Poll: for those who carry a DA/SA auto...

Safety on or off for carrying DA/SA auto?

  • Safety on

    Votes: 16 26.7%
  • Safety off

    Votes: 27 45.0%
  • Depends on the gun

    Votes: 17 28.3%

  • Total voters
    60

45collector

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I had a conversation the other day with gent who said it was completely unsafe to carry a DA/SA auto with the safety off. I told him I used to carry my Walther PPK/s with the safety off, (hammer down, of course) and he thought I was an idiot. I tried to explain how the firing mechanism works on such guns like Berettas, Walthers and Makarovs, but he wouldn't hear it.

So, for those who carry a DA/SA auto (and not a de-cocker only safety, like a Ruger), do you carry with the safety on or off, and why?
 
I had a conversation the other day with gent who said it was completely unsafe to carry a DA/SA auto with the safety off. I told him I used to carry my Walther PPK/s with the safety off, (hammer down, of course) and he thought I was an idiot. I tried to explain how the firing mechanism works on such guns like Berettas, Walthers and Makarovs, but he wouldn't hear it.

So, for those who carry a DA/SA auto (and not a de-cocker only safety, like a Ruger), do you carry with the safety on or off, and why?

deleted.
 
I don't see a notable difference between the long, heavy DA trigger on a DA/SA semi and the long, heavy DA trigger on a S&W 642.

Now that I'm thinking about it, the only carry pistols I've ever used that needed another action besides pulling the trigger were a 1911 and a P7M8.
 
I usually carry a 3rd gen smith auto (CS9). The safety acts as a decocker and I treat it as such. The DA trigger pull is heavy enough that it's no less dangerous than a DA revolver.
 
ALWAYS decocked with safety off, unless it's a Sig, in which case, there is no safety to worry about. [grin]

-Mike
 
Ruger P90 with Safety/decocker. Carried with the safety on. Just so that there is no mistake that if I mean to use it, it was not an AD/ND.

Yes, it does take about 0.5 second longer to get it into action than the SA Para, but zero chance for AD/ND argument from anybody.
 
Couldn't you argue that carrying without safety is dangerous only for the fact that the safety could become engaged accidentally on a draw stroke? Unless you train in such a way that you always check and confirm the safety is off in the draw stroke it could cost you valuable time in a life or death situation if it does become engaged and you are unaware of it.

When I carry I carry a Glock so I don't need to worry about this kind of stuff. [wink]
 
Couldn't you argue that carrying without safety is dangerous only for the fact that the safety could become engaged accidentally on a draw stroke? Unless you train in such a way that you always check and confirm the safety is off in the draw stroke it could cost you valuable time in a life or death situation if it does become engaged and you are unaware of it.

1) Can't happen with a Sig [wink]
2) As taught by Ayoob at LFI-1, draw stroke on a S&W third gen turns off safety.
3) HK USPc safety is highly unlikely to be turned on during draw stroke. You could accidentally decock, however.

I don't have any problem manipulating safeties during the draw and before holstering. It just takes a some training and practice. Not rocket science.
 
1) Can't happen with a Sig [wink]
2) As taught by Ayoob at LFI-1, draw stroke on a S&W third gen turns off safety.
3) HK USPc safety is highly unlikely to be turned on during draw stroke. You could accidentally decock, however.

I don't have any problem manipulating safeties during the draw and before holstering. It just takes a some training and practice. Not rocket science.

This is my point. Having the safety off is fine, as long as you still train as though the safety could be on (if it has a safety). That way your covered if it happens to be on. A good draw stroke should disengage the safety (or confirm that it is disengaged) for any firearm that does in fact have a safety.
 
All of my DA/SA's are sigs for the most part. Of the ones that aren't, I don't carry them with the exception of the H&K. Short of having the H&K in a full kydex holster, the safety won't stay on because something invariably hits it to turn it off. Clearly the holster mfgs assume it will be off because they all mold with the safety off. I guess those blue guns must have the safety off and they mold with that.
 
Stress can cause one to do things with extra pressure. But there is a solution for that -- Variant 9 [wink]


It's a solution to a non problem- even if you did decock it, you still have a
gun with a live trigger.... just have to pull it a bit further. [grin]

-Mike
 
It's a solution to a non problem- even if you did decock it, you still have a
gun with a live trigger.... just have to pull it a bit further. [grin]

I've got an HK USPc. The DA trigger is a problem. A big problem. Way too heavy. Way too much stacking. Just completely nasty.
 
1) Can't happen with a Sig [wink]
2) As taught by Ayoob at LFI-1, draw stroke on a S&W third gen turns off safety.
3) HK USPc safety is highly unlikely to be turned on during draw stroke. You could accidentally decock, however.

I don't have any problem manipulating safeties during the draw and before holstering. It just takes a some training and practice. Not rocket science.

Very well said. Thank you.
 
I've got an HK USPc. The DA trigger is a problem. A big problem. Way too heavy. Way too much stacking. Just completely nasty.

I agree that they're often fairly bad, but I doubt it's so bad as to dramatically affect the outcome of a "social encounter".

Further, a nice wolff mainspring and a detail polish on some friction surfaces (hammer, trigger bar/channel, hammer strut) will often result in a DA pull that's best described as "way less nasty".

ETA: Hey, at least it's not like pulling the trigger on a DA ruger centerfire auto.. [laugh] If you want to see stacking.....

