Piston Conversion

[Hanwei]

Well... I haven't had any bandaids come off of my BCG yet. And my LWRC runs just fine. No "wear" marks on the receiver extension.

It seems to me that everyone who doesn't actually own a piston AR always talks about the carrier tilt issues and any attempt to fix those issues being "bandaids"... but every person I've met that DOES own a piston AR has never had any carrier tilt issues. Weird.

 

[Admin]

Well... I haven't had any bandaids come off of my BCG yet. And my LWRC runs just fine. No "wear" marks on the receiver extension.

It seems to me that everyone who doesn't actually own a piston AR always talks about the carrier tilt issues and any attempt to fix those issues being "bandaids"... but every person I've met that DOES own a piston AR has never had any carrier tilt issues. Weird.

What did I miss?

 

[Hanwei]

Nothing I was just telling Supermoto that I have had zero issues with my LWRC.

Have you encountered any carrier tilt issues with your piston LMT so far?

 

[Supermoto]

Nothing I was just telling Supermoto that I have had zero issues with my LWRC.

Have you encountered any carrier tilt issues with your piston LMT so far?

How many rounds have you put through it?

 

[Hanwei]

~800 so far. When am I supposed to see the carrier tilt wear marks?

 

[drgrant]

Cleaning my piston AR is quite quick and pleasant compared to cleaning my DI AR (which by far takes the longest of any of my guns to clean).

I can clean my Colt in about 10-15 minutes, tops. Not a big deal. If you're talking about the crap on the tail end of the bolt.... not necessary to
even touch it. It accumulates and then stops, basically.... similar to the stains on a revolver cylinder that aren't worth trying to scrub off.

Anyway... sorry for the huge ass post. I just don't understand why some of you refuse to accept the piston design when its advantages outweigh any advantage the DI system offers. I mean... CHOOSING to constantly clean and oil an AR that is designed to make itself dirty as balls... over another AR that stays clean and doesn't require such maintenance... is just plain stubbornness to me.

1- The gun is lighter and has less parts (If I put my rifle on a scale, and I put a piston AR on the same scale, I know which one is going to be heavier, and it's not going to be my gun. ) This isn't a -huge- deal to me, but it is a factor. Why do I want to lard up a very lightweight rifle with crap if I can
avoid it? (I'd feel differently, if my rifle already had an M4 profile barrel on it, then the weight difference would get lost in the noise, but that isn't the case with my particular rifle. )

2- Why fix a gun that isn't broken? (If I was getting into a Piston AR, I'd buy another whole gun, or at least another whole upper.... tearing a DI gas upper apart just seems foolish, to me, unless the thing was crap to begin with). This isn't like dropping in a motor to get another 100 HP- it's like changing the motor out on the car because the new motor is easier to change the oil on... You're moving "sideways" not up. (Course, in the OP's case, if he's really having that much trouble, other things might be at play).

3- Maybe my rifle was made on a monday or something, but it's not nearly as fussy as you describe. I'm mystified as to how people can have AR's that are that fussy, there must be an awful lot of junk floating around out there. Maybe I'm just lucky. I will take mine to the range a whole bunch of times without cleaning it, and it works fine, every time. Maybe this spring I'll keep shooting it until failure off of one cleaning, just to see how much abuse it will take.

-Mike

 

[Hanwei]

I can clean my Colt in about 10-15 minutes, tops. Not a big deal. If you're talking about the crap on the tail end of the bolt carrier.... not necessary to
even touch it. It accumulates and then stops, basically.... similar to the stains on a revolver cylinder that aren't worth trying to scrub off.

We must have different definitions of clean And did you mean the tail end of the bolt? That stuff takes FOREVER to clean off. But then again, I never knew that you didn't have to clean that off Why didn't anyone ever tell me! [sad2]

1- The gun is lighter and has less parts (If I put my rifle on a scale, and I put a piston AR on the same scale, I know which one is going to be heavier, and it's not going to be my gun. )

I'll give you this one. My piston AR is heavier than my DI AR. But not so much that it makes a difference to me.

2- Why fix a gun that isn't broken? (If I was getting into a Piston AR, I'd buy another whole gun, or at least another whole upper.... tearing a DI gas upper apart just seems foolish, to me, unless the thing was crap to begin with). This isn't like dropping in a motor to get another 100 HP- it's like changing the motor out on the car because the new motor is easier to change the oil on... You're moving "sideways" not up.

