Please be Gentle Newb Question Rifle vs Handgun Ammo

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I disagree. If you get shot in the lung with a 45 acp you might survive if you are rushed to tier 1 trauma center. 12 ga buckshot to the lung? I suspect you are DRT.
OK. I've had more coffee, and am more awake now. I see your point. If an hour or more from a hospital, it would be closer to the same outcome. Yes? No?


The vast majority used, and still use, whatever passes for a full-length rifle on a contemporary battlefield. In the infantry, shorter longarms were for leaders, mortar and machine gunners, and folks like that. Riflemen carried rifles. The M3 was not an infantry weapon; although soldiers could, and did, scrounge whatever they wanted to scrounge, .45 ACP was generally only seen in infantry units in the Thompson and the M1911.

In general, a leader would have carried a Thompson or an M1 carbine. Most gunners would have carried the M1 carbine. If faced with any kind of threat at any kind of range even in 2023, and given a choice between an M1 carbine and any pistol, I'd take the carbine hands-down, every time, without any doubt or hesitation. Because, again, terminal ballistics are only part of the story. I can hit FAR better with an M1 than an M1911.
"Shorter long arms" [laugh]

I would of course agree a long arm is almost always better than a handgun "on the battlefield", except maybe in trenches or in a vehicle.

Anyhow, here's some photos.

eG8zXzEyODAuanBn

aS5qcGc


A Marine fires his Thompson submachine gun at enemy positions on Peleliu, September 1944.
aCm2wPBoSjXB3SRG8vgRF8-CF1STEsWjpCj-mrm1Fdk.jpg


ODc5NTQwMDAwMA


MTExMTcuanBn



The Tommy Gun “In Country”: The Thompson SMG in Vietnam | An Official Journal Of The NRA

PTUyNQ


LmpwZw
 
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Like most things in life, decisions are all about compromise. In your first post you mentioned that you are relatively new to firearms so I will assume you have not acquired a safe full of guns.
Great point!

Start out like most others:
.22 rifle
.22 pistol and/or revolver
12 gauge shotgun
9mm pistol
38 revolver

You'll probably keep most of these the rest of your life. After these, you might have some more "discretionary purchases", which you might change your mind on later.

Best of luck.
 

Picton

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"Shorter long arms" [laugh]

I would of course agree a long arm is almost always better than a handgun "on the battlefield", except maybe in trenches or in a vehicle.
Yeah. I did say, I think, that leaders often carried Thompsons, and that infantry units at that time used .45 ACP... for Thompsons.

A Thompson is a formidable weapon, but it's heavy as hell: it weighs more empty than a Garand does full, and FAR more than an M1 carbine. That is a not-inconsiderable feature, as anyone who's ever marched for a living can tell you.

Personally, if I'd been given the choice between a Thompson, an M1 Garand, and an M1 carbine during the war (and I would have been), I'm not certain which I'd have gone for. Probably the Garand. I'd have had little use for a pistol, even in a trench. Though handguns are WAY easier in a vehicle, obviously, and when jumping.
 
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Yeah. I did say, I think, that leaders often carried Thompsons, and that infantry units at that time used .45 ACP... for Thompsons.

A Thompson is a formidable weapon, but it's heavy as hell: it weighs more empty than a Garand does full, and FAR more than an M1 carbine. That is a not-inconsiderable feature, as anyone who's ever marched for a living can tell you.

Personally, if I'd been given the choice between a Thompson, an M1 Garand, and an M1 carbine during the war (and I would have been), I'm not certain which I'd have gone for. Probably the Garand. I'd have had little use for a pistol, even in a trench. Though handguns are WAY easier in a vehicle, obviously, and when jumping.
The M3 grease gun was a lot lighter than the Thompson but was about as accurate as throwing rocks. They were readily available in RVN on black market but not that popular due to range and quantity of ammo required.

I started with M14 and I would still choose it over any other mil rifle. Handguns were useless unless you were clearing tunnels.

As far as OP's question, he appears to want a 9mm. If it's for everyday carry he should get the lightest one that fits his hand.. it will do the job.
 

Greatwhitewing

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OP.

You're asking what is best, and Conan has the answer:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo9buo9Mtos


Other than that, there is NO answer, as it's a personal opinion/choice.

