Please be Gentle Newb Question Rifle vs Handgun Ammo

[bmac10]

E=MC^2

The energy of any given thing is equal to its mass multiplied by its velocity squared.

There are tons of ballistic charts out there that you can compare different projectiles and their varying ft/lbs of energy. There are a million variables. Have fun! It’s interesting to me to look at different charts after many years of shooting and daydreaming and researching guns.

The constant C is the speed of light in a vacuum, not the velocity of the bullet. The formula for kinetic energy might be more appropriate - 1/2 mv squared Thx

 

[MisterHappy]

OP.

You're asking what is best, and Conan has the answer:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oo9buo9Mtos


Other than that, there is NO answer, as it's a personal opinion/choice.

If you're new, take your time. The concept of "stopping power" is a fuzzy one. The concept of kinetic energy is easily defined. The interplay between stopping power and kinetic energy is extremely complex, because you have to factor in stuff like, bullet design (jacketed? Hollow point? Something else?) and shot placement.

I once read that may small holes are more effective than large misses.

If you're starting out, and belong to a Club, let it be known that you'd like to try stuff; most likely that you'll be offered a crapton of opportunities.

Some people like Glocks; I don't (wrong "feel" for me). My kid won't carry my carry piece, as he's "Not familiar enough with the platform" to be comfortable.

Find something that "fits" you and get decent with that. After a bit, you'll be able to make a (more) informed decision, based on your own wants, needs, skills, and "intuition," for lack of a better term.

 

[Michael J. Spangler]

I’ll leave this here. INTERNATIONAL WOUND BALLISTICS ASSOCIATION

Is @pettypace still around? He can talk some sense into a ballistic thread.

I don’t think that small caliber rifle round would kill any faster than this.
In the IWBA articles there’s a great comparison between
45 - 230 Ranger T
223 - 55 FMJ
308 - 168 SMK
Which would Dr Fackler choose for a quick incapacitation. He chose the 45 all day long.
All are capable of a CNS hit light switch goes off bang flop.
The 45 wins out on a non CNS drop the blood pressure fastest and take the bad guy out of the fight.

You can read a ton about hit probability and follow up shots and all that jazz. There’s 10 years of the best minds in ballistics getting into the kitty gritty and debunking the common misconceptions and poor soldier of fortune magazine terminology like stopping power and knockdown power.

Below is a soft alloy 45-70 traveling about 1100 FPS maybe less. I’ll have to look up the penetration. I know it went clear through a single block and I had to catch it in a box of rags before I busted out the second block. Expansion was a little over .900”
I’m not sure a non CNS hit from a 5.56 with all of its “shocking mega stopping knock down TKO power slammer” would stop something as fast a 1” hole leaking out both ends.

 

[Realtor MA]

Wouldnt it be.... E= M x V²

 

[PappyM3]

I’ll leave this here. INTERNATIONAL WOUND BALLISTICS ASSOCIATION

Is @pettypace still around? He can talk some sense into a ballistic thread.

I don’t think that small caliber rifle round would kill any faster than this.
In the IWBA articles there’s a great comparison between
45 - 230 Ranger T
223 - 55 FMJ
308 - 168 SMK
Which would Dr Fackler choose for a quick incapacitation. He chose the 45 all day long.
All are capable of a CNS hit light switch goes off bang flop.

The IWBA articles are good reads, but they’re old and Fackler is not infallible. Choosing 45ACP over a rifle cartridge for. Non-CNS incapacitation is extremely stupid.

Call all the swat teams and military, they’re clearing buildings with the wrong guns!

Also, why is he comparing an expanding JHP pistol bullet to an FMJ rifle bullet? Not an apt comparison there. But even with that comparison, his conclusion is severely flawed.

More modern terminal ballistics research has been done by Dr Gary Roberts.

The 45 wins out on a non CNS drop the blood pressure fastest and take the bad guy out of the fight.

Pure BS. Unless we’re only talking about 5.56 ice picking. But an M193 is very much unlikely to ice pick at the same ranges you’d engage a threat with a 45

 

[PappyM3]

Below is a soft alloy 45-70 traveling about 1100 FPS maybe less. I’ll have to look up the penetration. I know it went clear through a single block and I had to catch it in a box of rags before I busted out the second block. Expansion was a little over .900”
I’m not sure a non CNS hit from a 5.56 with all of its “shocking mega stopping knock down TKO power slammer” would stop something as fast a 1” hole leaking out both ends.

View attachment 733371

You don’t think a baseball sized hole in tissue would bleed someone out quicker?

