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Position of Gun Safe

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LittleCalm

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I currently have a 725 lb. Champion safe. It's in a closet in our finished basement. The basement floor is carpet over concrete. Year round temp and humidity is very temperate (I have a dehumidifier in the summer and keep a golden rod in the safe at all times). I did not have the safe bolted to the floor because I figured its dry weight plus the weight of everything in it will make it extremely difficult to move. Now I am considering getting another, slightly smaller safe for the same closet. This got me thinking about bolting both safes down. There's the carpet issue to deal with, plus the fact that the concrete floor is only about 4" thick (I have a small safe in another room in the basement and when I went to bolt it to the floor the bolt went through to the fill located under the concrete). I am worried about water coming up through any bolt holes. We live on a hill, have a sump pump, and have a generator to back up the sump. Should I not worry about bolting at all? If I should bolt, how should I do it? I suppose one solution would be to build a 3-4" concrete base over the existing floor and then bolt the safes to that. Probably not that much work -- pull up carpet, make a concrete pad using pre-mix, move safe onto pad, drill and bolt safes to the pad. All thoughts welcome.
 
Purely from a security standpoint, you should bolt your safe. Even if it weights a ton, all a thief would have to do is move it enough to get easy access to the sides/back of the safe where it's easier to drill. Position it somewhere that it would have to be drilled from the front (due to side and back obstructions, like concrete), and bolt it.

If you know enough to put in a slab, from a construction, water table, and moisture perspective, that's what I'd do.
 
If you are worried about water infiltration from anchor installation, you could drill and grout threaded rods into the slab with Hilti HY 150 injectable mortar or similar.
 
Thanks for the replies. I don't think bolting to the wall would work. It's just blue board over studs behind it and the other side is accessible. I have no special expertise in building a concrete slab. I'd just go to Home Depot and by Quickcrete and pour away. Humidity in the basement is low. I figure worst case is that bolting to a platform slab would slow a thief down considerably. I figure it's a day job removing everything from the safe, sliding the safe out of the closet, ripping up the carpet, pouring the slab, moving safe back onto the slab, drilling and bolting. I have a hammer drill.

Correction: probably have to do the drilling the next day to allow concrete to cure.
 
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LittleCalm said:
Thanks for the replies. I have no special expertise in building a concrete slab. I'd just go to Home Depot and by Quickcrete and pour away.
Click to expand...

I like the idea of a slab on top of the floor. I would do that too. I would not penetrate the existing floor even if there were not a sump pump existing. That penetration would provide an additional path for water in a severe storm if the pump is not keeping up to incoming volume.

However, my big concern is how good the pre-mix would be. I can't imagine the compressive strength would be that high (especially if you add a little too much water to the mix) compared to what you get from a mix truck setup for a foundation that has to meet minimum building code requirements. It's a much stronger concrete mix.

I have drilled many concrete floors for anchor bolts. I have also drilled many concrete pads poured from bag mixes. The difference is night and day. I would bet that a 20# hammer would pulverize the bag mix quite easily. You would have to really work at it to break up a mix truck- poured concrete pad.

Just my two cents... [grin]
 
Generally speaking you get poor adhesion when you overlay a concrete slab. If you do it, make sure you properly prep the existing floor to accept the new concrete, (Mesh, Vertical Rebar, Adhesive,Bonding agent etc) otherwise you may just end up with a square piece of concrete just bolted to the bottom of your safe. [hmmm] Like someone said, the primary reason to bolt down a safe is not for the purpose of it being carried away or dragged but to stop someone from tipping it over to get better leverage to pry/drill/cut. From what you are describing I would not drill through the floor. Hydraulic pressure can be ALOT stronger than you think.

Just a thought. If you really want to build up the foundation you could Ram-Set some PT and them bolt the safe to the PT ? This would at a min. make it a little more timely/difficult to move/tip over and get it up off the floor ??
 
