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Please be Gentle Newb Question Rifle vs Handgun Ammo
- Thread starter Greatwhitewing
- Start date
I have some 400-500 grain hollow points for 45/70 that disagree, and those things are slow AF and have the BC of a school bus.
@Michael J. Spangler has some pics of tests he ran and they expand, a lot.
dgrantdoherty
NES Member
I think he's talking about heavy slow stuff like a 45.
But I bet those pictures are awesome
Yeah. Watch some ballistics gel videos. The shockwaves from the rifle round blow a tremendous temporary wound cavity. They don’t have to actually crush tissue to wreck it. In addition 5.56 rounds moving fast enough typically yaw and break at the cannelure. Now you have two or three projectiles taking separate paths while moving sideways. Devastating.
Greatwhitewing
NES Member
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- Jun 2, 2022
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So far all my guns (lost in a boating accident of course) are newer and ready for +P
+1 for the word "alacrity."
OP, the realization that smaller, faster bullets offer decent battlefield performance is THE major ballistics story of the 20th century, a century that was no slouch ballistically.
The old idea was that bigger bullets equalled deadlier bullets. The understanding that that isn't the case is what has made intermediate calibers (and the modern rifles that fire them) the dominant force in firearms selection since WWII.
Pistols are a little different. The barrel length matters, but the amount of propellant matters more. You can pack a whole bunch more powder into a rifle cartridge, proportionally, regardless of the size of the bullet. There is a tradeoff between shock effect or "stopping power" and sheer lethality, a tradeoff which varies by caliber and weapon type. It's a balancing act: barrel length, bullet weight, propellant quantity, and desired range and effects are all variables that people spent a lot of time thinking about between 1945 and 1965.
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This is true the bullet from the pistol has more rest mass energy but the bullet from
the rifle will have more kinetic energy.
allen-1
NES Member
Rifles are inconvenient to carry, pistols are easy.
But, here's a pretty vivid video of how sometimes a pistol isn't very effective.
But, here's a pretty vivid video of how sometimes a pistol isn't very effective.
StevieP
NES Member
Watch some youtube videos showing bullet penetration and expansion into various things like calibrated ballistic gelatin, water bottles, or tannerite (lol) to see the differences.
When comparing i.e. .223, compare 53gr ballistic tip varmint ammo vs 55gr fmj vs 62 gr SP vs 68 gr OTM.
Doing what a gun is "for" at what distance, accurately, is the big factor in handgun vs rifle (to me).
Handguns are used defensively at short distances. The ability to hit the necessary target when under stress or on the move is as much if not more important in a life or death defensive situation than actual bullet energy.
Usually if you have a rifle it's for an intentional use like hunting some known thing in some known environment, be it a squirrel at forty yards or an elk at 400, and everything in between.
Range, target shooting and other games excepted.
All generalizations are false. I am not a lawyer and did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
What do you plan to use it for?
When comparing i.e. .223, compare 53gr ballistic tip varmint ammo vs 55gr fmj vs 62 gr SP vs 68 gr OTM.
Doing what a gun is "for" at what distance, accurately, is the big factor in handgun vs rifle (to me).
Handguns are used defensively at short distances. The ability to hit the necessary target when under stress or on the move is as much if not more important in a life or death defensive situation than actual bullet energy.
Usually if you have a rifle it's for an intentional use like hunting some known thing in some known environment, be it a squirrel at forty yards or an elk at 400, and everything in between.
Range, target shooting and other games excepted.
All generalizations are false. I am not a lawyer and did not stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
What do you plan to use it for?
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Penniepup1
NES Member
I like fast turtles.
dgrantdoherty
NES Member
That's sort of it - as long as the bullet penetrates and expands, why does it matter how much energy it's carrying? My 230gr .45acp bullets are known to reliably do both so I don't care what velocity or energy levels achieve this performance.
StevieP
NES Member
A .22lr 40gr jhp will penetrate and expand. Will its energy have the same result as your .45?
StevieP
NES Member
A slower, heavier expanding bullet will hit the target and DUMP ITS ENERGY like a sledghammer. A smaller faster buller may fragment (explode) or even pass through, but do it while creating hydrostatic shock (google that term) on its way.
It’s all about 2 factors:
1. Having enough energy to overcome the elasticity of the tissue
2. Effectively transferring the energy within the body.
Most pistol calibers do not have the energy for #1. Look at the case size and you’ll see they don’t have the powder capacity for that. Most pistol calibers simply poke holes, and using a hollow point just lets you poke a little bit bigger of a hole.
Number 2 is equally important though. If you have a 5.56 with an FMJ that doesn’t tumble, fragment, or expand in the tissue, then it will just fly straight through and leave a .22 size hole.
You’ll generally see people say high velocity is needed for the permanent wound cavity damage, but that’s just not true. You just need to transfer the energy into the tissue. It’s just that it’s easier to transfer energy from lighter, faster bullets, because they don’t have the momentum of heavier bullets. It’s hard to slow down (and thus transfer energy) heavier bullets in the space of a body.
But, if you had a slow and heavy bullet, like a 12 gauge slug or a 45-70 bullet, you can definitely still do a serious permanent wound cavity in the tissue. It just requires effectively transferring that energy into the tissue to stretch the tissue to the point of tearing. The 12 gauge slug does it with a large meplat (the front of the bullet/slug). A bullet like the 45-70 could do it with a polymer tipped expanding bullet that effectively expands at slower velocities.
