1. If you enjoy the forum please consider supporting it by signing up for a NES Membership  The benefits pay for the membership many times over.

  2. Dismiss Notice

Portico and Front Porch design help

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by crazymjb, Jun 4, 2019.

  1. silversquirrel

    silversquirrel NES Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,532
    Likes Received:
    822
    Location:
    Gloucester
    The tension tie prevents the outer ends of the beam from spreading. The house keeps the inner ends from spreading. If you push the rafter pair in middle, down with a given force, they will push the 2x8s outward.

    Think of it as a plank. Put a 2x8 on the flat, across 2 sawhorses 5 ft apart, and walk across it. It bends right? Now put 2 in a sandwich and block it in the center, and every 12" .. walk across it. Wont bend. Turn it 90 degrees, now You made a truss for sideways force.

    Science, bitch.
     

  2. djbradles

    djbradles

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2014
    Messages:
    1,017
    Likes Received:
    760
    Location:
    Either here or there
    No doubt you are correct. But with this given build and such a small surface area with very little weight, even with snowpack, I highly doubt those beams would move outward at all. Put several overweight men plus snow on the peak and maybe there would be some flex? Provided his beams are well supported in though the siding and blocked between studs and supported beneath like mine are and with the roofing material further stabilizing do you think there really is a chance of compromise? Serious question. I am not an engineer, drafter, or contractor. I’ve just built many things with careful research over the years.


    ETA: Oh let me correct my statement as I just noticed in the beginning that those are not beams but only 1x6 or so nailed together. I would much rather have s4s Douglas fir for those at a very reasonable cost going in through the siding.
     
  3. crazymjb

    crazymjb

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    9,725
    Likes Received:
    2,885
    Location:
    Green Eggs and...
    The tension tie at 4 feet would be adequate to control for bowing I would think.
     
  4. djbradles

    djbradles

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2014
    Messages:
    1,017
    Likes Received:
    760
    Location:
    Either here or there
    It would
     
  5. crazymjb

    crazymjb

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    9,725
    Likes Received:
    2,885
    Location:
    Green Eggs and...
    Here's the house more or less as it is now. This is from the sales listing 4.5 years ago, but the front is more or less unchanged. As you can see... low on the curb appeal. I'm thinking this will make a big difference, also going to go to black shutters and fix the window wrapping where necessary. Also doing something about the front door.

    [​IMG]
    That looks awesome. I love the real wood, but this house aint fancy enough for it.
     
  6. JJ4

    JJ4 NES Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2013
    Messages:
    2,740
    Likes Received:
    1,133
    Location:
    South Central MA
    I also don't think you'll have a problem.

    Here's the roof framing of the shed I built just by looking at a few sheds. 2x6 24"oc witha 12 foot span. The joists on the lofts and the collar tie on the center keeps it from spreading. So theres 4 feet from the loft joist to the center truss with the tie, then another 4 feet to the loft on the other side. Then again its only been through 3 winters so far. No permits/inspection however.

    20190607_173644.jpg
     
    crazymjb likes this.
  7. crazymjb

    crazymjb

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    9,725
    Likes Received:
    2,885
    Location:
    Green Eggs and...
    Design was approved and permit issued. Caveat is that the rafter supports need to be nailed together. I'll just build out the box with scrap (want it to be 8X8 for aesthetic reasons).
     
  8. crazymjb

    crazymjb

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    9,725
    Likes Received:
    2,885
    Location:
    Green Eggs and...
    Got the 48" holes for the footings dug tonight.

    How much room do I have to play with where on the board the bolts are staggered? I know they have to be at least 2" from the end of the 2*8. If my math is right, I can be at 3" from the bottom and still be in the sill plate and not have to worry about the concrete block at all. I'm really not comfortable digging 2 more piers that close to the block foundation.

