Police Shooting in Bellingham

Yea, that's nuts.

But I don't know if you remember the shooting in Ohio several years ago. Same thing. Fired a whole clip and didn't hit the guy.

But IIRC, Len said that most LEOs don't do any practicing, or training. So that would explain it. If they are only shooting their pistols when they are qualifying. Then how would you expect to hit anything under a stressful situation?
 
I guess that's just one more reason why they don't want us to have guns. If the cops can't shoot then they definitely don't want armed citizens out there who can.

[roll]
 
I hope that some other Ravens (such as Jim or Andy) pipe up here, as they have more knowledge of stress shooting than I. I also hope that JonJ adds something here.

First some basics (specific to MA, but I understand it is quite similar in other states) to LE firearms training:

- MA Chiefs of Police Assn define the ONLY APPROVED training and qualification course for MA LEOs. It is implemented by all the police academies. Problem is that you have only desk-jockeys defining street needs! Most of these guys haven't been on the street in so long that they have no idea what works/doesn't work. If they allowed street cops who are firearms trainers define the training needs, the training/qualification would be a lot more realistic! OK, so much for my rant.

- From 1978 until 1998, all the police "training" and qualification shooting with handguns consisted of shooting at a B-27 from various fixed positions. When I last qualified with MCJTC (before they changed their name to MPTC) in 2000, they changed the targets to "milk bottles" (PC targets), but the course of fire is still the same. Minimum passing score used to be 70% and is now 80%. I have witnessed many FT LEOs having difficulty getting a passing score, and I've had some veteran officers tell me that they hadn't had a passing score in many years!

- NO approved standard LE shooting course involves moving while shooting or shooting at moving targets. Yet, as Gabe Suarez (was a LEO for 15 years) told us in our courses, real bad guys don't stand still and if the LEO doesn't move and shoot, he's likely to get shot in the best of circumstances!

- Most LEOs in this area are not gun folks, they know nothing about guns, would probably prefer not to carry one at all if given the option, and only practice when someone will pay them OT, provide free ammo and clean the gun for them when they are thru shooting. [Those that belong to gun clubs, participate in gun forums, etc. are usually notable exceptions to the above statement.]

- I sent Email invitations and/or spoke with ~10 LEOs about the superb shooting courses that Jim and Andy brought to this area < www.neshooters.com >. Not one of them expressed any interest in taking these courses!

- Although most of the various course attendees have taken similar courses before and thus have some experience with shooting on the move, most of us botched it when we were presented with a stress shooting situation by our instructors.

- According to Gabe Suarez (who has survived four shootings in his LE career), most shootings are over in 5-10 seconds!

- Most LE carry ammo will not penetrate a car body and continue doing the job! Hitting someone driving in a car is a non-trivial task.
 
You'd be absolutely amazed at what huge amounts of adreniline will do to your shooting skills, no matter how much and how well you practice. I've got a friend who's a fairly good shot and practices more than most police squads/divisions do combined. He decided that he needed to get a different job after making one arrest. He was not only within contact range, but hactually had one hand on the perp when the guy decided to press his luck. They both emptied their handguns from within 6 feet of each other. At the end my friend was completely untouched (though he did have a bullet hole in his jacket); the perp had a graze on his side and a through shot to his upper leg. They were both slightly luckier than average, but that sort of thing is far from rare.

Ken
 
You can't hear, you cant feel your hands, you vision start tunnel, your heart feels like it's going to pop out of your chest, and it's over in a second. You'd be surprised how difficult it becomes.
 
Well, not completely over. Even if nobody's hit and there's no legal/political/job repercussions, you've still got a hell of a lot a adreneline in your system. So as soon as the threat's gone, you find yourself shaking as if you were stark naked at the south pole; you're so nauseous that more likely than not you end up puking your guts out, and unless some more excrement hits the fan or you go out and run 10 miles or so to work it out of your system, you end up with the mother of all headaches in a few hours. After all that's over, you may or may not get a visit from PTSD. At least you'll find yourself waking up suddenly and unpleasantly in the middle of the night for a good long time.

Ken
 
I am sure it's tough. Very nerve racking. I am just not satisfied knowing this guy is still alive. Excuse me but this guy should never ever have the option to do this again. I think in situations like this, all shots fired should be on a shoot to kill basis, and LE's should be trained in delivering the package. It would be a shame if the 2 obviously young (by looking at their start dates) officers were killed because someone didn't feel the need to add moving simulations in their training. I hope I didn’t give anybody the impression that I could do better.

B.J.
 
As much as I want to agree with TypeO. I can' totally see where Ken is coming from. I've never been in a situation where I was being shot at... But I've done some stupid things, and one where I thought I was going to die...I wasn't. But I didn't know that at the time.

And I can remember the feelings that he's talking about. And I can think that trying to be steady to shoot would be hard.

