Possible problem with new gun

[Jose]

Today I shot my Model 65 for the first time, and had too many (about 6) failures to fire.

The rounds involved clearly showed a light primer strike. All of them lit off on the second hit. I was using some factory reloads by Precision Ammo that I picked up at the indoor range. I've used this stuff before in my J frame w/o a problem, but can't verify if it was the same lot.

When I got home, I examined the 65's pin protrusion and it actually is more than the 637's. I also dry fired the gun dozens of times in several attitudes while loooking through the rear cylinder gap and never did see firing pin protrusion that was abnormally short. Based on how light some of the primer strikes were, I should have seen hardly any pin sticking out.

The only other explanation is that both of the 50 round boxes that I shot today had rounds where the primers had not been seated completely. This, IMO, would cause what appears to be a light strike as the force of the hit is used to finally seat the primer, leaving just a faint impact mark. The next hit on the primer then would crush the anvil enough to light off the charge.

I guess I could send the gun back, but I don't want to yet because I was using ammo that was not made by one of the big ammo companies (and the box clearly says reloads). I'm afraid that S&W would make note of it (since they require you to disclose whose ammo you were using during the malf.) and use that reason to a) deny this claim if there is something wrong with the handgun and b) void my warranty.

So I guess I'll buy a box or two of Whichester White Box and run the drill again. If it works, I'll chalk it up to bad ammo. If it doesn't, then I can send it to Smith and be able to tell them that the gun malfunctioned with factory ammo.

I do have to say that revolver is accurate as all get out.

 

[kendall-op]

I would try some wwb like you said before going through the trouble of sending it back to Smith

 

[Scrivener]

The only other explanation is that both of the 50 round boxes that I shot today had rounds where the primers had not been seated completely. This, IMO, would cause what appears to be a light strike as the force of the hit is used to finally seat the primer, leaving just a faint impact mark. The next hit on the primer then would crush the anvil enough to light off the charge.

I'll bet good money there is NOTHING wrong with your gun. Your own evidence points to bad ammo.

Note that one of the shooters at AFS last Sunday was using, IIRC, Precision Ammo .40 S&W. He blew a stage because the cartridges were not properly sized, causing a series of FTFs.

Get NEW ammo; WWB, CCI Blazer (aluminum or brass; it won't make a difference), whatever, so long as it is new ammo.

If, and ONLY if, you still get light hits, worry about your gun. At that point, the next step is to take off the side plate (VERY carefully!), clean out the crap and lube properly.

 

[Jose]

Note that one of the shooters at AFS last Sunday was using, IIRC, Precision Ammo .40 S&W. He blew a stage because the cartridges were not properly sized, causing a series of FTFs.

Interesting. Was it a black box with yellow writing? If so, that's the same stuff.

 

[drgrant]

Although this is highly unlikely, but still possible- take the grip off the
gun and make sure that screw that provides tension on the mainspring
hasn't backed itself out. This is probably unlikely if the gun is really
"new" but not impossible. There are guys at the pin shoots always
dicking around with that screw... because they played with it in some sort
of misguided attempt to make the trigger lighter. If it's just floating
around in its mounting I'd put some low-grade loctite in the threads.
(because it eventually will work its way out again. )

-Mike

 

[Scrivener]

Interesting. Was it a black box with yellow writing? If so, that's the same stuff.

I recall it as a blue box. Rob Boudrie might recall.

 

[Jose]

Although this is highly unlikely, but still possible- take the grip off the
gun and make sure that screw that provides tension on the mainspring
hasn't backed itself out. This is probably unlikely if the gun is really
"new" but not impossible. There are guys at the pin shoots always
dicking around with that screw... because they played with it in some sort
of misguided attempt to make the trigger lighter. If it's just floating
around in its mounting I'd put some low-grade loctite in the threads.
(because it eventually will work its way out again. )

-Mike

Can you or someone provide a pic or link to a diagram showing what is what?

Revolver guts are new to me.

 

[Pilgrim]

Just pull the grips off and you'll see a screw (near the bottom)pressing against the flat main spring that runs from top to bottom in the frame of the handle. Make sure the screw hasn't backed out. If not sure, screw it in a little and try it again. Adjusting this screw sets both the force with which the hammer hits the firing pin AND will make the trigger pull go from easy to hard. The harder the hammer hits, the harder the trigger pull.

