Planning move out of state (MA to NH)

[dcmdon]

Remember that different states define residency differently, and the ATF defines it different still.

The ATF considers that if you own homes in multiple states, you are a resident of whatever state you are in when you are there. So if you have a weekend home in NH, you can lawfully buy a gun there as a resident. Whichmeans you can buy handguns there and long guns that aren't legal in MA if that is your domicile state.

CT is happy to issue a person there who has a weekend home a RESIDENT pistol permit.

99% of NH towns will not issue a person with a weekend home there a RESIDENT P&R. This is important because NH has reciprocity with many many other states. But a good chunk of those states only recognize a RESIDENT NH P&R. Not a non-resident.

NH law is pretty clear. I don't have time to google it but it is out there.

Throughout all of this is the idea that there is a difference between a residence (which the ATF defines as anywhere you make a home. At SHOT show, I spoke to an ATF agent about this and he said that if you keep a toothbrush and clothes there, its a safe bet that they would consider it to be a residence) and a primary residence or domicile.

You only have one domicile. Your DL is issued by your domiciled state. You vote in your domiciled state. On top of that, you can have an unlimited number of residences.

 

[Masswhole]

I'm a dual resident, living in both NH and MA each week. I have both resident P/R and MA LTC, both chiefs know the situation and are OK with it. You do not have to be full-time in either state to maintain the licenses.

Maine SP does not follow this line of thinking.
Despite owning a home there they will not issue me a ME resident license.

 

[AHM]

99% of NH towns will not issue a person with a weekend home there a RESIDENT P&R.

How do they know?

Maine SP does not follow this line of thinking.
Despite owning a home there they will not issue me a ME resident license.

How do they know?

 

[dcmdon]

They start off by asking to see your DL. If you produce a MA DL, you are done.

In a strange twist, it seems most CT towns are happy to issue you a resident PP if you have a weekend place there.

 

[AHM]

They start off by asking to see your DL. If you produce a MA DL, you are done.

Be interesting to hear if that's backed by statute.

NH has a long history of gun owners successfully playing Civil Suit Whack-a-Mole
with police chiefs who try to step outside the bounds of the law on P&RL's.

 

[42!]

Be interesting to hear if that's backed by statute.

NH has a long history of gun owners successfully playing Civil Suit Whack-a-Mole
with police chiefs who try to step outside the bounds of the law on P&RL's.

Not sure where you are coming from on this but;
Ammo is unregulated in NH, the state doesn't care who buys it. Restricting sales to NH residents is a shop decision often tied to threats from the MA AG or just the general liability of having sold ammo to a MA resident who later gets arrested.
As for P&R , it easy to get a NH non-resident P&R, you don't even need a license in your home state, and there is a lot of reciprocity even for the non-res P&R. And back before I escaped the PRM I was able to easily buy ammo in NH with the non-res.

And YES NH holds the chief personally responsible for any BS, or even just going over the processing deadline, unlike MA.

 

[drgrant]

Not sure where you are coming from on this but;
Ammo is unregulated in NH, the state doesn't care who buys it. Restricting sales to NH residents is a shop decision often tied to threats from the MA AG or just the general liability of having sold ammo to a MA resident who later gets arrested.
As for P&R , it easy to get a NH non-resident P&R, you don't even need a license in your home state, and there is a lot of reciprocity even for the non-res P&R. And back before I escaped the PRM I was able to easily buy ammo in NH with the non-res.

And YES NH holds the chief personally responsible for any BS, or even just going over the processing deadline, unlike MA.

Lol he's not talking about any of the shit that SO (or walmart?) does, he's talking about the procedure of getting a res PR&L.

 

[AHM]

Ammo is unregulated in NH, the state doesn't care who buys it. Restricting sales to NH residents is a shop decision often tied to threats from the MA AG or just the general liability of having sold ammo to a MA resident who later gets arrested.

How about pants?
Are pants regulated in NH?

As for P&R , it easy to get a NH non-resident P&R, you don't even need a license in your home state, ...

We got ours (and have even renewed them). See the NH Lockstep anecdote.

And YES NH holds the chief personally responsible for any BS, or even just going over the processing deadline, unlike MA.

Totally.

But there are at least a few stories on NES about NH chiefs
that have lost lawsuits over ragtime like non-statutory processes.

(Almost?) all the stories are probably pre-Constitutional Carry,
but they're case law nonetheless.

I'm too lazy to look them up, but they left me with the impression
that (even before statutory reform regularizing and simplifying licensing),
some giants roamed the land, getting courts to stomp some chiefs into legal pudding
for coloring outside the lines.

Which you can't do unless the courts are legit.
And one might hope against hope that
many of those judges are still sitting on a bench.

So this lingering impression leave me surprised that some but not all NH chiefs
demand proof of domicile as proof of residency, and that they succeed at it.

After all, NH may not be Paradise, but it's not MA.

 

[42!]

How about pants?
Are pants regulated in NH?


We got ours (and have even renewed them). See the NH Lockstep anecdote.


Totally.

But there are at least a few stories on NES about NH chiefs
that have lost lawsuits over ragtime like non-statutory processes.

(Almost?) all the stories are probably pre-Constitutional Carry,
but they're case law nonetheless.

I'm too lazy to look them up, but they left me with the impression
that (even before statutory reform regularizing and simplifying licensing),
some giants roamed the land, getting courts to stomp some chiefs into legal pudding
for coloring outside the lines.

Which you can't do unless the courts are legit.
And one might hope against hope that
many of those judges are still sitting on a bench.

So this lingering impression leave me surprised that some but not all NH chiefs
demand proof of domicile as proof of residency, and that they succeed at it.

After all, NH may not be Paradise, but it's not MA.