But I think that if LEOs are to be out there. They do need more up to date training. It's a shame that they are as Len describes.
 
I just find it reprehensible that the very people that are expected to be able to defend our lives (because if we were supposed to be able to defend ourselves it wouldn't be so f*ing hard to get a full carry license) can't even shoot.
It should be absolutely required that every patrol officer take annual target tests as well as have Continuing Education classes on carrying and holster draw techniques.

God it pisses me off just thinking about it.
 
Most LEO's have to qualify at least once a year. I've seen them at the range (and it's obvious that they only shoot once a year). That being said, there's also other departments that require them to shoot once a quarter.

I have been on the receiving end of an adreneline rush. It's not pleasant. You get tunnel vision, your hearing fails, your motor skills go down hill. And yeah, when all's said and done, Ken's description of the shaking is spot on. The tough part that you have to focus on is breaking the tunnel vision, which isn't easy. Constant practice doesn't eliminate this from happening, however, constant practice will train your muscles to move without having to think about it, because at a time when you need it, your brain basically becomes numb.
 
Lynne's got the key right there. Anything that you hope to be able to do, your muscles need to be able to do all on their own. If you need your brain to tell them what to do, or even to assist, you're in deep trouble. Anything you want to do that isn't completely automatic just isn't going to happen. Also, if you were counting on any fine motor skills, you might as well just lie down and die, because there won't be any around.

Ken
 
Just think back to any car accident you've been in. I had one where a person cut right out in front of me on a snow covered road.

I've taken the Skip Barber defensive driving class, I can put my 20' truck into a power slide and drive out of it. I can negotiate (without anti-lock brakes) slick slopes. I can tell when my brakes are about to lock up. etc etc etc.

In this case, All I saw was suddenly a car 'RIGHT THERE' and all that 'skill' went out the window. I slamed the brakes which stalled the engine (manual transmission) I have no memory of pumping, but I know I did release and attempt the 'threshold braking' that I'd learned as I was completely out of vaccume assist when I hit. I don't know if I turned the truck or if the slide did it for me. In either case, I was turned in the wrong direction (headed to her direction of travel than try to pass behind)

As much as you might want to think you will react in a panic situation, you won't. Your body will simply do what feels 'natural'.

I ran an IDPA stage once where Nothing was 'normal'. I did it to see how people would react. Now, everyone knew it was a shooting stage, so they knew they would be going for their gun. But I didn't start them in the 'expected' manner.

I go tthem comfortable, made some jokes about the props, drew their attention to a photo of the 'no shoot' telling them it was their daughter and then changed my tone to a serious one and said "She is screaming behind that door" and triggered the 'GO' signal on the timer.

The reaction of every shooter was one of total surprise and it took seconds for them to react. And then, flustered from that, some fumbled in opening the door. And a few, seeing the targets charging at them made nice solid hits on the no shoot.

Your body can, does, and will take over and perform without any input from you. I've heard more than my share of stories from people who tell it as if they were standing there watching someone else do it all.

The hardest thing to train in defensive shooting is NOT the shooting, but forcing the shooter to IGNORE the shooting and focus on 'solving the problem'. Because when it happens for real, you won't be able to think about the front sight or alignmnet, or anything else. You will react. Your body will begin to 'solve the problem' without you. You need to have enough experience in making quick choices, finding cover, and all the other 'tactical' skills so that THOSE also become second nature. In many respects, IPSC, IDPA, and other shooting sports are POOR training as you can plan and follow a procedure. It's dealing with the surprise and unknown that is hard to simulate and what is needed to truly train.

Just as with the auto accident, while I knew what I should have done, I don't practice it often. What I do practice every day is 'if you want to stop, hit the brakes'.

As for officers being bad shots. Most of it comes from the fact that shooting is simply not that big a part of the job. And few officers truly understand that skill at arms is not something the department gets a lot of return on investment, but that they personally might find HIGHLY valuable. Just ask Sgt. Bill Kennedy of the Boston PD some time just what he thinks. Actually, it's probably the same for any LEO that has actually 'been there'.
 
I have never been a situation like we are describing, so I can only relate what others tell me.

- From my defensive handgun training, it seems that most instructors talk about the tunnel vision. I do know that Gabe Suarez told us that was BS and it never happened to him! Don't know if everyone is correct (it could be a "different strokes for different folks" sort of thing).

- NONE of the qualification "training" we took taught us anything about drawing from the holster. They just announced "draw from the holster and fire" but never told us about any techniques to use, etc.

- NOTHING was taught about safety regarding firearms at any LE training that I ever took. I can hope that the FT academy gets some training on this, but the Reserve/Intermittent academy that I attended certainly did not. Nothing about range safety was even breathed during any qual that I was at.