It's easy, you can't mess it up.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Jose, let me clarify. Judging by your picture in the New Acquisitions thread, you have a revolver with rubber grips. If you take the grips off (by removing the screw at the base of the grips and pulling them straight down), you'll see a screw on the front of the grip frame near the bottom. With "Old School" revolvers, you don't even have to remove the grips to get at this screw. Here's a pic of the screw in question on an old Model 10:

As DrGrant and Pilgrim implied, this screw tensions the hammer (flat) spring. If it's backed out too much, you'll get light strikes. Some people back this screw out in a cheap attempt to lighten the double action trigger pull. It will lighten the DA pull, but it will also cause the hammer to strike light. I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that this is your "problem". Tighten the screw a bit and test it again - I bet you'll be fine.

Lots of times when someone is selling a S&W revolver, they'll back this screw out a bit to amaze prospective buyers with the "smoothness" of the DA pull.

EDIT: Don't take off the side plate.

 

[Jose]

Just pull the grips off and you'll see a screw (near the bottom)pressing against the flat main spring that runs from top to bottom in the frame of the handle. Make sure the screw hasn't backed out. If not sure, screw it in a little and try it again. Adjusting this screw sets both the force with which the hammer hits the firing pin AND will make the trigger pull go from easy to hard. The harder the hammer hits, the harder the trigger pull.

It's easy, you can't mess it up.

Done. The mainspring screw was tight, but the side plate screws were all loose. Tightened those up and while I had the sideplate off lubed every pivot point and sear looking surface I found.

I'll get some good factory ammo this coming week and try again.

 

[vellnueve]

Also, Jose, I have 5 S&Ws. Three of them have gone back for repair in the last 5 months (I think I'm just unlucky) and not once did they ask what kind of ammo I was using. If they don't ask you specifically, don't tell them.

 

[Jose]

Looks like ammo might be the culprit.

Shot again today, 50 rounds of Fiocchi 148 grain and 50 rounds of WWB 125 gr +P.

One FTF with Fiocchi, zero with Winchester.

I need to keep shooting to make sure it's ammo and not the pistol.

 

[vellnueve]

It's very unusual to get light strikes with an SW revolver, especially with quality ammo like Fiocchi, but I have had it happen with Fiocchi and a Taurus.

Gives you an excuse to put a couple hundred more rounds downrange.

 

[Jose]

Gives you an excuse to put a couple hundred more rounds downrange.

+1

 

[GaryO]

I just sold my 65-3 recently and never once did I have a FTF. Must be the ammo.

 

[Jose]

I guess it was an ammo problem. I ran 100 rounds of Independence brand 38 Spcl without a single problem other than the pistol shooting low. Looks like it's regulated for higher velocity 357 Mag.

 

[Scrivener]

I find that .357 magnum ammo shoots LOWER than my .38 ammo. Reason: It's faster, thus spending LESS time in the upward-recoiling barrel.

 

[Jose]

I find that .357 magnum ammo shoots LOWER than my .38 ammo. Reason: It's faster, thus spending LESS time in the upward-recoiling barrel.

Hmmmmmmmm........That's one way of looking at it.

Honestly, I will probably just call S&W and ask what ammo they used to regulate the gun with. I'd hate to go filing on the front sight to get the POI up with light (125 - 130 gr) 38 Special only to have it be off with the loads that count (38 Spcl +P and 357).

 

[Scrivener]

I'd hate to go filing on the front sight to get the POI up with light (125 - 130 gr) 38 Special only to have it be off with the loads that count (38 Spcl +P and 357).

Oh, go ahead. We learn a lot by "Dremel gunsmithing." Besides, then you can install the fiber optic front sight you REALLY want.

 

[vellnueve]

My 520 seems to be spot on at short ranges (30 feet) with .357 (Fed Hydra Shoks), .38 +P (Win Personal Protection) and .38 target loads (Ultramax SWCs).

My shooting at longer ranges (over 50 feet) is a crapshoot to begin with.

 

[RKG]

Done. The mainspring screw was tight, but the side plate screws were all loose. Tightened those up and while I had the sideplate off lubed every pivot point and sear looking surface I found.

I'll get some good factory ammo this coming week and try again.

If you're saying that the sideplate screws were loose and the sideplate itself had lifted to the point where someone who admits to being unfamiliar with revolvers (and Smiths) could lift the sideplate, I would definitely take this revolver back to S&W.

Sideplate removal in a S&W is a non-intuitive artform. I've seen more revolvers ruined by untrained attempts to remove the sideplate. In addition, all sorts of other collateral damage is possible, including a skewing of the pin on which the hammer revolves, which, coincidentally enough, can cause light strikes because of excessive friction or port entry attitude into the firing pin channel.