Subsonics can still definitely be lethal though. People really underestimate expanding solid 300blk loads with pedals that spread out to 1.2”.

 

[Michael J. Spangler]

The IWBA articles are good reads, but they’re old and Fackler is not infallible. Choosing 45ACP over a rifle cartridge for. Non-CNS incapacitation is extremely stupid.

Call all the swat teams and military, they’re clearing buildings with the wrong guns!

Also, why is he comparing an expanding JHP pistol bullet to an FMJ rifle bullet? Not an apt comparison there. But even with that comparison, his conclusion is severely flawed.

More modern terminal ballistics research has been done by Dr Gary Roberts.



Pure BS. Unless we’re only talking about 5.56 ice picking. But an M193 is very much unlikely to ice pick at the same ranges you’d engage a threat with a 45

He compared them because they’re the common military and police bullets. He said he would have chosen a proper expanding bullet in the rifles but that’s not what is commonly used.
He’s not infallible but there’s some great info in there’s and he’s not the only guy on the team.

You don’t think a baseball sized hole in tissue would bleed someone out quicker?

Subsonics can still definitely be lethal though. People really underestimate expanding solid 300blk loads with pedals that spread out to 1.2”.

There’s more variables than just a baseball sized hole but take a 1” diameter hole 12” long and you’re not wanting for wound volume or blood loss.
55 grain can make a pretty nasty wound but it’s not amazing. Permanent cavity is ok but there are much better choices. A 45 ranger T that cuts a .750” hole as deep as you want is no joke.
The wound profiles of that vs a 55 FMJ are vastly different and again the 45 doesn’t have any issues with getting the job done.

Now a heavy for caliber monolithic hollow point in the 223 would be a lot different but that’s not what most people have their mags loaded up with.

I’ll check out Dr Gary Robert’s. Books or online articles? I haven’t had a good wound ballistic binge in a while.

 

[Picton]

He compared them because they’re the common military and police bullets. He said he would have chosen a proper expanding bullet in the rifles but that’s not what is commonly used.
He’s not infallible but there’s some great info in there’s and he’s not the only guy on the team.

There’s more variables than just a baseball sized hole but take a 1” diameter hole 12” long and you’re not wanting for wound volume or blood loss.
55 grain can make a pretty nasty wound but it’s not amazing. Permanent cavity is ok but there are much better choices. A 45 ranger T that cuts a .750” hole as deep as you want is no joke.
The wound profiles of that vs a 55 FMJ are vastly different and again the 45 doesn’t have any issues with getting the job done.

Now a heavy for caliber monolithic hollow point in the 223 would be a lot different but that’s not what most people have their mags loaded up with.

I’ll check out Dr Gary Robert’s. Books or online articles? I haven’t had a good wound ballistic binge in a while.

Wound ballistics are only part of the story, though; there are inherent advantages to each kind of system. No knowledgeable or experienced gunfighter is likely to pass up a rifle in favor of a pistol in almost any situation, surely. Rifles are just simply better for hitting things with.

Sure, a .45 will make a lethal hole at 35m or whatever, but if you've got a rifle, they hopefully won't get anywhere near that close. So the ballistics of the .45 matter less in a world where you can hit with 55grn FMJ at 150m, several times.

It's apples to oranges, at some level. Terminal ballistics are an important part of weapon selection, but not the most important part.

 

[Mtn_Guy]

You are mixing up diff things.
The best stopping power is a 12ga shotgun slug.

Transfers as a handgun. Plenty of stopping power.

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[LakeTrout]

take a 1” diameter hole 12” long and you’re not wanting for wound volume or blood loss.

Not necessarily. You gotta hit something that bleeds real well if you want a lot of blood loss. I’ve seen deer gut shot that live a good long time, get away never to be seen again, etc. and that’s a big old hole right through them that sometimes leaves very little blood at all.

There are lots of spots on your torso where you could suffer a pass through and not be taken out of the fight right away. The high velocity rifle rounds seem to create an expansion of tissues on impact and pass through that destroys surrounding tissues in a greater diameter than just what the bullet itself impacts. If those tissues belong to vital organs it turns out to be a bad day.

You’re right that if you put a bullet into the CNS it’s gonna do the job whether it’s rifle or pistol. But I think rifle buys you more room for error if the bullet doesn’t directly impact something vital.

 

[Michael J. Spangler]

Not necessarily. You gotta hit something that bleeds real well if you want a lot of blood loss. I’ve seen deer gut shot that live a good long time, get away never to be seen again, etc. and that’s a big old hole right through them that sometimes leaves very little blood at all.