    The ledger board (if in same location of current concrete stoop) will sit somewhere between the sill plate and top row of foundation blocks. The underside of the front door is about 10.5" from the block foundation, and I want the ledger about 5-6" below that (since the deck boards are about 1" thick). Code says 1/2" lag, and given my dimensions, that's every 30" alternating top and bottom, and in this case only a 96" run. I also thought of bolting all the way through the block and putting a PT plate in the basement on the other side. The other idea was using a classic expansion anchor in the center of the block where it is solid concrete. I'm honestly more concerned with damaging the blocks than supporting the ledger. But it needs to be to code.

    If I can get away with keeping all lag bolts in the wood, that's what I'd like to do. If not, any guidance on attaching a ledger board to a hollow block foundation? Googling says that acrylic anchors work, but also that sleeve anchors will work. Any idea where I can get galv or other ACQ rated sleeve anchors? Should I just use traditional expansion anchors and do so in the center of the block where it is solid? Per the table, I only need one of 3 total anchors in the block instead of the house based off how the ledger will sit. I'll probably do a few more anchors just for good measure, though.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
  9. Manomet

    Manomet NES Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2008
    Messages:
    1,621
    Likes Received:
    320
    Location:
    SE Mass
    The deck does not have to be anchored to the house.You will need two lateral support brackets if it is. Hang the ledger from large metal nail plates, anchoring into block is not effective nor code compliant.
     
  10. crazymjb

    crazymjb

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    9,725
    Likes Received:
    2,885
    Location:
    Green Eggs and...
    Can you elaborate RE the lateral support brackets and nail plates?

    ETA: Talked to the inspector today when he came to look at the footing holes. He basically said they are just going to check to make sure the frame is secure to the house and they won't be unnecessarily nit-picky, and he doesn't want me risking cracking the concrete block. I'm thinking of using a 2x12 ledger board with the 2X8 joists and hangars flush with the bottom. That would give me room to do a staggered bolt pattern into the sill/band joist without messing with the concrete block, while still getting the deck height ~4-6" below the front entry door as the old stoop currently is. Keep in mind this thing has less than a 5 foot joist span, is 8" off the ground, and is a front entry way.
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
  11. Manomet

    Manomet NES Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2008
    Messages:
    1,621
    Likes Received:
    320
    Location:
    SE Mass
    If you take a large nail plate or strap hanger and nail 3 or 4 of them to the back side of your ledger, attached to the majority of the width of the ledger and leave 4" or more extending up you can hang the ledger from the sill and provide full support. An oversized ledger like the 2x12 suggested can split under load over time and drop. This is not suggested in the code but a better solution than lagging to the block. All decks and porches are required to use a minimum of two lateral support brackets which tie the new deck to framing inside the house. There are a variety of manufactured or home made types which can be used but the intent is to insure the ledger does not separate from the building. It sounds like you re working with a reasonable inspector who is more interested in safety than his domain.
     
    crazymjb likes this.
  12. silversquirrel

    silversquirrel NES Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,532
    Likes Received:
    822
    Location:
    Gloucester
    Yup. This recent addition to the code (ma anyway) is to prevent a big deck from pulling away from the house. Sometimes an overloaded deck can rip the rim joist right out. Think old triple decker, back deck patched together by a cheap landlord, with keg and 20 college kids.

    Your design is just fine.
     
    djbradles likes this.
  13. crazymjb

    crazymjb

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    9,725
    Likes Received:
    2,885
    Location:
    Green Eggs and...
    Here are some updated pics of the progress. Hoping to have the framing all done tomorrow so I can have it inspected and get it finished. We have a family party next Sunday, so hoping the house doesn't look like a sack of ass then. Just saw these comments right now... so I've attached the 2X12 to the house, should I throw some flat brackets on the front to prevent any possible splitting in the future? I might just do that anyway while I have access. Front side/back side shouldn't make a difference I would think.

    If you all see anything obviously f***ed up I need to fix, let me know. I didn't use joist hangers on the front side since the load is carried by the beam sitting on the footings (and the joists are tied in with hurricane ties).

