Pistol Caliber Carbine and Urban SHTF

I like my SUB2K that takes Glock mags and my G17 or 19, nice combination with the 33 round mag.
However, my model B UZI that is SBR'd is a tank and has a long proven track record of urban/suburban combat use which the SUB2K does not. Too bad there wasn't a handgun that took UZI mags!
 
What are your thoughts on PCCs for SHTF in an urban environment?

I'm thinking of scenarios such as political civil unrest, FSA riots if the EBT system goes down, etc. where order would be restored but not for days or weeks--something like the LA riots. In an environment where buildings are clustered in close quarters, would one be better served with a PCC like a sub2000 with compatible pistol mags, as opposed to an AR or AK platform rifle?
What's the use for this gun? If people are rioting, I'm not heading to the grocery store where they are; anywhere I do go I'd rather be discreet and just bring my usual EDC pistol. If the rioters come after me at home, PCC be damned - I want maximum firepower. The idea of running around with a sub2k in your backpack that you can whip out and start taking out bad guys is just not realistic imo, much like trunk guns.



Prior to the defeat of the Felonious Pantsuit l was worried about the potential ban of all semi autos, especially in MA. I added a Henry lever action and a Ruger bolt action rifle, both in 357 mag, to the arsenal. I really like my 357 revolvers and see them as very useful in SHTF situations​. Plus, I thought (potentially incorrect) that they wouldn't be coming after traditional Fudd guns right away. I saw these guns as insurance against efforts to to​ take away all semi autos. My thinking at the time was that even a vastly empowered, democratally controlled gov't wouldn't dare to take away FUDD guns. Good insurance!
I would think that a fear of a semi-auto ban would have people buying MORE semi-autos, not less, and that if they really do come for your semi-autos then it's time to use them, but what do I know.
 
I carry a phase plasma rifle - usually in the 40-watt range - in my trunk at all times for urban combat situations.



What? I thought we were all playing pretend. Urban combat?????? [rofl]
 
Maybe it's just my particular AR9, but in my experience AR15s are significantly more reliable.

The only real advantages the AR9 has is cost to shoot and quietness.
 
SBR with a can sounds like a good deal.
Suppressability is another advantage a PCC has over most rifles.

I have a Tavor and a G19 ready in a go bag in my apt in the city to get me where I am going in SHTF/WROL.
Suppressed Tavor in 9mm; too bad there are few options for a pistol caliber pistol taking the same "Colt/UZI" magazines.

Not quite as short as a SBR, though you can get close with the right suppressor:
 
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I build my 10mm AR with that in mind. Eats the same thing as my Glocks and I can fit 36 of them in a GG mag. It's not a SBR but still a hoot to shoot. My SBR has two uppers, 300BLK and 458 SOCOM.
 
rifle will always be more lethal. I wouldn't trust my life with a kel tech...sorry. If you want a pistol cailber carbine get an UZI rugged, reliable, cheap pre bans lots of surplus parts, compact.

I personally will take my 11" 5.56 AR

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Can you elaborate on why? I like the idea of a Henry in .357 for home defense.


until you go looking for ammo....or run into a group of bad guys.
 
In SHTF situation, I'm assuming you won't be held accountable for your shots and anything goes. And other people might be shooting back at you. Then it would make sense to have a capable rifle to end any fight quickly. Red dot on a 14.5" carbine or SBR. I like my AR9s, but they're not something I would bet my life on. And if someone was shooting rifle rounds at you, that Sub2000 is pretty much dominated.

The OP was talking about civil unrest type of SHTF rather than zombie apocalypse, grid down for good SHTF.

I think a realistic possibility is an environment where society is still functioning but there's so much crime or unrest that you'd want a foldable rifle in your backpack when you walk around. I'd still prefer an AR, if things are bad enough I'll open carry it.
 
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The OP was talking about civil unrest type of SHTF rather than zombie apocalypse, grid down for good SHTF.

I think a realistic possibility is an environment where society is still functioning but there's so much crime or unrest that you'd want a foldable rifle in your backpack when you walk around. I'd still prefer an AR, if things are bad enough I'll open carry it.

I agree.

If its civil unrest/rioting (or full on walking dead)I am I wouldn't give any second thought to open carrying or not.
The only consideration would not wanting to make yourself a target of undue attention as you make your way away from other people. That's where an sbr or bullpup shines.
That being said a serious looking rifle, that doesn't look like a flimsy toy gun with the orange cap(Keltec) taken off, sends a pretty clear message of "don't f-with me" to the wellwishing hooligan or crazed-rabid-rapist.
An AR is readily identified and sends that message loud and clear. in addition to being lightweight, reliable, and fully capable and has an excellent track record of shooting people in the face.

In the case of alien invasion my Tavor says "Only good bug is a dead bug."
 
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The OP was talking about civil unrest type of SHTF rather than zombie apocalypse, grid down for good SHTF.

