Pistol Caliber Carbine and Urban SHTF

mcshooter

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If we're talking SHTF in an urban area, I'd rather get out of there as discreet as possible. So have some spare mags for what I'd those to have with me.

If i were to go with a PCC, it would have to take the same mags as my carry so I can still manage in the event of a failure with the same mag
 

PatMcD

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Pistol calibers belong in pistols.
If the target/threat is far enough away that you need a rifle, then that target/threat deserves a rifle caliber (.223 or some other twinkle-toed commie caliber you might like).
If the target/threat is close enough where you don't need a rifle, you need a shotgun.
If the target/threat is too close to employ a shotgun, you've already lost.
 
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I'm not sure I see much real world utility in PCCs. They are fun range toys, but in a SHTF situation I wouldn't trust my life to one. I'm not an urbanite, but even if I were I would want my primary weapon system to have a little bite to it. Even if most engagements are inside of 50 yards, there's no guarantee that I won't have to shoot at something further than that and even if I can hit something at 100 with a PCC, there's no guarantee that its going to go down.
 

enbloc

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Pistol calibers belong in pistols.
If the target/threat is far enough away that you need a rifle, then that target/threat deserves a rifle caliber (.223 or some other twinkle-toed commie caliber you might like).
If the target/threat is close enough where you don't need a rifle, you need a claymore.
If the target/threat is too close to employ a shotgun, you've already lost.

FIFY[smile]
 

SJan

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The advantage of a PCC over an equivalently sized rifle-caliber SBR or carbine is twofold:

1) lighter weight (both firearm and ammo)

No its not

My PCC (10.5 " ABR 9mm AR) is significantly heavier than an equivalent barrel length 5.56 AR
While the 9mm barrel may be lighter ( depending on profile of each) its bolt and buffer are much heavier

And its ammo is also heavier, or relatively equal weight .
average 55 gr 5.56 round is 180gr
average factory 115gr 9mm is 185gr
my go to load of a 147gr 9mm is 212gr
 

Thirwell1216

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I've have a number of PCCs in my collection and have enjoyed them for many years. The Uzi is always a favorite because it goes bang everytime, mags and parts are cheap. But my new favorite is the KRISS Vector. Hard hitting and accurate and a lot of fun to shoot. The Scorpion EVO 3 Carbine with the fake can to hide the 16" barrel is also a great option. The Scorpion is like shooting an airgun and there is an Uzi mag conversion out there somewhere.
 

white feather

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Several people posted open carrying a 'battle rifle', I disagree. If I was aware a problem might develop and I still went into downtown NO, the last thing I'd want is a slung rifle marking me. You're going to have police running around WAY outside their comfort zone, not to mention FSA looking to pick up fire sale items. Both of these classes of people will probably react unfavorably to someone with a visible weapon.
The sub 2000 is 29.5" long (unless op plans on carrying it folded) and fires pistol calibers. RFB is 26" long and fires 7.62x51 from abundant preban 20 round mags.
 

Bill Katt

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What are your thoughts on PCCs for SHTF in an urban environment?

I'm thinking of scenarios such as political civil unrest, FSA riots if the EBT system goes down, etc. where order would be restored but not for days or weeks--something like the LA riots. In an environment where buildings are clustered in close quarters, would one be better served with a PCC like a sub2000 with compatible pistol mags, as opposed to an AR or AK platform rifle?

With your scenario, I'd think that a good pistol with an extra mag(mags) would be enough to get you to your 'real' rifles. This 'SHTF' scenario doesn't happen instantaneously. As long as you can 'see the signs' that the S is about to HTF...a good pistol with some extra ammo should suffice. Now, if you're that worried, start a thread about 'trunk gunz and SHTF' in the survival part of the forum. [wink]

JMMO...IANATHS..(I Am Not A Tinfoil Hat Survivalist)
 
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The so called pros of pistol carbine over a rifle carbine make no sense

Cheaper - 7.62x39 and 223 are cheap.
Better for supression - 308 and 300 blackout work great.
Less recoil - Get a good break and do some pushups.
Easier to carry - AR can brake down in two pieces and are easy to stow
Lighter Ammo - 223 is pretty light.