    [​IMG]
    First official use of the Jeep winch. After I loosened up the roof, I figured best to stand back to avoid dropping the thing on myself.

    [​IMG]

    Sledge and elbow grease was effective in demoing the old cinderblock steps. My back is still killing me.

    [​IMG]

    Question on attaching the roof. It appears the original siding is board and batten (and fortunately there is zero rot). I was originally going to run a 2X8 ledger on which the 4X8 supports for the rafters would attach. The old roof was attached directly to that bottom board. So should I use a smaller ledger, or pry that board off and cut back the board and batten and attach directly to the sheathing? I'd rather attach directly to the board and batten as was done previously. My concern there is a 2X8 ledger will allow for pockets for moisture to collect that cannot drain. I know that the flashing along the roof should prevent moisture from making it's way to the ledger, but in the event it does, it seems having a 2X8 on top of that 2X6 with the space between the battens would be bad news for rot purposes. Is it cool to use a 2X6 and some blocking on the ends for the 2X8s supporting the rafters? This whole thing is overbuilt anyway. Let me know if you need me to clarify
     
  14. crazymjb

    crazymjb

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    9,725
    Likes Received:
    2,885
    Location:
    Green Eggs and...
    Framing this up by myself was a huge pain in the ass. Hopefully the rain isn't too bad tomorrow and I can get the sheathing on the roof, get the step built, and have the inspector by to check out the framing so I can piss away some ungodly amount of money on PVC trim.

    [​IMG]
     
    djbradles likes this.
  15. djbradles

    djbradles

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2014
    Messages:
    1,017
    Likes Received:
    760
    Location:
    Either here or there
    My porch took me 9 months and one fall off the roof. I know your pain.
     
    crazymjb likes this.
  16. crazymjb

    crazymjb

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    9,725
    Likes Received:
    2,885
    Location:
    Green Eggs and...
    Porch is still coming along. I'm hoping to have it done in the next day or two. Then I need to replace the trim around the front door. I ended up doing architectural asphalt shingles as the lead time on copper was excessive and I just didn't think this house is worth a $1200 copper roof on the entry way. I have discovered that I hate roofing, don't love being on roofs, and never, ever, want to be a roofer.

    I do have an electrical code question. The electrical inspector was satisfied with the rough-in for the electric. The one thing he "wants to see" for the final inspection is surface mounted electrical boxes between the post wrap (6X6 PVC post wraps over the 4x4) and the light fixtures. If I need to do it, I'll do it, and then pull the boxes off and direct mount the fixtures to the posts after I close out the permit. There is no way that it won't look like shit with electrical boxes between the posts and the fixtures. I have never seen an electrical box mounted on the outside of a house's siding/posts/etc between a fixture and the house. He was telling me I can just recess the box (I can't, the structural 4x4 is immediately behind the PVC wrap, and besides, not worth the trouble). Anyone know off-hand the rule/reference about this? I'd like to NOT go through the the trouble of putting on boxes, then taking them off.
     
  17. crazymjb

    crazymjb

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    9,725
    Likes Received:
    2,885
    Location:
    Green Eggs and...
    @silversquirrel @djbradles @Manomet

    I'm getting ready to put the ceder tongue and groove up on the inside. Do you think a tension rod is 100% necessary here? I only ask because I think I massively overbuilt the thing with 2 6" plywood collar ties (up against the ridge board) per rafter and 4 sets of rafters after the house. The inspector laughed and said this is the most overbuilt front porch he has ever seen and he thinks it is likely the strongest part of the house. And that he wishes more homeowners did construction like me (patting myself on the back here). Anyway, when I was up on the ridge the other day (hate that by the way) I don't think this thing is going anywhere. I think between the plywood sheathing, the rafters, and the collar ties there is zero way those posts are going to separate, especially given the short projection from the house. That said, if you all think the tension rod is necessary I was going to pick up a 1" square aluminum tube and paint it and bolt it in there before doing the ceder. I'll reiterate, I think even that is overkill, just eyeballing this I don't think these rafters would separate with less than 500+ lbs on the very front of the ridge.
     