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Thanks. Trying to balance cost, effort and quality. Getting a truck in for concrete is not going to be economical for the little amount of concrete needed but I do agree the quality would be much better. Have to believe that a 4"-5" pad of quick crete will add an amount of weight to the bottom of the safe that would make tipping much harder. What about getting a bag of portland cement and sand and making my own cement from that? Mac, I don't know what PT stands for. I assume Ram Set is the powder-actuated nail guns for concrete. Not sure I understand how it would work here.
 
there are different mixes for different application. and yes strength of mix depends on two things - amount cement in the mix and amount of water used. also type and size of aggregate plays a roll but not as vital.

one can buy just the cement instead of a mix and make own concrete mix (would need to buy correct aggregate separately though). My father and two decades back mixed and poured own foundation for our old house 'mud room'. ten years after when people who bought out house decided to add a garage, in place of 'mud room' their contractor said that two guys with sledge hammers will smesh the pad we poured to smithereens in a few hours time. Well, let me tell you - he end up pouring floor slab in the garage to match height of our 'mudroom' foundation.

if he opted in for couple of jackhammers instead of sledgehammers then he would have been more successful with it, but he didn't want to waste another day doing it or rent more tools. i guess it was easier/faster they way he did it.

on other hand, when i was building a 4-season room for my house in place of old rotten deck we had, one guy with a sledge hammer was able to smash concrete pad that was under the deck in tha matter of a day. AFAIK that pad was poured from concrete truck.
 
LittleCalm said:
Thanks. Trying to balance cost, effort and quality. Getting a truck in for concrete is not going to be economical for the little amount of concrete needed but I do agree the quality would be much better. Have to believe that a 4"-5" pad of quick crete will add an amount of weight to the bottom of the safe that would make tipping much harder. What about getting a bag of portland cement and sand and making my own cement from that? Mac, I don't know what PT stands for. I assume Ram Set is the powder-actuated nail guns for concrete. Not sure I understand how it would work here.
Click to expand...


I'm not sure the added weight would matter. The safe just need's to get to it's balance point and then gravity does the rest. I'm thinking a couple strong guys could probably do it ?? Ram-setting the PT to concrete and then bolting the safe to the PT will at least give you something. It will also eliminate your concern of punching through the concrete with an expansion bolt. You'd have to dry fit the PT to see what configuration works best....
 
I had a similar issue where I wanted it off the floor for water protection but wasn't sure of the depth of my slab. I ended up building a 4" high slab out of 2x8 pressure treated lumber. 2 layers sandwiched together using construction adhesive and then I glued the whole thing down to the slab with the same. It's not going any where and theres no way to get under it to lift it up. I then lagged the safe down on top. Cheap easy and effective
 
Appreciate all the feedback. Shawn, nice. I have seen that beast before. So three options:

-- make a concrete slab. I think this is the easiest and most cost effective. Just frame it and pour. But seems a number of you are worried that it won't really bond to the existing floor and can be tipped easily.

-- ramset PT lumber to floor and then bolt safe to PT slab. What size PT to use? I would have to rent ramset tool. I assume I'd use something like 2x8 PT but longest ramset I see at HD is 3". Would that be sufficient? I would make sure that the PT slab is at least as wide as the base of the safe so that you couldn't get a pry bar under it. Also, if using PT, how do I bolt the safe into it? Can't just drop an expansion bolt the way you do with concrete.

-- build PT slab using construction adhesive. Same question as above re: how to bolt safe to PT.

Appreciate all the help with this.
 
LittleCalm said:
Appreciate all the feedback. Shawn, nice. I have seen that beast before. So three options:

-- ramset PT lumber to floor and then bolt safe to PT slab. What size PT to use? I would have to rent ramset tool. I assume I'd use something like 2x8 PT but longest ramset I see at HD is 3". Would that be sufficient? I would make sure that the PT slab is at least as wide as the base of the safe so that you couldn't get a pry bar under it. Also, if using PT, how do I bolt the safe into it? Can't just drop an expansion bolt the way you do with concrete.

-- build PT slab using construction adhesive. Same question as above re: how to bolt safe to PT.

Appreciate all the help with this.
Click to expand...

To the question of bolting to the PT - Assuming your pad is 4" A 3 1/2 inch Stainless steel Lag Bolt with a washer should take care of it. Get the widest one that will fit through the holes in the bottom of the safe
 

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