There are lots of spots on your torso where you could suffer a pass through and not be taken out of the fight right away. The high velocity rifle rounds seem to create an expansion of tissues on impact and pass through that destroys surrounding tissues in a greater diameter than just what the bullet itself impacts. If those tissues belong to vital organs it turns out to be a bad day.

You’re right that if you put a bullet into the CNS it’s gonna do the job whether it’s rifle or pistol. But I think rifle buys you more room for error if the bullet doesn’t directly impact something vital.

True the higher speed can cause some tearing but most organs are elastic. They also rely on bleeding out if not CNS so you’re back to wound volume. I believe the brain the liver and the spleen are not so stretchy and close shots with something that causes tearing due to stretch would raise hell with them.

However as noted above there’s about 1000000 variables going on and the important part is that we are all reading and trying to learn more and practicing and buying good ammo so we can try to reduce some variables and work around others.

I wouldn’t feel under gunned with a full mag of 124 HSTs or 230 HSTs unless a bad guy was wearing some armor.

 

[Rob Boudrie]

E=MC^2

The energy of any given thing is equal to its mass multiplied by its velocity squared.

There are tons of ballistic charts out there that you can compare different projectiles and their varying ft/lbs of energy. There are a million variables. Have fun! It’s interesting to me to look at different charts after many years of shooting and daydreaming and researching guns.

Actually, your are probably thinking that E=MV^2=Mass time velocity squared

 

[LakeTrout]

True the higher speed can cause some tearing but most organs are elastic. They also rely on bleeding out if not CNS so you’re back to wound volume. I believe the brain the liver and the spleen are not so stretchy and close shots with something that causes tearing due to stretch would raise hell with them.

However as noted above there’s about 1000000 variables going on and the important part is that we are all reading and trying to learn more and practicing and buying good ammo so we can try to reduce some variables and work around others.

I wouldn’t feel under gunned with a full mag of 124 HSTs or 230 HSTs unless a bad guy was wearing some armor.

I agree. I don’t fully know what’s going on either. Bleeding from the spleen is an immediate life threat. Bleeds a lot and quick. Does a rifle round passing by it cause that? I really don’t know. I would have to learn more about it than I probably care to. I do believe rifle shots account for ending the fight quicker than pistol shots. But I don’t know the full science behind it.

The other thing is what is quick in a gun fight? An arterial bleed will cause loss of consciousness in seconds. Say it’s under 10 seconds. Fast right? Maybe, maybe not. Is 7 seconds fast in a gun fight to take someone out of the fight permanently? I don’t know. Imagine someone is shooting at you and then count to seven and that’s when they stop. That’s a long time.

 

[RankAmateur]

Actually, your are probably thinking that E=MV^2=Mass time velocity squared

Or, actually half of that. @bmac10 had it right, even though it doesn't really affect any comparison between rounds or OPs question. Technical difference between formulas relates to how mass is treated relative to velocity in energy calculations. E=MC^2 is Einstein's Theory of Relativity, stating that energy and mass are the same entity in different forms. It uses the full value of mass because mass of any body increases toward infinity as its velocity approaches the speed of light. E=MV^2 applies at relativistic speeds. Bullets don't travel at those speeds so using E=MV^2 yields energy values that are far too high (far above any energy values that would be measured for a fired bullet, for instance), so the proper formula for kinetic energy of a moving body like a bullet is, as @bmac10 posted, 1/2 MV^2.

Again, that's physics and the calculations, it is NOT an answer to OP's question, and doesn't change what anyone has posted here about comparisons between rounds or terminal ballistics. Gentlemen, range is hot, let the games continue!

 

[Qwikdraw45]

It all comes down to "temporary wound cavity". Slow bullet, the tissue snaps right back and the channel created by the projectile is basically the same size as the projectile. At rifle velocities the wound cavity tears and rips tissue and does not close up. The magic number is about 2200 feet per second.

Sounds like you'd better give up your 1911's then!

So far all my guns (lost in a boating accident of course) are were newer and ready for +P

FIFY.

The other thing is what is quick in a gun fight? An arterial bleed will cause loss of consciousness in seconds. Say it’s under 10 seconds. Fast right? Maybe, maybe not. Is 7 seconds fast in a gun fight to take someone out of the fight permanently? I don’t know. Imagine someone is shooting at you and then count to seven and that’s when they stop. That’s a long time.