It's not just that it's easier to change the oil. With the new motor, you don't have to use oil at all if you don't want to. And if you do, you only have to change the oil every 15,000 miles instead of every 3,000. And the new motor doesn't blow it's exhaust back into the engine like the old one did so you don't have to constantly clean the engine to keep it running. Sounds like a move "up" to me

3- Maybe my rifle was made on a monday or something, but it's not nearly as fussy as you describe. I'm mystified as to how people can have AR's that are that fussy, there must be an awful lot of junk floating around out there. Maybe I'm just lucky. I will take mine to the range a whole bunch of times without cleaning it, and it works fine, every time. Maybe this spring I'll keep shooting it until failure off of one cleaning, just to see how much abuse it will take.

-Mike

My DI AR wasn't fussy at all. It was great. And still is great. I would run close to 7 or 800 rounds through that thing between cleanings with no problems at all. But I kept it wet... and the 800 or so rounds between cleanings was always spread out over 10 or so range trips. The most I've put through it at once is ~250-300 rounds at an Appleseed... started the weekend with the rifle clean... and was kept wet throughout. No issues. Like everyone says... keep it clean and wet... and a DI AR will be just fine. No argument from me.

But the 2 reasons I got my piston AR is 1. I don't have to clean it nearly as often... and when I do... it's painless. 2. It is my SHTF gun... and I don't want to have to worry about keeping a good supply of Breakfree on me to keep my rifle running

 

[cekim]

But the 2 reasons I got my piston AR is 1. I don't have to clean it nearly as often... and when I do... it's painless. 2. It is my SHTF gun... and what if I don't have any lube on me? Or I can't find any? Oh that's right... my rifle doesn't need lube to run reliably

In the oil pan of any car you find on the side of the road you will find all the lube you need (if you put a quart in a jar, all the lube you need for a VERY long time)...

 

[Hanwei]

It's still one less thing I have to worry about. And that's worth it for me. I mean... why go to the trouble when I can have an AR that requires no lube?

And I'll repeat... I have no "problem" wth DI AR's. I just have a problem with people telling other people not to buy piston AR's

 

[Jose]

why go to the trouble when I can have an AR that requires no lube?

ALL firearms require lubrication.

 

[Jose]

I'm mystified as to how people can have AR's that are that fussy, there must be an awful lot of junk floating around out there.

That's exactly it. The AR, like the 1911, has become a commodity where anyone and everyone can make a part for it to any level of adherence or non-adherence to the TDP. From 100% dimensionally and materially compliant to complete rubbish. And most people do not care. They'll (including some dodgy AR outfits like Olympia) assemble a rifle out of a box of unknown quality parts and then wonder why the rifle works like crap.

 

[alphawolf]

I have an idea. Someone buy me both those AR's and 25k rounds of ammo and I will personally and thoroughly test each one...and then give the results back here.

Someone has to make a sacrifice, it's the least I could do.

Now If I had the coin, I would own both, I do have two hands you know.

 

[Kalahari]

ALL firearms require lubrication.

Some far less than others..

 

[Hanwei]

ALL firearms require lubrication.

And finally, in one of the most recent upgrades to our rifles, the bolt carriers of all M6™ rifles are now coated with a proprietary nickel coating that nearly eliminates corrosion while providing greatly increased lubricity. This coating provides permanent lubrication to the moving parts. This nickel coating is similar to that being used by the US Army Research Lab and USSOCOM to extend the service life of their weapons systems.

Do I keep my AR lubed? Of course. There's no reason to cause any unnecessary wear. But... LWRC's action is designed to be able to run dry... so I can if I have to

 

[SecondAmdFirst]

Bill, I'm not sure who, around here, can install the piston conversion kit for you. But it sounds like Remsport is an option as they've already offered their services

For the rest of you "don't fix what's not broke" guys... I just picture a bunch of old cranky men sitting around the porch smoking their pipes and cigars... watching 2010 Chevy Camaros and 2010 Dodge Challengers drive by and saying things like ":grumblegrumble:... my '58 Chevy is JUST fine for me... gets me from point A to point B... no need for all these new fangled electronics and fancy things like fuel injection... BAH... Yeah, I gotta do lots of work every weekend to keep her runnin... but she ain't failed me yet!"