- Universally the self-defense trainers tell us that we will react the way that we train, so we MUST TRAIN THE WAY WE WANT TO REACT! Ergo, where we carry the gun, what gun we carry, the manual of arms, etc. all have to be the same all the time or we'll botch it for sure if the SHTF!

- Given the above, every range prohibits drawing/shooting from the holster, moving and shooting, etc. All tactics that we MUST practice if we are going to be able to effectively defend ourselves.

- Multiply this problem for LEOs, where they only practice 1-2x/year and never practice moving while shooting!

I know the problem, but don't know the practical solution for those of us who don't have a range out back of our homes or a sandpit/mountain range to go practice at! Here are some substitutes for partial training for our environment.

Partial solution for learning how to draw properly, with CCW clothing etc. while removing the risk of a ND . . . buy a blue/red gun that is molded the same as your personal carry gun, practice drawing with that setup.

Partial solution for learning how to fire on the move, buy an expensive (not the $25 variety) Airsoft model that is identical to your carry gun, practice in your back yard and you can build this skill safely.
 
A few years back, I saw a deomonstration of various calibers on a car. I've tried to find a link or other reference, but no luck. I seem to recall it was done after the famous FBI shooting in Miami to show that the cars themselves made for fairly good cover even from the .223 used by one shooter.

Basically, most carry ammo will not penetrate the passenger compartment, and even if it does has little if any energy left. Even common rifle rounds are stopped fairly well by the equipment in most car doors.

Glass is another issue. Windshields are deceptively strong, and the aerodynamic shapes actually deflect blows quite easily. Even side windows will tend to stop a round as it shatters.

At the time of the video, the only really effective round that police generally had was a shotgun slug - which not only penetrated nicely, but actually went out the other side as well in many cases.

The conclusion was to avoid shooting at a vehicle due to the more likely chance of collateral damage unless you had a good headshot from the side. And even in that case, forward movement of the vehicle made the shot unlikely to succeed.

For this reason, police now tend to use their cars or road devices (barriers, spikes, etc) to stop people in vehicles than shooting.
 
Chris said:
In many respects, IPSC, IDPA, and other shooting sports are POOR training as you can plan and follow a procedure. It's dealing with the surprise and unknown that is hard to simulate and what is needed to truly train.
Click to expand...

So, Chris, can you design a stage where you DON'T tell us the order to shoot in, but just spring it on us cold? Like the BUG stage that I missed, but with more targets?

Would that be more realistic, or would it not be an IDPA stage anymore because of it?

Ross
 
Rules require a published CoF. I ran the BUG as a 'bonus".

It is possible using barriers and such to 'set-up' less known situations, but it is a lot of work to ensure that the 'experience' of the shooter is the same for everyone. ie. Your setup if you change it does not favor one shooter over another.

As you can imagine, it does increase the complexity of the stage a lot.

Also, many targets isn't that realistic. I'd rather do more low target count stages where you don't know if another might pop out or not.

Other issues involve getting people to react realisticly. For example, how would you force people to move quickly? I can't come up with a way that works. I'm thinking of building a moving target sytem over the winter which will help, but it still doesn't get the shooter moving.

It is VERY VERY hard to simulate real life in a 'game'. I can set up drills that confound the eyes or challenge perceptions on distance. I can hide things from Shooter #1, but how do you keep the rest from talking? I can make things move, but hwo can I have that movement erratic and still similar to each shooter? How do I get across the idea that "They are shooting at you so you want to RUN AWAY"? How do I incorporate all the reality and still keep it a 'fun' event for everyone? (including the match director that wants to pull his hair out when a shooter finds a 'hole' in the rules to 'game' the stage?)

I suppose the solution is to just accept the environment for what it is, but that's not me. (^_^)
 
Chris said:
How do I get across the idea that "They are shooting at you so you want to RUN AWAY"? How do I incorporate all the reality and still keep it a 'fun' event for everyone?
Click to expand...

I have this mental image of a remote controlled Airsoft gun mounted on one of the targets... [twisted]
 
Lynne said:
Not to get O/T (or is it too late?), but what does IDPA stand for again? I'm having a brain cramp....
Click to expand...

International Defensive Pistol Association... and yes, dear, it's too late. [lol]

Ross
 
dwarven1 said:
I have this mental image of a remote controlled Airsoft gun mounted on one of the targets... [twisted]
Click to expand...

Except that it isn't a 'threat'. Such an event might catch someone off guard if they haddn't been paying attention, but most people would see it as a novelty. It isn't going to force you to move any faster. I don't know of any 'safe' way to put the kind of raw fear into a person that incomming rounds produce.

'Surprise' is really the only trick that can be done with any measure of safety, and even then it does introduce some serious safety concerns as the 'shock value' of surprise causes involuntary reflexes which can easily translate into an AD.