The issue about any remaining chiefs who are not following the rules, but not getting sued, may be because a resident P&R doesn't get you anything that a non-resident P&R won't also get you. Shops can still sell you a gun, just show them a tax bill and you're MA DL and you're good to go. And the law allows the sale of ammo, and at least some shop will sell to a MA res with a NH non-res P&R. Personally I'm in favor of fighting an unlawful requirement, just because. But most in MA already put up with this and just comply, so the idea that they would take a NH Chief to court when they can work around it, well that's just not likely.

 

[dcmdon]

AHM, its absolutely backed up by statute, unfortunately. I will have a go with finding residency statute for NH, but have looked it up in the past. Its very strict. Essentially you need to be domiciled there.

The context is that in 2016 a bunch of MA Dems drove to NH to take advantage of very lax residency requirements. So NH passed very strict residency requirements. The goal also seems to be to exclude college students (who make up a disproportionate part of NH's population) from voting to the greatest degree possible.

here is an article on the the law's passage and the impact.

New Residency Law In N.H. Sparks Charges Of Voter Suppression And A Lawsuit

Backers say the law clarifies the state's voting rules and brings New Hampshire in line with all other states, but opponents say it is a blatant effort by Republicans to block many college students from voting.

www.wbur.org

Here is a NH DOJ FAQ with relevant statutory citations.

Establishing a Domicile/Residence in New Hampshire FAQ | NH Department of Justice

www.doj.nh.gov

Essentially NH treats residency and being domiciled the same. It must be your primary place of residence. You also must hold a NH DL.

 

[AHM]

Essentially NH treats residency and being domiciled the same. It must be your primary place of residence. You also must hold a NH DL.

Thanks much. Had definitely heard of voting law changes,
but of course no one in the media ever touched upon collateral effects (like guns).

 

[Realtor MA]

Switch the numbers on the duplex so that the side you will be living in has the number you currently use. Easy!

 

[BigGreen2000]

Remember that different states define residency differently, and the ATF defines it different still.

The ATF considers that if you own homes in multiple states, you are a resident of whatever state you are in when you are there. So if you have a weekend home in NH, you can lawfully buy a gun there as a resident. Whichmeans you can buy handguns there and long guns that aren't legal in MA if that is your domicile state.

CT is happy to issue a person there who has a weekend home a RESIDENT pistol permit.

99% of NH towns will not issue a person with a weekend home there a RESIDENT P&R. This is important because NH has reciprocity with many many other states. But a good chunk of those states only recognize a RESIDENT NH P&R. Not a non-resident.

NH law is pretty clear. I don't have time to google it but it is out there.

Throughout all of this is the idea that there is a difference between a residence (which the ATF defines as anywhere you make a home. At SHOT show, I spoke to an ATF agent about this and he said that if you keep a toothbrush and clothes there, its a safe bet that they would consider it to be a residence) and a primary residence or domicile.

You only have one domicile. Your DL is issued by your domiciled state. You vote in your domiciled state. On top of that, you can have an unlimited number of residences.

What if the vacation home is owned by the family trust, of which the individual is an owner/managing member, rather than the actually individual?

 

[dcmdon]

How it is owned, and who it is owned by is irrelevant.

Do you make a home there? Do you keep clothes and a toothbrush there?

If its in a family trust and you rent it out 12 months of the year, its not a residence.

If its in a family trust and your family goes up there every weekend in the summer, it IS a residence. When you are there.
If you have 20 acres of land in NH with no structures, its not a residence.

If you rent a place for the year, its a residence, even though you don't own it.

It starts to get sticky when things get shorter. At what point does it cease to be a residence and just a place you stayed for vacation once? I don't know. 3 months? 1 month?

 

[42!]

What if the vacation home is owned by the family trust, of which the individual is an owner/managing member, rather than the actually individual?

Well Trusts don't really have owners, in fact that is one of the reasons for a trust, controle of the trust, and what it owns, can be passed from person to person but ownership never changes. Ownership shouldn't be confused with who gets the money when a trust is dissolved. You can be a trustee and effectively have full control of the trust, what it owns, and what happens to its assets, but you're not an "owner"

 

[dcmdon]

Well Trusts don't really have owners, in fact that is one of the reasons for a trust, controle of the trust, and what it owns, can be passed from person to person but ownership never changes. Ownership shouldn't be confused with who gets the money when a trust is dissolved. You can be a trustee and effectively have full control of the trust, what it owns, and what happens to its assets, but you're not an "owner"

True but irrelevant. . . well, actually not true. But still irrelevant. The beneficiary is the "owner" of the trust. Though the assets are not actually in their name. The trustee is a fiduciary for the beneficiary.

But again, who owns the property is irrelevant in the ATF's determination of whether or not you are a resident of a second or 3rd state.

Do you make a home there.

If its your friends house and you have a room there to use as you please during ski season, you make a home there.

 

[drgrant]

How it is owned, and who it is owned by is irrelevant.

Do you make a home there? Do you keep clothes and a toothbrush there?

If its in a family trust and you rent it out 12 months of the year, its not a residence.

If its in a family trust and your family goes up there every weekend in the summer, it IS a residence. When you are there.
If you have 20 acres of land in NH with no structures, its not a residence.

If you rent a place for the year, its a residence, even though you don't own it.

It starts to get sticky when things get shorter. At what point does it cease to be a residence and just a place you stayed for vacation once? I don't know. 3 months? 1 month?

Depends on context. In the ATF frame of context it's literally "is it a residence" "you have some vague proof of that" and you "intend to reside there" and the 3rd part is literally only between you and god basically and subject to change at any time. The ATF rules are easy to satisfy. Other rules, such as for taxation or voting are wholly and entirely different.

 

[dcmdon]

But irrelevant in the context of purchasing a gun in a state where you have a second residence.