Converting your AR to piston (or getting a complete piston upper... or buying a complete piston AR) is NOT fixing what's not broke. It's simply called evolution of design. We as a species constantly strive to better our existence through technology, either by inventing completely new, better, technology... or in this case, by improving on current designs.

Yes, the DI AR works as designed. No one's disputing that. And if you are going to own a DI AR you accept that you will have to clean it every 500-1000 rounds IF you want it to stay reliable. And you HAVE to run it wet IF you want it to stay reliable. No big deal. Again, works as designed.

BUT..... these things that you HAVE to do in order to keep it reliable... are the limitations to the DI design.

Enter the piston design. A better design.

To keep a piston AR running reliably... you DON'T have to clean it every 500-1000 rounds... you DON'T have to run it wet (at least not for LWRC and POF piston uppers/rifles as their BCG's have a permanent self lubricating coating)... you actually don't have to do much of anything (on a regular basis) to keep it functioning reliably.

And when you do end up cleaning the piston AR... all you have to do is wipe the bolt and BCG down. There's no nasty carbon build-up on the bolt that takes 45 minutes to chisel off... or anywhere else in the action of the rifle really. Cleaning my piston AR is quite quick and pleasant compared to cleaning my DI AR (which by far takes the longest of any of my guns to clean).

Anyway... sorry for the huge ass post. I just don't understand why some of you refuse to accept the piston design when its advantages outweigh any advantage the DI system offers. I mean... CHOOSING to constantly clean and oil an AR that is designed to make itself dirty as balls... over another AR that stays clean and doesn't require such maintenance... is just plain stubbornness to me.

There's a reason why almost every other combat rifle out there uses a piston design.


EDIT to add: If those advantages I posted above aren't priorities for some... and you want to stick with the DI AR's... more power to ya. I'm in no way saying that the DI AR's suck and that everyone should have a piston AR. Not at all. I'm just saying that there's no reason to tell someone else NOT to get a piston AR if that is what they want

Hanwel, what do you think about chroming? Is this just a waste? I have a Sig 556, but I wondered about corrosion without chroming. Is this a good idea or just a waste of money? If it is worth doing, what is a reasonable price?

 

[Hanwei]

Hanwel, what do you think about chroming? Is this just a waste? I have a Sig 556, but I wondered about corrosion without chroming. Is this a good idea or just a waste of money? If it is worth doing, what is a reasonable price?

PM incoming. I already feel bad for hijacking Bill's thread

 

[Coyote33]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned Ruger yet.

Ruger sr-556sc

MA Compliant Ruger SR-556

 

[PatMcD]

Piston driven AR's are different. Not better, not worse, just different.

I see or have no use for them, but then again, I am that grumpy old man sitting on the front porch that Hanwei described earlier. If somebody wants to buy one, that's fine with me. Actually, I'd like to try one out. I am curious to see a side-by-side accuracy test.



I was trying to figure out how many rounds I have put through various AR's over the years and I came up with about 10,000. I can't think of any FTF malfunctions in my rifles in that time. I have absolutely never used the forward assist.
There are some here who can attest to the high level of neglect I subject my rifles to.
I just do not see the AR failures that others seem to have all the time.

 

[Billsail]

I just saw the new Sig16 AR Wow...Nice!!! Any chance of a MA compliant version?

Bill

 

[Hanwei]

Nevermind....found it... Sig 516... their piston entry into the AR15 world... looks nice

 

[Billsail]

Link?

The front page of this months American Rifleman. Maybe on the Sig website?

Bill

OK... Good, you found it.

Bill

 

[PaulD]

I just saw the new Sig16 AR Wow...Nice!!! Any chance of a MA compliant version?

Bill

You could always buy it in NH and have it made compliant. State Line in Mason seems to be good about that.

The Sig does look nice but I'd want to know more about the piston system. From what I can read, LWRC and POF seem to have the best piston systems in an AR type rifle.

edit: Here's the American Rifleman article
http://www.americanrifleman.org/ArticlePage.aspx?cid=1&id=2047