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Portico and Front Porch design help

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by crazymjb, Jun 4, 2019.

  1. crazymjb

    crazymjb

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    Hi all. I started a thread a ways back looking for quotes from masons, etc, to get this built. It ended up being cost prohibitive. I called the town and since the design is under 50 square feet (it's 5*8) I need not worry about any setbacks. They are going to want framing drawings and drawings showing the footings. My guess is this is better than what most homeowners provide, but I wanted to run it by you before running back and forth to the town, especially because permitting is slow right now.

    My main questions are around the portico. From talking to some friends I understand I'll probably need a ridge beam. My wife wants the front of the portico open (if possible), and a light hanging from the center. The portico is also going to be 5*8, framed with 2*8s. Also, curious on thoughts regarding metal or copper roofing rather than shingles. My wife wants copper. I plan on facing everything in Azek.

    Any and all input welcome.

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
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  2. Reptile

    Reptile NES Member

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    You'll need more support for your (machine-gun) nest.
     
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  3. icyclefar

    icyclefar NES Member

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  4. silversquirrel

    silversquirrel NES Member

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    If you use a ridge beam, one end is supported at the house framing, the far end needs to be supported by a truss, which needs to be supported by the two posts, then down to the sonotubes. Notch the posts for the deck beam. No need to cantilever the deck beam because you will have steps.

    Otherwise you need some rafter ties in the bottom third of the rafters. You also need a ridge board.

    If it was a treehouse aka no inspection, you could lap the rafter and nail the piss out of the joint or use plywood gusset plates.
     
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  5. crazymjb

    crazymjb

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    I was hoping at most I could get away with at most plywood gusseting on the rafters. How do builders get away with something like this:
    [​IMG]
    Is it just that the structure on either side takes any outward lateral load? Do they use some non-wood framing? That is about the same width, if not wider, than what I am trying to do, and much deeper.

    Is this more along the lines of what I'll have to do:
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
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  6. silversquirrel

    silversquirrel NES Member

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    Left side cant move, its up against the house. Right side pretty well braced by the flat roof, which is a diaphram fixed to,the house.
    Plus that little roof doesnt carry much snow load. Spreading forces are low. In your case Gussets should do it. Know how to butt weld steel plates?

    Im not a fan of that look. Dont see the point, but im more historic/traditional. Todays buliders rarely respect the classical greek temple that all this detail came from. They throw every detail they know at it, and see what sticks, The portico wants to have a triangle up there. The dog ears look stupid. The clear finished ceiling looks nice, but you dont need to see it from across the street. Walk under, look up, then be impressed.
    The old school carpenters had pattern books based on classical architecture.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
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  7. dingbat

    dingbat

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    They get away with it by "repairing" something that already existed, getting a stamp from an engineer, or being the brother in law of the building inspector.
     
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  8. crazymjb

    crazymjb

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    If by dog ears you mean the little returns under the edges of the roof I agree those look dumb. All I know is wife wants a higher roof inside the portico with a hanging light, and ideally wants the front open.

    As far as steel gussets go, I have a friend that I already discussed this with, and he's happy to weld some up for me. I actually thought about welding a steel gusset for just the front with a built in ridge beam hanger. This project isn't worthy of having to get any actual engineers to sign off on it... the building inspector just needs to see some framing drawings to issue me the permit. I obviously want to make sure it's structurally sound, but it's not exactly some massive architectural challenge.
     
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  9. dingbat

    dingbat

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    The engineer is for a unique structure that is outside standard construction methods. No matter how small a job. I've worked on renovations where they had to get an engineer to stamp drawings for plywood sistering of floor joists just so a tub drain line could have the proper pitch on it. Got in to the bottom third of the joist by about half an inch. If you want to gusset the rafters instead of collar ties, you'd probably need a stamp unless there's something in the code that covers it and your building inspector is familiar with it.

    Fwiw, A buddy of mine just built the exact same thing on his front porch, he is an engineer, and he just did an open, timber framed, style truss at the front. Has the hanging light in the peak and the whole deal looks quite nice in my opinion.
     