If you're new, take your time. The concept of "stopping power" is a fuzzy one. The concept of kinetic energy is easily defined. The interplay between stopping power and kinetic energy is extremely complex, because you have to factor in stuff like, bullet design (jacketed? Hollow point? Something else?) and shot placement.

I once read that may small holes are more effective than large misses.

If you're starting out, and belong to a Club, let it be known that you'd like to try stuff; most likely that you'll be offered a crapton of opportunities.

Some people like Glocks; I don't (wrong "feel" for me). My kid won't carry my carry piece, as he's "Not familiar enough with the platform" to be comfortable.

Find something that "fits" you and get decent with that. After a bit, you'll be able to make a (more) informed decision, based on your own wants, needs, skills, and "intuition," for lack of a better term.

I was only trying to understand. All comes down to speed which my wife complains about but that's another subject.
Didn't expect the thread to go so long, detailed and tad sideways at times but it's all good stuff, reading 99% with interest
 

ridleyman

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Pistol barrels are not strong enough to contain the energy of a lot of powder so instead of generating energy with powder, they do it with bullet mass.

The other thing is the barrel lengths don't allow for a lot of powder.. the bullet is long gone before you can burn all the powder and get the pressures up, but again you are limited by the barrel strength.... or why you do not shoot hot ammo (+p etc) out of old guns that were not made for it.

Is that the barrel or chamber/cylinder that you have to worry about?
 

walter62

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Didn't expect the thread to go so long, detailed and tad sideways at times but it's all good stuff, reading 99% with interest

Welcome to the Black Hole of NES. Sideways is our specialty.

Useful questions & info go in; random shit from the universe pops out.
 
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PappyM3

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Maybe true enough these days.

What type of compact long gun (carbine?) would an infantry type soldier use in WWII? In Vietnam? In Afghanistan?

I'm no expert, but for some reason, things like the Thompson, M3, and M4 come to mind. Those are pretty much your example above.

No? WTF do I know? It's Sunday morning, and I've only finished one coffee so far. Ha.
M1 carbine was the go-to for compact long gun. The SMGs had a different purpose.

The terminal performance of .30 Carbine FMJ is pretty poor. But works at getting a combatant off the battlefield and puts ‘em down if you hit the vitals or CNS, like a pistol would too. Just get a little more range.
 

StevieP

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Comparing .45acp to .223 is like comparing a Bronco to a Cayman. No one cross shops them.

bitch, please...






this could take hours to list them all.

PCC, it is, then...
 

paul73

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M1 carbine was the go-to for compact long gun. The SMGs had a different purpose.
exactly the point. the special ops style close/short range urban combat results in SMGs utilizing subsonic heavy high diameter bullets - like the 9x39mm vintorez.
for other troops where life is the distance - a traditional rifle caliber with maxed out supersonic speed and smaller caliber is the best. there is no single solution that is good for everyone.
 

PappyM3

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exactly the point. the special ops style close/short range urban combat results in SMGs utilizing subsonic heavy high diameter bullets - like the 9x39mm vintorez.
for other troops where life is the distance - a traditional rifle caliber with maxed out supersonic speed and smaller caliber is the best. there is no single solution that is good for everyone.
I don’t think that’s really the take-away.

The SMGs were in pistol calibers because they wanted short packages with controllable full auto. And pistol calibers were the only way to do that back then, given the state of technological development. It wasn’t because they wanted large diameter subsonics or anything. It was just that the only options for small frame controllable full auto then were with pistol calibers.

The need for heavy bullet, subsonic, platforms has always been an incredibly niche requirement when dealing with sentry or dog removal. Or, light removal, but that can easily be done with 22lr if your organization has it in the inventory. And the quiet option has almost always been a secondary gun on one of the team members.

Starting in the Vietnam war, we started to get compact rifle caliber carbines that were becoming reliable and they’ve gone on to almost completely remove the need for pistol caliber SMGs. Mk18 type M4s and 300blk platforms like the Rattler have effectively supplanted pistol caliber SMGs, PSD guns, and specialized subsonic platforms. And they’ve added rifle benefits.
 

paul73

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I don’t think that’s really the take-away.