There may be little to my concerns, but it doesn't cost much beyond a bit of time to have the factory take a look, and you will at a minimum derive a good deal of peace of mind. More likely, you'll have your revolver restored to fresh-from-the-factory spec.

 

[Jose]

RKG, the sideplate screws were merely a tad loose. Not so much that the sideplate could be lifted.

I may be new to S&W revolvers, but I've worked on machinery long enough to know not to force anything and to figure out how to remove parts that on the surface seem stuck together. I've removed the sideplates of both this and my other revolver just to see the works and it was actually pretty easy to get them off without forcing or breaking anything. A few judicious taps to the frame and lightly prying evenly around the perifery of the gap. And yes, I know about the little tab that fits under the frame up by the hammer and the various pins and cavities upon which the trigger and several levers pivot about.

My weapon is working fine. I just had used crap ammo.

 

[jhrosier]

Jose,
Folks make a big deal of removing a S&W sideplate, when it is really easy to do without risk of damage to your gun.
There is never a need to pry the sideplate off.
If rust or congealed oil have glued it in place, it is very challenging.
Otherwise, remove the screws and strike the gripframe sharply with a wooden dowel or small plastic screwdriver handle, on the same side as the sideplate.
The sideplate will pop out of its' recess easily.
It is best to hold a finger or thumb just over the sideplate so that the internal parts don't get loose and the sideplate doesn't fall and get damaged.

 

[EddieCoyle]

Jose,
Folks make a big deal of removing a S&W sideplate, when it is really easy to do without risk of damage to your gun.
There is never a need to pry the sideplate off.
If rust or congealed oil have glued it in place, it is very challenging.
Otherwise, remove the screws and strike the gripframe sharply with a wooden dowel or small plastic screwdriver handle, on the same side as the sideplate.
The sideplate will pop out of its' recess easily.
It is best to hold a finger or thumb just over the sideplate so that the internal parts don't get loose and the sideplate doesn't fall and get damaged.

I hit it on the opposite side with a plastic screwdriver to pop it off. The hammer block usually falls out too, if it does, I make sure to put it back in the right position otherwise the sideplate won't go back on.

I always advise against taking the sideplate off a S&W revolver unless you've seen someone do it because of a pre-Model 27 that I almost bought. The revolver was beautiful except for the dents, scratches, and pry marks on the side plate and hammer. It looked like some well-meaning soul tried to remove the sideplate by prying with a screwdriver between the sideplate and hammer.

Unfortunately, the revolver was priced as if it were nearly perfect.

For anybody intending to take the sideplate off their S&W revolver:

There is a tab on the underside of the sideplate at the top that fits into a recess in the frame. The sideplate "swings" out from the bottom - and by that I mean that the edge of the sideplate nearest the trigger and grips lifts out first. Once you've seen the sideplate off the gun it becomes very obvious as to how it goes on and off. With the sideplate on the gun, this is not so obvious - hence the pry marks.

Also, it is likely that the the hammer block will fall out when you remove the side plate. The hammer block is a thin, 1" long piece that looks like a lock pick. It "blocks" the hammer, preventing it from traveling far enough to fire a cartridge unless/until the trigger is pulled:

The slot in the bottom fits over a pin in the action, the little tab on top goes in front of the hammer. The whole thing fits into a recess milled into the sideplate; so if it is not properly re-installed, you won't be able to get the sideplate back on.

 

[RKG]

RKG, the sideplate screws were merely a tad loose. Not so much that the sideplate could be lifted.

I may be new to S&W revolvers, but I've worked on machinery long enough to know not to force anything and to figure out how to remove parts that on the surface seem stuck together. I've removed the sideplates of both this and my other revolver just to see the works and it was actually pretty easy to get them off without forcing or breaking anything. A few judicious taps to the frame and lightly prying evenly around the perifery of the gap. And yes, I know about the little tab that fits under the frame up by the hammer and the various pins and cavities upon which the trigger and several levers pivot about.

My weapon is working fine. I just had used crap ammo.

OK; I misinterpreted, I guess.

Light lubing of the pins that project from the inside of the frame is OK, but I'd be cautious about lubing any of the stoned mating surfaces.

The best single volume about S&W repair and maintenance is by a guy named Jerry Kuhnhausen; you might want to get a copy.

 

[Jose]

The best single volume about S&W repair and maintenance is by a guy named Jerry Kuhnhausen; you might want to get a copy.

Thanks, it's on my to-buy list.

 

[jhrosier]

....
The best single volume about S&W repair and maintenance is by a guy named Jerry Kuhnhausen; you might want to get a copy.

+1 on Kuhnhausen. I have his Ruger single action book and it is great.
The S&W book is next on my list.