I've been a part of a few advanced classes where substitute methods were used, and frankly, none of them did a very good job of simulating anything more than pain, and pain that you know is coming isn't very effecive.

If this were an easy issue, it wouldn't be an issue.

At any rate, I can guarantee you that no local police department has ever burned the lamp oil dwelling on this issue even to the extent I have. And all I want is IDPA stages that will really challenge a shooter to problem solve and keep 'em comming back for more. (^_^)
 
I can't add much more to what Len has already stated here. I did read the article and saw that they were shooting at a moving vehicle. Not an easy thing to do no matter what their intended target was. Were they trying to disable the vehicle or the operator? The article doesn't say. Can you imagine the headlines if they put 12 rounds into that guy! The taxpayers of Bellingham should be happy that the suspect was not killed. They'll save a ton of money that would have been paid out in the certain settlement. We have a standing order that we cannot shoot at a vehicle but rest assured, if threatened I will.

I am an MPTC certified instructor. The chiefs run the MPTC. Their bottom line, $$$. We qualify once pre year as do most departments. Range safety is paramount but "training" does not exist. I know instructors that will help anyone that needs it, pointing out what they are doing wrong but the time and money isn't there for training. I just got my in-service schedule for the upcoming session. We are required to do 40hrs of "training" per year. This includes first aid, legal updates and firearm qual, and courses mandated by the Govt. so they chiefs can get more grants (useless wastes of time). This year, the firearm qual has been dropped. The range that was used has been closed for clean-up and re-construction. As far as I know, no range has been secured for this session.

Yes, an officer should take the time/money and do some of his own training after all his life depends on it. But the firearm is just looked at as another "tool" of the job. One that he hopes he will never have to use but he knows that it's there in case he needs it. Contrary to belief, cops are not known as gun nuts or crack shots, as Hollywood would like everyone to believe. They carry a gun but that's it.

I am the exception rather than the rule. I am known among my coworkers as a "gun nut". I collect C&R's, I'm an instructor, and I like to shoot. I am not a great shooter. I am average. I have done some stress training and active shooter training. It was “fun” and very informative but I don’t know if it will be the same in a real situation. I doubt that it will. Hopefully, I’ll have that bit more of an edge than the bad guy. The bad guy is experiencing the same world of shit that an officer is facing. I hope to God that I’m never faced with that and have to pull that trigger. I have pointed it at someone ready to pull and I've held it a someone's head at the ready. It's an awesome responsibility.

It's always easy for someone to Monday morning quarterback someone's actions without being in his or her shoes. I will not second-guess those officers actions or abilities no more than I would second-guess a victim of a crimes actions or inactions. Nor will I ever paint any group of people with such a broad brush.
 
A reminder

In case anyone forgot, this is NOT the first time a Bellingham cop has discharged a significant number of rounds at close range - with (fortunately) NO hits on the ostensible target.

Back in 2000 a certain Bellingham officer responded to a call from Home Depot regarding that most dangerous of criminals, an alleged check forger. He unloaded most of his wonder-.40's capacity at the SUSPECT, who was unarmed, but in his car.

This, mind you, in a busy mall parking lot, abutting:

1. Route 126;

2.The 126 on/off ramp for 495; and

3. Pizzerio Uno, with it's outdoor dining area.

Amazingly, no-one, including the target, was struck.

To rationalize the shooting, police charged the guy with Attempted Murder by means of the motor vehicle. This specious charge was DISMISSED by the Milford court a few weeks later.

Whether this new incident is a justified shooting (as it well may be) or history repeating itself, I cannot say. I offer the above as perspective. [wink]
 
Post stress reactions

This thread, a lot that I have read, and few personal experiences, have shown me that everyone reacts to stress differently. I am sure that each and every reaction that has been listed have occured. Not all or even any of these reactions happen to any given person. One reaction that I know has occured has not been mentioned. That is a feeling of joy. That is right, it is a joy to have survived and of still being alive.
My problem with the listing of the possible reactions to post stress is that we are programming ourselves that these things may and will happen. Be aware that some of these things can happen but do program your mind and body so that they will happen.
 
Um, Scrivener the "Check Passer" was armed with a pen. I was actually pulled over by the guy right before that happened. He is a good cop, just takes his job very seriously. I haven't seen him in a while but I know he had a zero tolerance on speeding.
 
"Deadly weapon?"

"Um, Scrivener the "Check Passer" was armed with a pen."

Um, just what IS your point? Do you seriously suggest that ballpoints should be declared deadly weapons?

Or does "zero tolerance" for ALLEGEDLY passing bad paper include doing a spray-n-pray of the parking lot? [roll]
 
just a lil sardcasim,
Guess I should have explained a little more. I am not saying that the Home Depot shooting was justified, just saying I have personaly met the LE involved and he is a good cop, just tries to do his job the best he can.
 

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