I think a realistic possibility is an environment where society is still functioning but there's so much crime or unrest that you'd want a foldable rifle in your backpack when you walk around. I'd still prefer an AR, if things are bad enough I'll open carry it.

OP referenced FSA rioting after the EBT system goes down. That is definitely TEOTWAWKI end times in some urban areas. Either way, if you need to deploy the compact rifle from your backpack, that means it's probably not a defensive situation. You had enough alone time to get it ready. You're going on the offensive. In that situation, would anyone ever engage bad guys with a Kel Tec if there are other choices?

Also, might make sense to have an extra 7" or 10" barrel around. Just in case. Assuming tax stamps are not needed during SHTF.
 
I don't have golf clubs, will a wiffle ball bat do?

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Any blunt or sharp object you can swing fast will do in a pinch. Having been hit in the jimmies with a wiffle bat in a previous life, I can definitively say it will at least buy you a few seconds to run away from a now even-more-enraged attacker. Aim well.
 
However, my model B UZI that is SBR'd is a tank and has a long proven track record of urban/suburban combat use which the SUB2K does not. Too bad there wasn't a handgun that took UZI mags!

There is, the UZI Pistol:

bDSC05639.JPG


rifle will always be more lethal. I wouldn't trust my life with a kel tech...sorry. If you want a pistol cailber carbine get an UZI rugged, reliable, cheap pre bans lots of surplus parts, compact.

Where are you finding cheap UZI's ??? (9mm's, not the current .22 replicas)
 
What are your thoughts on PCCs for SHTF in an urban environment?

I'm thinking of scenarios such as political civil unrest, FSA riots if the EBT system goes down, etc. where order would be restored but not for days or weeks--something like the LA riots. In an environment where buildings are clustered in close quarters, would one be better served with a PCC like a sub2000 with compatible pistol mags, as opposed to an AR or AK platform rifle?

Just one more opinion:
This is what led to the development of the FN 57 and P90. Two platforms using the same round using advanced ballistics. Pistol for up close and a rifle for a bit further. Go back in history and you find rifles that shoot handgun rounds. You aren't inventing the wheel, but you give up 'firepower' using the pistol round. In an urban environment, I'd say any shot outside 50 yards you should probably hide or take another route. So in my opinion, unless you are talking bad guys wearing armor, a pistol round fired from whatever platform, should do the job. I've shot the storm carbine and it's pretty accurate at my 'standard' distance of 50 yards, good enough to aim low or high if someone shrugged off a center mass shot.

As for me, I have an AK underfolder as my Mad Max trunk monkey gun.

Edit: Yay, for once I finish a reading a thread after posting something and it hasn't gone off the reservation and my post on page 6 still makes a little sense.

Several people posted open carrying a 'battle rifle', I disagree. If I was aware a problem might develop and I still went into downtown NO, the last thing I'd want is a slung rifle marking me. You're going to have police running around WAY outside their comfort zone, not to mention FSA looking to pick up fire sale items. Both of these classes of people will probably react unfavorably to someone with a visible weapon.

One last edit I hope, but you simply are not going to want to engage unless you can not get away. You will be outnumbered, more than likely out gunned. That crap only works in movies, best to make it home with the same round count you started with.
 
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There is, the UZI Pistol:

bDSC05639.JPG




Where are you finding cheap UZI's ??? (9mm's, not the current .22 replicas)

I meant cheap pre ban magazines for the gun. IF you wanted to co "cheap" there is the norinco offering never shot one but hear hit or miss quality on them. Last I was looking seems IWI uzis were around $1600
 
Obrez.

Crowd clearing fireball and noise will compensate for lack of capacity. Plus you will look badass. [rockon]
 
...and a Mac-11 for when things don't go according to plan.

When the EBT cards stop working I intend to be as far away from "urban" as I can get. The best way to survive civil unrest is to be somewhere else at the time.

Obrez. Crowd clearing fireball and noise will compensate for lack of capacity. Plus you will look badass.
Or go the other direction, be The Gray Man, with a short PCC, suppressor, and subsonic ammo.
 
When the EBT cards stop working I intend to be as far away from "urban" as I can get. The best way to survive civil unrest is to be somewhere else at the time.

I lived in New York City for about 8 years, and it was something I was intensely aware of and uneasy about. It honestly wouldn't take much to flip the switch on the city. Turn the power off for 2-3 weeks and that place would explode like a pressure cooker.
 
Just one more opinion:
Several people posted open carrying a 'battle rifle', I disagree. If I was aware a problem might develop and I still went into downtown NO, the last thing I'd want is a slung rifle marking me. You're going to have police running around WAY outside their comfort zone, not to mention FSA looking to pick up fire sale items. Both of these classes of people will probably react unfavorably to someone with a visible weapon.

I think the rifle open carry comments are more about when shit has already gone sideways and things have already gotten out of hand and its on like roof-Koreans.
Also if you were aware of a developing problem in an area why would you be going toward it?
I would be taking my "battle-royale rifle" and going the other way as fast as I could.
 
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