-Mike
 
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Thanks for the input so far! I knew the guy was just being a stubborn blow-hard, he just would not listen to my reasoning. I've never owned an HK or a Sig, so I can't comment on the safety mechanisms of those. I have mostly older design guns. One of the good reasons for me to switch from PPK/s to Makarov for mid-size gun carry was that the safety is swiched off in a similar motion on the Makarov as a 1911. So even though I've been carrying the Mak with the safety off, I still tend to swipe the right thumb down after clearing leather. With the Walther, I never wanted to carry with the safety on anyways because it was opposite the muscle memory of drawing a 1911.
 
Thanks for the input so far! I knew the guy was just being a stubborn blow-hard, he just would not listen to my reasoning. I've never owned an HK or a Sig, so I can't comment on the safety mechanisms of those. I have mostly older design guns. One of the good reasons for me to switch from PPK/s to Makarov for mid-size gun carry was that the safety is swiched off in a similar motion on the Makarov as a 1911. So even though I've been carrying the Mak with the safety off, I still tend to swipe the right thumb down after clearing leather. With the Walther, I never wanted to carry with the safety on anyways because it was opposite the muscle memory of drawing a 1911.

Grin, you do what makes you feel comfortable and what you are aware of. Carrying a 1911 on "half cock" to me, is "normal". Folks may agree/disagree, but the bottom line is yourself and what you know....or think you know. [wink]
 
I've never owned an HK or a Sig, so I can't comment on the safety mechanisms of those.
DA/SA Sigs have a decocker, but no manual safety. They are designed to be carried chamber full, hammer decocked.

HK USP Variant 1s have a combined decocker/safety lever. They can be safely carried in a number of ways, including:

- chamber full, hammer down, safety off
- chamber full, hammer down, safety on
- chamber full, hammer cocked, safety on

So even though I've been carrying the Mak with the safety off, I still tend to swipe the right thumb down after clearing leather.

I'm not familiar with the Makarov, so I just can't say whether it is safe to carry with the safety off or not. Most modern DA/SA guns that have safeties (e.g., Beretta 92, S&W third generation, HK USP, etc.) are safe to carry hammer down, safety on or hammer down safety off.
 
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Carrying a 1911 on "half cock" to me, is "normal". Folks may agree/disagree, but the bottom line is yourself and what you know....or think you know. [wink]

I would not recommend carrying a 1911 on half-cock. The half-cock notch is designed to intercept the sear if the hammer nose breaks. Carry it cocked and locked, or hammer down chamber empty.
 
DA/SA Sigs have a decocker, but no manual safety. They are designed to be carried chamber full, hammer decocked. HK USP Variant 1s have a combined decocker/safety lever. They can be safely carried in a number of ways, including: - chamber full, hammer down, safety off - chamber full, hammer down, safety on - chamber full, hammer cocked, safety on I'm not familiar with the Makarov, so I just can't say whether it is safe to carry with the safety off or not. Most modern DA/SA guns that have safeties (e.g., Beretta 92, S&W third generation, HK USP, etc.) are safe to carry hammer down, safety on or hammer down safety off.
The Makarov is a beautifully designed pistol. It's one of the most simple semiauto's ever designed. Reliability is top notch too. You can fieldstrip the gun, look inside the guts and get a pretty good idea of how everything works together. The gun has no firing pin spring, as Nikolai Makarov designed it in the early 50's, because he figured the FP did not have enough mass to dent the primer with anything besides a full strike from the hammer. With a good condition sear spring, the hammer is only allowed to travel forward enough when the trigger is pulled all the way. The Makarov even passed California's drop tests.
I would not recommend carrying a 1911 on half-cock. The half-cock notch is designed to intercept the sear if the hammer nose breaks. Carry it cocked and locked, or hammer down chamber empty.
+1 to that, although some would say you can carry a series 80 style FP safety gun with the hammer down on a loaded chamber. I still wouldn't do it though. On the series 80 style, the half-cock notch is only another ledge, it doesn't capture the sear like a series 70. Ever see someone disable the FP block on a series 80? [shocked]
 
If it has a safety, it's on. But my CCW is a Kahr K40. It's safety is the nice long DA trigger pull. [wink]
 
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1) Can't happen with a Sig [wink]
2) As taught by Ayoob at LFI-1, draw stroke on a S&W third gen turns off safety.
3) HK USPc safety is highly unlikely to be turned on during draw stroke. You could accidentally decock, however.

I don't have any problem manipulating safeties during the draw and before holstering. It just takes a some training and practice. Not rocket science.

I know Massad and have a lot of respect for him but disagree with him on DA/SA guns; 3d generation S&Ws in particular. I carried both a S&W 6906 and 4516-1 for personal protection and on the job as an armed guard and courier. I also competed in IPSC matches with these guns in a duty rig for a couple of seasons.

I learned very quickly that my rather small hand would not allow me to disengage the thumb safety; I simply couldn't reach it. Attempts to disengage the safety while drawing the pistol produced questionable results in a situation where only 100% reliability is acceptable. The acid test is simple; grasp the pistol in the firing position and attempt to manipulate the safety. If you can reliably manipulate the safety in this position, by all means use it. If not, you better leave it off. A DA/SA gun with the safety off is just as safe a a DA revolver and no one has complained about the lack of a safety on a revolver.

I learned this the hard way. Thousands of rounds fired in practice and competition. You won't believe what I learned about thumb snap duty holsters, but that's another story.
 
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