  10. silversquirrel

    silversquirrel NES Member

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    1/2" plwd Gussets at each rafter, say 2x8s 16" on center, should do it. A steel gusset with hanger for a beam now puts half the ridge load on the outer rafter pair, rafters will want to bend lower down, and thrust outward. so now you need to run the steel plate all the way to the bottom of the rafter, making a flitch beam truss. Betcha that wil work.
     
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  11. crazymjb

    crazymjb

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    I'll come up with a couple drawings and bring them to the building department and see what they think I guess. The timber framed ones look awesome... It's just that we don't have the house to go with open timber framing. Can I get away with a rafter tie on only the 4th rafter (4 feet from where it attaches to the house), or only on the last rafter? How about alternate materials for the rafter tie, IE painted steel?

    [​IMG]
     
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  12. silversquirrel

    silversquirrel NES Member

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    Much better. Looks like steel pipe. Thread the ends and hidden connections in the beams. The vertical rod keeps the tie from sagging. No dog ears. Rule of thumb is rafter ties every 4 ft.
     
  13. crazymjb

    crazymjb

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    Is this going to be an inspector discretion type thing? Obviously steel has a much better tensile strength than lumber, in fact I'm sure I could look up the numbers, but will that be no engineer, no go?

    As to rafter tie spacing, the entire portico roof will project only just about 5 feet from the house. The rafter that aligns with the posts is 4 feet from the rafter that will be up against the house. Can I get away with only placing a rafter tie on this rafter? I'll have some clearer drawings tomorrow. Also, I understand I need a ridge board even if not taking the roof load?
     
  14. 01906

    01906 NES Member

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    You just need a good engineer.
    "I have a good guy he's one of us"
    He will stamp anyting within reason. For enough$$. That being said I don't do anything that won't stand the test of time. But some code requirements are Overkill.
    Especially with adopting DCA-6
     
  15. crazymjb

    crazymjb

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    I have tons of friends... who have actively avoided a PE lol

    Once I get my life on track I'm going to start chipping away at my engineering degree since the Guard pays for it. Hopefully don't have to retake calc and physics, but probably will.
     
  16. crazymjb

    crazymjb

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    [​IMG]
    Updated design with 1/8"*2" flat stock as the rafter tie, and a ridge board (which I guess is required now). All framing is still done in 2*8. Thoughts?
     
  17. silversquirrel

    silversquirrel NES Member

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    Use solid 4x6 fir for the beams. 4x4 posts. Sit the beam on the post with a simpson connector. Use outrigger blocking for the overhanging rafter pair, just like its done your second pictured house. Use threaded rod maybe in a pipe to dress it up, for your tie. Drill holes in the beams for the threaded rod, countersink and nut and an 1.5" square heavy washer, outboard on each beam.

    Simpson CBT4Z Concealed Beam Tie - Zmax Finish

    Not a registered engineer, just ways ive seen it done. Architectural Drafter. Seen it all.
    No dog ears.. please.
     
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  18. crazymjb

    crazymjb

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    Don't need those hidden ties as everything will be wrapped in white azek anyway. Thats why I'm boxing those two outside 2*8s to make an 8*8 box.
     
  19. EMTDAD

    EMTDAD

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    Yeah. Don't do this
    20190605_191630.jpg
    Seen on my walk tonight.
     
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  20. crazymjb

    crazymjb

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    Design is coming along:

    [​IMG]

    Pretty sure I have teh proportions down now. 6x6 posts, 8x8 supports for the rafters to sit on, and everything framed in 2*8s and wrapped in 1/2" azek.

    Anyone know where to get AZEK or similar post wraps? I know I can get facing boards, but I also know they make post wraps with and without designs for the two main columns. My wife wants more detail (shocking). Also thinking of putting a light on each post rather than the house, as well as a hanging lantern inside the roof.
     