The SMGs were in pistol calibers because they wanted short packages with controllable full auto. And pistol calibers were the only way to do that back then, given the state of technological development. It wasn’t because they wanted large diameter subsonics or anything. It was just that the only options for small frame controllable full auto then were with pistol calibers.

The need for heavy bullet, subsonic, platforms has always been an incredibly niche requirement when dealing with sentry or dog removal. Or, light removal, but that can easily be done with 22lr if your organization has it in the inventory.

Starting in the Vietnam war, we started to get compact rifle caliber carbines that were becoming reliable and they’ve gone on to almost completely remove the need for pistol caliber SMGs. Mk18 type M4s and 300blk platforms like the Rattler have effectively supplanted pistol caliber SMGs, PSD guns, and specialized subsonic platforms. And they’ve added rifle benefits.
9x39mm is quite a step up from 7.82mm 300blk, with 250-280gr bullets.
am_sa_9x39mm_v1.jpg
 

PappyM3

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9x39mm is quite a step up from 7.82mm 300blk, with 250-280gr bullets.
am_sa_9x39mm_v1.jpg
The 9x39 is a pretty neat rifle cartridge. Definitely seems like a similar role as the 300blk being used by SMUs currently. … just that it was ahead of the game by a few decades.
 

paul73

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The 9x39 is a pretty neat rifle cartridge. Definitely seems like a similar role as the 300blk being used by SMUs currently. … just that it was ahead of the game by a few decades.
i did shoot a real vintorez once - the effect of 280gr bullets impacting a target in full auto is amazing.
and it handles like a song - there is almost 0 lift compared to an AK that wants to fly away from your hands. that thing handles almost like a garden hose.
that`s a gun i would love to have, or its properly made copy in 300blk.

1920px-AS_Val_%26_VSS_Vintorez_-_RaceofHeroes-part2-34.jpg



here is a video from some youtube morons shooting it - no clue where/how they got it - but it shows there how amazingly well balanced it is, when he shoots it from one hand.

View: https://youtu.be/RW826sc-mAk?t=409
 

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Mesatchornug

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Is this true for all units of measurement?

grains vs grams vs ounces or a decimal equivalent

fps vs metric

energy as pounds/ounces or metric

Can you mix 'em up?

grains w/ feet per second (and give a metric result)?

grams w/ meters per second

etc...
Yes. Some combinations are just more meaningful to a reader than others.

If you find yourself with (for example) gn-Dm²/hr² all you have to do is multiply in a conversion factor to get back to J, BTU, hp-hr, or whatever other energy unit you prefer.
 

bmac10

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Is this true for all units of measurement?

grains vs grams vs ounces or a decimal equivalent

fps vs metric

energy as pounds/ounces or metric

Can you mix 'em up?

grains w/ feet per second (and give a metric result)?

grams w/ meters per second

etc...
Here is pretty good explanation, but in short, you do have to keep your units consistent -aka dimensioning.
 

TJ4

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Wow, did the NES collective get hit with a maturity ray? 4 pages in and there are a ton of really helpful and educational posts for the OP, and not once did anyone question his sexual preferences.
 

VetteGirlMA

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Back to physics:
E=MV^2

Energy = the mass of the projectile multiplied by the velocity squared.

It's all about the energy that is delivered by the projectile. Certainly projectile design comes into play in the wound cavity it produces. But it's really simple physics.

That's why I always shoot at the sun. This way when the bullet is converted into energy it looks like a sun spot.
 

Qwikdraw45

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i did shoot a real vintorez once - the effect of 280gr bullets impacting a target in full auto is amazing.
and it handles like a song - there is almost 0 lift compared to an AK that wants to fly away from your hands. that thing handles almost like a garden hose.
that`s a gun i would love to have, or its properly made copy in 300blk.

1920px-AS_Val_%26_VSS_Vintorez_-_RaceofHeroes-part2-34.jpg



here is a video from some youtube morons shooting it - no clue where/how they got it - but it shows there how amazingly well balanced it is, when he shoots it from one hand.

View: https://youtu.be/RW826sc-mAk?t=409

Ah-hah! That's how they got it - looks like Pres. Zelenskyy at the end of that video!
 
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