Most expanding bullets have been designed to expand at higher velocities, which has exaggerated the idea that you need speed for large tissue damage. But modern polymer tipped expanding/fragmenting bullets can do so at lower velocities.
Because you need a certain energy transfer threshold to stretch tissue to the point of tearing into a permanent cavity bigger than the diameter of the bullet. If you don’t have that, then you’re just crushing tissue along the bullet path.
Hydrostatic shock isn’t really a thing.
Both small bullets and heavy bullets need to transfer their energy into the tissue by slowing down in the tissue.
And there are expanding smaller bullets too. Just look at the Barnes TSX and TTSX offerings. It’s not just about fragmenting with lighter bullets.
Nope, .22LR does not penetrate to FBI standards, it does not expand much (if at all), and it's notoriously unreliable by virtue of being a rimfire cartridge.
Your standards handgun rounds don't come close to meeting that threshold - you need a rifle for that. Handgun bullets just crush tissue along their path, exactly as you said. They're hole punches.
Lots of coyote hunters like .17 caliber bullets going over 4,000 feet per second. It keeps a flat trajectory, and turns the insides to jelly with no exit hole, which is good if they are selling the pelts.
.17 Remington
.17-223
.17 Fireball
.17 Hornet
.17 WSM (rimfire)
.17 HMR on the small end, for under 100 yards
(P.S. The ones towards the bottom of this list are not 4,000 fps rounds)
.17 Remington
.17-223
.17 Fireball
.17 Hornet
.17 WSM (rimfire)
.17 HMR on the small end, for under 100 yards
(P.S. The ones towards the bottom of this list are not 4,000 fps rounds)
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Jesus some of you guys make me feel like an idiot. Must be the engineers tinkering mind vs my knuckle dragging mind.
NES: e=mc2 Einstein shit and a bunch of random scientific numbers.
Cams: Buy gun. Learn gun. Shoot gun. Clean gun. Love gun. Take gun fishing. Start over.
NES: e=mc2 Einstein shit and a bunch of random scientific numbers.
Cams: Buy gun. Learn gun. Shoot gun. Clean gun. Love gun. Take gun fishing. Start over.
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300 win mag is freaking awesome launching 180s at 3000fps
That is a world of f your s up
Bro you ever shot a 10mm... your lucky if it doesn't rip the bras off every woman in a mile with its raw machismo
In seriousness it mattersish when you get up in that hot 44 mag range and above
But consider this. It's not about the energy of the projectile, it's the energy transferred to the target. If the projectile passes through then the energy it still has apon exit must be subtracted from that it has on entry to determine the amount of energy transferred to the target.
And even if the projectile stays completely in the target, the energy transfer over distance will make a difference. For example, a slower moving soft point wadcutter, will transfer all its energy over a very small distance, that lower penetration isn't necessarily a bad thing as the quick transfer of energy sets up a shockwave in the target that will do significant damage. More of a liquafi of the flesh that cutting a channel.
A faster, smaller, projectile will penetrate further and the energy will be transferred over greater distance within the target, creating the wound channel that is the damage. Different bullet and speed, different type of wound. And that greater penetration make the possibility that the projectile will pass through the target more likely.
Handguns, 12g slugs, buckshot are all about slower moving projectiles that transfer energy over short distances, and over shorter distances this can be advantageous. They still have plenty of energy, it's transferred to the target quickly, and there is a lower chance of passing through. And passing through can be a big consideration depending on what's on the other side. If there is someone sleeping on the other side of the wall, you might want to be sure your bullets don't penetrate that far.
Rifle, like the 556/223, wil have as much energy and stay that way at greater distances, but the also tend to have slower transfer of energy , which can result in passing through and becoming a risk to what is beyond the target.
What follows is opinion.
For self defence a shotgun can be very effective. Lots of energy transfer, less chance of passing through, and accuracy under stress is less of an issue. Downside is, tough to conceal carry, might be unwieldy in a confined space depending on barrel length, and lower mag capacity.
A handgun will have all the energy you need and with the right ammo, passing through will be less likely. They have good mag capacity, and are easily handled in a confined space. They are also easily concealed. The only downside is they require more skill than a shotgun. But over short distances that not difficult to overcome.
As for rifles/carbines for self defence in the home, well you do you, but I don't see the advantage to this. They are harder to handle in the confined spaces, are subject to projectiles passing through, and require more skill that a shotgun. And outside the home, they are difficult to conceal, and if an attacker knows you have it they will plan accordingly. So I don't see much advantage.
I will say that the concept of your carry getting you back to your rifle (or maybe truck gun) seems sound, but I wouldn't be calling this self defence, more of mutual combat. I just don't see the legal stand of self defence if you are going back to you vehicle to get your gun.
There’s no magic velocity threshold. That’s been a theory with ballisticians, but the studies I’ve seen haven’t also looked at heavier slower bullets with the same energy, using bullets that transfer all their energy in the tissue.
It seems to just be a matter of energy transfer. As long as you can stop a really heavy, slow bullet inside the body, it’s also going to create a permanent cavity bigger than the bullet diameter. Momentum makes that tougher. But it can be done.
Just look at 45-70 at only 1700 fps. A temporary cavity that big in gel is going to cause large tearing in living tissue.
View: https://youtube.com/watch?v=mbTst-djm-s
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