  21. Woodsloafer

    Woodsloafer

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  22. daddysuperfly

    daddysuperfly

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  23. JJ4

    JJ4 NES Member

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    This was kicked around a bit - but why is a ridge board actually needed here?

    Note the difference between a ridge beam and a ridge board. A ridge beam is structural and supported on both ends - it transfers load from the top of the rafters to the ends of the ridge beam and then down its support. A ridge board, afaik, doesn't actually offer any structural support. If you build trusses with gussets, you'd have no ridge board. Depending on how the trusses are engineered (or guess-genered), you may need additional structuring to keep the walls from spreading (e.g. collar tie, tension rod, etc).

    I guess I'm just not sure why the original drawing was done with trusses and then later drawings have a ridge board.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2019
  24. crazymjb

    crazymjb

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    I read somewhere ridge boards are required by code (haven't actually checked, but a 1*10 is easy enough to draw in there). I'll probably go with a tension rod in place of a rafter tie if possible. I think if anything the ridge board makes gusseting where the rafters meet more difficult. This thing is pretty small (5*8 porch) so I'll ask when I'm applying for the permit later today.
     
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  25. silversquirrel

    silversquirrel NES Member

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    Its about how you build. Drawing and building are not the same. Think about how you build a big roof. You put up a ridge board or beam. Now you have something to nail a rafter to, set rafter spacing, and the ridge ties the roof together and holds it square while nail the sheathing. With gussets, you could still add blocking between pairs, where a ridge board would go.

    Have fun with it. Pics when your done!
     
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  26. crazymjb

    crazymjb

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    I could have sworn I read somewhere that ridge boards were now required, period. Gusseting and blocking was my original plan. Here is the rendering more or less in final form. Does anyone have a good source for standing seam copper roofing (wife insists, I want shingles)?

    [​IMG]
    Should I be using regular facing boards (azek) on the bottom sides of the rafter tails, or is there some special vented soffet stuff I should use? Currently the plan is to keep the interior "unfinished" and paint it white, similar to the picture I posted a bit earlier in the page.

    Assuming all goes well and I get the permit, plan is to get the footings in, demo the old steps, build the new steps, and then remove the old roof and start on the new one. I'm potentially going to replace all the vinyl siding on the upper part of the garrison depending on how it's looking when I get into it. I have a feeling the vinyl siding on the house is just over the old wooden siding.
     
  27. silversquirrel

    silversquirrel NES Member

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    Run the tension tie between the beams, not over them.
    Use solid beams, or they could bow out in the middle. Or at least solid block infill between the 2xs.
    Getting closer there, Howard Roark.
     
  28. crazymjb

    crazymjb

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    You really think there is a risk of 2X8s bowing if they only project 5 feet from the house and have a tension tie at the 4 foot mark? I can definitely throw some blocking in there if need be, I guess. Also, is it acceptable to move the tension tie to the beams rather than on the rafters? I know mechanically it should be fine, not sure what the building inspector will be looking for (if he even approves my design). Dropped the plans off at the city yesterday.
     
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  29. djbradles

    djbradles NES Member

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    530A758C-B34E-4C5D-9571-B762A5C00E13.jpeg 40A2C755-E7BB-40E1-8E6B-E507B641B041.jpeg FD3379FD-B7AD-42DE-A64A-04BBD54E9E5F.jpeg Nice looking design so far @crazymjb

    Just for some ideas here’s my build from 3 years ago. About 20’x8’ with a bump out. Hip roop. 4x8 fir beams on those structural columns. Mahogany decking and azek trim boards. Ada railings. Deck set “1/4 below code requirements for railing around. I built the whole thing from the ground up and enjoyed the roof geometry the most.
     

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  30. djbradles

    djbradles NES Member

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    They will not bow at 5’


    ETA: this back porch replaced a 5x7 full pediment porch that stood unchanged for 85 years on footings that were maybe 2 feet deep in my zone which calls for 48”. You’ll be fine. We over build things nowadays.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2019
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