SBR a rifle or if you don't want to pay the stamp get a 14.5 with a brake.

You get the range, penetration and lethality of a rifle cartridge.
 

whacko

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Not sure what the advantage of a PCC is over a carbine length AR, but then again I don't live in an urban area.

The only advantage i see is that your long gun and handgun use the same magazines. Other than that.....meh[thinking]

- - - Updated - - -

If you feel the need for a PCC. Marlin Camp 9 with 30 round pre-Ban S&W 459,659 etc. style magazines

I want a camp 45 bad! Those we're cool little carbines.
 

StevieP

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The so called pros of pistol carbine over a rifle carbine make no sense

Cheaper - 7.62x39 and 223 are cheap.
Better for supression - 308 and 300 blackout work great.
Less recoil - Get a good break and do some pushups.
Easier to carry - AR can brake down in two pieces and are easy to stow
Lighter Ammo - 223 is pretty light.

SBR a rifle or if you don't want to pay the stamp get a 14.5 with a brake.

You get the range, penetration and lethality of a rifle cartridge.

Demerits for misusing brake and break in consecutive sentences!
 
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No its not

My PCC (10.5 " ABR 9mm AR) is significantly heavier than an equivalent barrel length 5.56 AR
While the 9mm barrel may be lighter ( depending on profile of each) its bolt and buffer are much heavier

And its ammo is also heavier, or relatively equal weight .
average 55 gr 5.56 round is 180gr
average factory 115gr 9mm is 185gr
my go to load of a 147gr 9mm is 212gr

Your specific PCC is heavier than some unspecified SBR'd AR-15, therefore PCC's in general are heavier than rifle-caliber SBRs. Makes sense.
 

NHCraigT

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Well, thanks for that. Ordered this morning. Like I needed help. But you did solve my dilemma of sbr a pistol, Or the carbine. Will post pics later this week in the acquisitions thread.

Your welcome. [smile]

I'm waiting for the paperwork to come back on a can i purchased last year, for my scorpion. I can't help but think that if anyone ever has a chance to fondle one, let alone shoot one, they'd be jumping on the bandwagon.
 
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i picked up a sig mpx (9mm). it has the sig brace and with my primary arms red dot it is a tack driver at the 35 yards i shoot it at. its my range toy. if the natives are restless, i'm grabing an AR.

that being said if the hearing protection act passes, i'm getting a can for the mpx first.
 

jasonj84

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My buddy has the MPX. Seemed heavy for what it is. We should be shooting that and an Evo SBR next weekend. Will try to get back with a range report (on a new thread, of course).
 
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If you feel the need for a PCC. Marlin Camp 9 with 30 round pre-Ban S&W 459,659 etc. style magazines
I have a Camp 9 but no S&W pistol. Now on the other hand, my Camp 45 and a couple of 1911s with plenty mags are another story[grin]
My Glock 19 for up close and my sub 2k for maybe peaking around a corner and taking a little longer shot also appeal to me. Same mags for both.
I like my Colt AR 9mm carbine but really don't trust the Colt mags in the long run which is why I want a 9mm lower that takes Glock mags.
Being in MD I was lucky enough to buy a milled receiver AK before 10/13 but really wish I had been able to get a folder instead. When our laws were changing in 2013 it was Extremely hard to find any AK before they were banned. And the prices jumped a lot at that time. Ownership is grandfathered in but can't buy one now. We can still legally buy 30 rd mags out of state and bring them in. Not like you poor [email protected]@rds in MA.
For SBR sin MD, they have to measure 29"OL with stock collapsed. Kind of defeats the purpose.
 

powerman

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Berretta cx4 using 92 mags here with the extra killy Battlestar Galactica device on the barrel. (it came with riffle, I rescued it it)

https://tse3.mm.bing.net/th?id=OIP.ccyQEUhMP_NeQfAl8O6jxgEsCn&w=238&h=160&c=7&qlt=90&o=4&dpr=1.25&pid=1.7

My Take
The CX4 is intended to hand to wife as her long gun along with a 92fs in a holster when things get out of hand.
I figured it would work well for a long gun in a vehicle.
if had to, show a kid how to use one.

