this state for decades.
 
drgrant said:
In mass we've already reached that point a long time ago... like as an example in 2016 it demonstrated that it does not act in good faith. Then events like the Karen Read thing happen which basically constantly reiterate that the state keeps making up shit as it goes along.... so why is anyone going to play by the rules anymore when the state basically is caught cheating and not obeying the rules? its been a valid question in this state for decades.
Click to expand...
Looks like Mass politics moved to the federal level.
 
Rob Boudrie said:
Agreed, however, my comment was regarding frames for on-list handguns.
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Maybe Im confused.

Who would really care about on list gun frames? Are people building on list guns or something?

I mean...just buy the thing at the dealer for on list stuff.

Most frame building is 80% or Glock compatable shit....none of which will pass the MA sniff test.

The only reason we transferred frames was to get around the off list thing......which won't/can't be done anymore on 8/1

Can you even buy guns/frames and transfer online anymore even if they are on list with this bill?

I thought it outlawed all online gun transfers and ammo sales from out of state??
 
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Mark from ? said:
Maybe Im confused.

Who would really care about on list gun frames? Are people building on list guns or something?

I mean...just buy the thing at the dealer for on list stuff.

Most frame building is 80% or Glock compatable shit....none of which will pass the MA sniff test.

The only reason we transferred frames was to get around the off list thing......which won't/can't be done anymore on 8/1

Can you even buy guns/frames and transfer online anymore even if they are on list with this bill?

I thought it outlawed all online gun transfers and ammo sales from out of state??
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That's not "the only reason"

The secondary inclination is that things like Glocks (or for that matter M&Ps with non gay triggers) are no longer given immunity from cmr940 because if the state considers a frame a firearm then it's now subject to cmr940......
 
Rob Boudrie said:
As I have mentioned in other posts, anyone offering a detailed explaination of the finer details of how the new law will be applied are guessing. In that spirit, I offer my thoughts on handgun frame transfers on or after 81:

Assuming for the sake of discussion, the frame is for a gun on the statutory list.
  • The "frame is not a gun" loophole goes away.

  • Interpretation #1: A frame is not yet a compliant model with a gun on the list, and thus cannot be transferred until it is complite.

  • Interpretation #2: A frame defines the gun, and if the gun the frame goes to is on the list it can be transferred

  • Ditto for the consumer safety regulations: Is the frame for a compliant gun consistent with the CMR, or not because it does not yet have a loaded chamber indicator and manual safety or atrocious trigger pull?
My speculation is there will be no formal determination; different advice from different lawyers; and varying comfort levels from dealers.
Click to expand...

Well, one could argue, DOES point number 1 really go away WRT CMR940 S16? Is this is like shrodingers gun or something.... EG...

Like MGL is to consider a frame a firearm under MGL if this is to be believed.

So lets try to apply CMR940. "consumer safety regulations"

So you have this HANDGUN FRAME in your hand. That does nothing. That cannot fire a round.

How can that entity (this frame, in your hand) be deemed "unsafe" by CMR940 at that point. Average 5 (or whatever it is) year old? check. An average 5 year old cannot make a frame "discharge". They can play with it all day and nothing happens.

Loaded Chamber Indicator? Well, THERE IS NO CHAMBER. so why would you need an LCI?

etc, etc, ad nauseam
 
Noreaster said:
I am fairly certain that this pile of crap was all written so there would be multiple scenarios of interpretation which would allow flexible enforcement.
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Meh, reality is the trend in those cases is towards less or no enforcement. Unclear laws create doors that can swing both ways. If you are a prosecutor
are you going to want to try prosecuting someone for something that might have an out? Or do you want to press the easy button? (example, possesion without an FID/LTC vs something like an AWB charge. )

The purpose of the confusing pile of crap is to stoke fear, however. And tthe pant shittter posts on this board over the past however days proved that
out pretty well.
 
drgrant said:
if this pile of shit blocks or restricts privsales or not,
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wasn`t it stated that every private sale was supposed to go via ffl?
or was it shot down already? well, one way or another we will have to wait now to see what exactly is going to happen.
 
paul73 said:
wasn`t it stated that every private sale was supposed to go via ffl?
or was it shot down already? well, one way or another we will have to wait now to see what exactly is going to happen.
Click to expand...

I havent read the whole pile of shit yet, I havent seen it mentioned, either. I figure if it was in there people would have made noises about it at this point.
 
drgrant said:
I havent read the whole pile of shit yet, I havent seen it mentioned, either. I figure if it was in there people would have made noises about it at this point.
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i don`t care neither.
but it is not difficult to grasp of what the intent of the whole thing was - essentially to freeze any current ownership and prevent any new ownership. the mechanism for the latter got rather well explained, what is in the hat for the first - we will see.

as with anything else, any law gets defined by its factual enforcement. the first stage of mass induced fear will pass, eventually, then we will see.
 
paul73 said:
i don`t care neither.
but it is not difficult to grasp of what the intent of the whole thing was - essentially to freeze any current ownership and prevent any new ownership. the mechanism for the latter got rather well explained, what is in the hat for the first - we will see.

as with anything else, any law gets defined by its factual enforcement. the first stage of mass induced fear will pass, eventually, then we will see.
Click to expand...

I think the intent was "throw temper tanttrum, scare people, reduce ownership" etc.

The amount of "factual enforcement" will be minimal to nonexistent. Even with healeyban (now like 8? yrs old) there have only been a handful of mentions of
cases related to it or even mentions in similar legal circles. Enough to make it, as a function of law, statistically insignificant. Admittedly healyban is/was fake shit.

I expect this wont be much different, there will be more legal activity intentionally initiated by pro RKBA forces in court systems from this than will come from the
state end, I would expect.
 
paul73 said:
i don`t care neither.
but it is not difficult to grasp of what the intent of the whole thing was - essentially to freeze any current ownership and prevent any new ownership. the mechanism for the latter got rather well explained, what is in the hat for the first - we will see.

as with anything else, any law gets defined by its factual enforcement. the first stage of mass induced fear will pass, eventually, then we will see.
Click to expand...
Limiting the transfer to bequest was obviously intended to have the number of legal guns and mags decrease over time, while allowing the minimal to avoid the complications of a governmental taking.
 
paul73 said:
depends upon financial impact on most ffl stores, really. if it forces 90% of them out of business - the factual impact will be severe.
Click to expand...

Yes, as I mentioned before this does more front end damage to dealers + newbies than it does anyone else, even if that damage is indirect (unwillignness to defy
authority by implied threat of enforcement).
 
drgrant said:
Well, one could argue, DOES point number 1 really go away WRT CMR940 S16? Is this is like shrodingers gun or something.... EG...

Like MGL is to consider a frame a firearm under MGL if this is to be believed.

So lets try to apply CMR940. "consumer safety regulations"

So you have this HANDGUN FRAME in your hand. That does nothing. That cannot fire a round.

How can that entity (this frame, in your hand) be deemed "unsafe" by CMR940 at that point. Average 5 (or whatever it is) year old? check. An average 5 year old cannot make a frame "discharge". They can play with it all day and nothing happens.

Loaded Chamber Indicator? Well, THERE IS NO CHAMBER. so why would you need an LCI?

etc, etc, ad nauseam
Click to expand...
Well I was in Cali quite few years ago, and went to a shop. You could get lowers then there, but a frame was a firearm.

And the dealers said they had to put trigger locks with every firearm sale, I witnessed him putting a trigger lock on a bare lower with no trigger and half a trigger guard. Litterally putting a trigger lock on a piece of aluminium.

Now we are there........
 
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