There was a Correctional Officer in AZ who shot himself in the femoral artery. He was on the radio for a long time. IIRC, it was around 45 seconds before he stopped.

 

[LakeTrout]

There was a Correctional Officer in AZ who shot himself in the femoral artery. He was on the radio for a long time. IIRC, it was around 45 seconds before he stopped.

That’s a decent amount of time for that bleed. He might have been able to get some kind of pressure on it. Some people drop in a lot less. And then it’s up to someone else to get the TQ on them or it’s all over shortly thereafter.

 

[Qwikdraw45]

That’s a decent amount of time for that bleed. He might have been able to get some kind of pressure on it. Some people drop in a lot less. And then it’s up to someone else to get the TQ on them or it’s all over shortly thereafter.

Oh, he was a gonner. Given an average 1 mile perimeter, with 4 90-degree turns and either dirt or worn pavement, a response vehicle can't get there all that fast. And that's if a rover isn't a few miles away to begin with.

 

[M1911]

My understanding from when I took lfi 1 and 2. In the us 80% shot with a pistol live; 80% shot with a long gun die.

 

[kalash]

Comparing .45acp to .223 is like comparing a Bronco to a Cayman. No one cross shops them.

 

[Greatwhitewing]

Watch some youtube videos showing bullet penetration and expansion into various things like calibrated ballistic gelatin, water bottles, or tannerite (lol) to see the differences.

When comparing i.e. .223, compare 53gr ballistic tip varmint ammo vs 55gr fmj vs 62 gr SP vs 68 gr OTM.

Doing what a gun is "for" at what distance, accurately, is the big factor in handgun vs rifle (to me).

Handguns are used defensively at short distances. The ability to hit the necessary target when under stress or on the move is as much if not more important in a life or death defensive situation than actual bullet energy.

Usually if you have a rifle it's for an intentional use like hunting some known thing in some known environment, be it a squirrel at forty yards or an elk at 400, and everything in between.

Range, target shooting and other games excepted.

All generalizations are false. I am not a lawyer and did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

What do you plan to use it for?

In harmony with your post the best ability of any gun is it's availability.
My original question was purely for knowledge at this point. There may come a day I feel something longer/bigger than a pistol may be appropriate. Based on my home location and layout it's hard for me to imagine needing something for 200 yards or more for home defense.

 

[PappyM3]

In harmony with your post the best ability of any gun is it's availability.
My original question was purely for knowledge at this point. There may come a day I feel something longer/bigger than a pistol may be appropriate. Based on my home location and layout it's hard for me to imagine needing something for 200 yards or more for home defense.

Aside from the terminal performance increase of rifle rounds with proper bullets, you also gain a massive ability to accurately place your shots with the extra points of contact on the weapon. Even at room distances, a rifle will let you easily put several shots into the vitals. Whereas most bullets shot by handguns in defensive scenarios miss. And accurate shots from a rifle can be quicker thanks to a very easily repeatable cheek weld and relative position of your sights/optic. A carbine is a good thing to have, even if it’s just chambered in a pistol caliber like your handgun. Though for 200+ yards, you’re going to want it chambered in a rifle caliber.

 

[Michael J. Spangler]

I agree. I don’t fully know what’s going on either. Bleeding from the spleen is an immediate life threat. Bleeds a lot and quick. Does a rifle round passing by it cause that? I really don’t know. I would have to learn more about it than I probably care to. I do believe rifle shots account for ending the fight quicker than pistol shots. But I don’t know the full science behind it.

The other thing is what is quick in a gun fight? An arterial bleed will cause loss of consciousness in seconds. Say it’s under 10 seconds. Fast right? Maybe, maybe not. Is 7 seconds fast in a gun fight to take someone out of the fight permanently? I don’t know. Imagine someone is shooting at you and then count to seven and that’s when they stop. That’s a long time.

The body does some amazing compensating when blood loss is going on. It’s scary how long someone can stay in the fight. Which is why a CNS hit is best.
the IWBA articles show so many examples that go one way or another with no rhyme or reason. Every person is different and you never know which one you’re in a gun fight with till it’s over.

Comparing .45acp to .223 is like comparing a Bronco to a Cayman. No one cross shops them.

Go read the article. It’s really a good comparison. Wound channels and bullet design all in proper context. It’s not that far off.

We’re not talking 230 ball vs 55 soft points.
230 ranger T vs 55 FMJ with plenty of technical data.

 

[42!]

My understanding from when I took lfi 1 and 2. In the us 80% shot with a pistol live; 80% shot with a long gun die.