  18. djbradles

    djbradles

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2014
    Messages:
    1,017
    Likes Received:
    760
    Location:
    Either here or there
    I’m more apt to be concerned moreso with the proper footings. When the footings shift with frost heave over time then that will compromise the structure but if you did go down 48” with sonotubes so that the ground “slides” along the tubes then you’re good.


    By the looks alone it may stand tall for 100 years.
     
    crazymjb likes this.
  19. crazymjb

    crazymjb

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    9,725
    Likes Received:
    2,885
    Location:
    Green Eggs and...
    48" footings with a 4" ~18" pad at the bottom and sonotubes on top :)

    I'm thinking worst case if the posts spread towards the top over time I can ratchet strap them back in and put in a cross-member.
     
    djbradles likes this.
  20. djbradles

    djbradles

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2014
    Messages:
    1,017
    Likes Received:
    760
    Location:
    Either here or there
    I doubt that would happen. I just came across the same design on a old home around the corner but didn’t snap a pic. The beams were clearly made up of 1x’s and they were collapsing in towards center. I would venture to guess this coupled with poor footings are eclipsing it’s demise.
     
    crazymjb likes this.
  21. djbradles

    djbradles

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2014
    Messages:
    1,017
    Likes Received:
    760
    Location:
    Either here or there
    Here’s a shot above my head as we speak while I’m sitting here in a rocker having a Founders breakfast stout. I used an app called “BuildCalc” which was excellent to plug and play the roofing numbers. Those jack rafters laid in very nicely on this hip rafter.

    4A95B94E-011A-4D44-BCCB-991FA92ACDA5.jpeg
     
  22. silversquirrel

    silversquirrel NES Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,532
    Likes Received:
    822
    Location:
    Gloucester
    Well, the proof is in the testing. If you stand up on that thing and jump on it, and it doesnt move... I say go for it, skip the tie. Looks great!
     
    crazymjb likes this.
  23. crazymjb

    crazymjb

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    9,725
    Likes Received:
    2,885
    Location:
    Green Eggs and...
    Skipped the tie. Need to do a bit more finish work... then the fine finish work. I think I'll paint the Azek after I caulk it all. I've heard that makes it look better. Still going back and forth between board and batton or beadboard along the back. My wife ordered some nice (and god knows how expensive) lamps for the posts and matching chandelier.

    Next up will be figuring out how I want to redo the door surround. Not sure if I'm going to try to save the wood or just pull it all off and redo it in PVC.

    [​IMG]
     
    djbradles likes this.
  24. silversquirrel

    silversquirrel NES Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,532
    Likes Received:
    822
    Location:
    Gloucester
    Wow, looks great! Really goes with the house well, a huge improvement to the facade. Nice work.
     
  25. crazymjb

    crazymjb

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2009
    Messages:
    9,725
    Likes Received:
    2,885
    Location:
    Green Eggs and...
    Put some beadboard up in back and got the light fixtures installed. Next up is removing the trim around the front door and deciding if I want to try to salvage/paint it, or replace it. Wife wants the door and surrounding trim painted black and a full height glass screen door. Including permits and dumpster I think we are about ~$3K into this project, $2500 in materials A substantial portion of that was all the PVC boards, probably at least ~$1500. The ceder for the ceiling was also a couple hundred. Glad I skipped on the copper.

    Once it's all done I still need to go around and plug all the screw/nail holes and probably throw a coat of white paint on the PVC as in person it doesn't look as nice as painted wood, and it gets dirty easily. Also need to get back up on that roof and install some J channel on the siding, but it's too damn hot right now for that.

    [​IMG]
     
    djbradles likes this.
  26. djbradles

    djbradles

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2014
    Messages:
    1,017
    Likes Received:
    760
    Location:
    Either here or there
    Excellent facade upgrade bud


    My porch/deck cost me $7k total in materials
     
    crazymjb likes this.

Share This Page