In general pistol and carbine of same caliber make a lot of sense in some cases.

the combo above, I think is good for getting out of dodge by a vehicle and would be used as last resort
I figured it would be used for shots well under 150Yards with more like 50-100.

the big question: It depends on pistol caliber as how good the carbine becomes a "rifle". Not sure where that line is.
 

bigblue

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I have a Camp 9 but no S&W pistol. Now on the other hand, my Camp 45 and a couple of 1911s with plenty mags are another story[grin]
My Glock 19 for up close and my sub 2k for maybe peaking around a corner and taking a little longer shot also appeal to me. Same mags for both.
I like my Colt AR 9mm carbine but really don't trust the Colt mags in the long run which is why I want a 9mm lower that takes Glock mags.
Being in MD I was lucky enough to buy a milled receiver AK before 10/13 but really wish I had been able to get a folder instead. When our laws were changing in 2013 it was Extremely hard to find any AK before they were banned. And the prices jumped a lot at that time. Ownership is grandfathered in but can't buy one now. We can still legally buy 30 rd mags out of state and bring them in. Not like you poor [email protected]@rds in MA.
For SBR sin MD, they have to measure 29"OL with stock collapsed. Kind of defeats the purpose.


In the long run, steel Colt mags are more reliable than plastic Glock mags that interface at a funny angle. Neither have a rotating bolt since they are straight blowback. Roller lock is better for pistol calibers.

MP5SD with collapsible stock FTW
 
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One of the good things about PCC's like the Kel-Tec and (gasp!) High-Point is that BECAUSE they are pistol caliber they are easier to point-and-shoot than AR or AK platform weapons. They are also somewhat "quiter" so the operator is less likely to suffer hearing loss with low round count use. Lady Radtekk doesn't like the WASR because of recoil, likes the AR's ok, likes the High-Points better. My daughters won't even shoot the WASR. So if I am forced to share firearms with friends in a TEOTWAWKI situation, something they can be reasonably accurate with from the first shot that is relatively simple to operate seems advantageous to me. Also, I can buy two (or three or more these days!) High-Points for the cost of ONE AR-platform rifle. Mags and ammo are cheaper too. And if all I have to "defend" is 50 yeards or so from my porch, I don't really need something with battle-rifle range.
 

enbloc

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... And if all I have to "defend" is 50 yeards or so from my porch, I don't really need something with battle-rifle range.

With deep respect, I whole-heartedly disagree. What you see before you may only be a scouting team with re-enforcements at the ready to pounce, or engage at a safer distance.
They may not wait for you to go back inside to get something more suitable. I would never engage an attacker with a sub2000 unless, of course, that was the only thing I had.
My attitude is simple, anything worth pointing a gun at and shooting to death... deserves all the firepower I can muster.
~Matt
 

Buck F

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I have a couple of Sub2k and a couple of AR15s. If push came to shove in a survival situation I'd pick the AR every single time. The Sub is a fun toy and I keep one at the office (w/ a happy stick and few conventional mags) because it's the only long gun I can fit in the office safe but its basic purpose is to get me home to the AR if the SHTF. I could also see bringing it on a camping trip if I wanted something compact but bigger than a handgun.
 

frenchman

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Honestly, the only reasons for PCCs are that they're fun to shoot and ammo is cheap. For SHTF situations, there is absolutely ZERO argument to be made for them. My 300 BO with a 8.5 barrel, brace and LAW folding adapter folds down to around 16", and can shoot 147 grain ammo, that will stay supersonic past 100 yards, or 220 grain ammo suppressed just by changing mags. I can get hunting ammo for expansion if I feel like it. STANAG mags. When shit gets real, you want to drop the guy, not just send a message.
 
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