Consider this;
Differing crimes and situations. Gangs, mugging, these are the more common crime and carried out by those illegally carrying a handgun, so less skilled. Rifle are more of a legally own firearm by someone who has long standing skill and has practiced. So it is the person and situation that makes them more deadly, not the type of firearm.

 

[M1911]

Consider this;
Differing crimes and situations. Gangs, mugging, these are the more common crime and carried out by those illegally carrying a handgun, so less skilled. Rifle are more of a legally own firearm by someone who has long standing skill and has practiced. So it is the person and situation that makes them more deadly, not the type of firearm.

While I think that is part of it, I don’t think it is all of it. One 45 ACP to the chest is very different from a 12 gauge 00 buck load to the same location.

 

[Coyote33]

While I think that is part of it, I don’t think it is all of it. One 45 ACP to the chest is very different from a 12 gauge 00 buck load to the same location.

I don't know. There may be more damage, and they'll look different; but in the end, the outcome is most likely the same. I guess "the end" might come a little or a lot quicker with the shotgun.

 

[42!]

While I think that is part of it, I don’t think it is all of it. One 45 ACP to the chest is very different from a 12 gauge 00 buck load to the same location.

I had to look back and you did say "long" guns and not rifles. And as I pointed out earlier, the type of damage caused by a shotgun is more like a handgun than a rifle. That is, large slow moving mass resulting in limited penetration, a rapid transfer of energy over a short distance. Buckshot allows for less skill to still be deadly due to the multiple projectiles. Ultimately the stat is meaningless without more information, the situation, and type of "long" gun, or at least rifle of shotgun.

 

[Coyote33]

Comparing .45acp to .223 is like comparing a Bronco to a Cayman. No one cross shops them.

Maybe true enough these days.

What type of compact long gun (carbine?) would an infantry type soldier use in WWII? In Vietnam? In Afghanistan?

I'm no expert, but for some reason, things like the Thompson, M3, and M4 come to mind. Those are pretty much your example above.

No? WTF do I know? It's Sunday morning, and I've only finished one coffee so far. Ha.

 

[M1911]

I don't know. There may be more damage, and they'll look different; but in the end, the outcome is most likely the same. I guess "the end" might come a little or a lot quicker with the shotgun.

I disagree. If you get shot in the lung with a 45 acp you might survive if you are rushed to tier 1 trauma center. 12 ga buckshot to the lung? I suspect you are DRT.

 

[Picton]

Maybe true enough these days.

What type of compact long gun (carbine?) would an infantry type soldier use in WWII? In Vietnam? In Afghanistan?

I'm no expert, but for some reason, things like the Thompson, M3, and M4 come to mind. Those are pretty much your example above.

No? WTF do I know? It's Sunday morning, and I've only finished one coffee so far. Ha.

The vast majority used, and still use, whatever passes for a full-length rifle on a contemporary battlefield. In the infantry, shorter longarms were for leaders, mortar and machine gunners, and folks like that. Riflemen carried rifles. The M3 was not an infantry weapon; although soldiers could, and did, scrounge whatever they wanted to scrounge, .45 ACP was generally only seen in infantry units in the Thompson and the M1911.

In general, a leader would have carried a Thompson or an M1 carbine. Most gunners would have carried the M1 carbine. If faced with any kind of threat at any kind of range even in 2023, and given a choice between an M1 carbine and any pistol, I'd take the carbine hands-down, every time, without any doubt or hesitation. Because, again, terminal ballistics are only part of the story. I can hit FAR better with an M1 than an M1911.

 

[fencer]

In harmony with your post the best ability of any gun is it's availability.
My original question was purely for knowledge at this point. There may come a day I feel something longer/bigger than a pistol may be appropriate. Based on my home location and layout it's hard for me to imagine needing something for 200 yards or more for home defense.

Like most things in life, decisions are all about compromise. In your first post you mentioned that you are relatively new to firearms so I will assume you have not acquired a safe full of guns.
The advice I would offer up is you should consider adding a decent 12ga shotgun to your collection. There are so many advantages to a 12ga that it is hard to ignore. First is that they are relatively affordable. You can find a decent used 12ga pump action shotgun for $300-$400.
But I think the biggest advantage is versatility. A 12ga can be a formidable tool for self defense, but by simple changing ammo, can be used to put food on the table. Load it up with game load and you have an excellent tool to take small game like rabbit or duck, goose and the list goes on and on.
Load with buck shot or slugs and it is great for larger game like deer. 12ga really does offer the most value and versatility.