PD is requesting a Naturalization Certificate for FID. I was never Naturalized.

In a bit of a unique situation. I was born outside of the United States, but immigrated when I was very young. My parents obtained citizenship via naturalization and since I was under 18 I became a citizen as well. My parents never applied for a Certificate of Citizenship (Form N-600) and my only proof of my citizenship is my US Passport. For those curious, you can apply for a passport (DS-11) with proof of derived citizenship (all the documents you'd need for an N-600).

I got a call from my police department saying that my application had been put on hold because I needed to provide a naturalization certificate since I was born outside of the United States. I offered to show a passport, but they stated that it could not be accepted since it "has an expiry date". Additionally, my police department (Billerica) does state on their website that to qualify for an FID: "A naturalized citizen within the above age restrictions (applicant must present proof of naturalization)". I was never naturalized.

I could apply for a Certificate of Citizenship (Form N-600), however, the average processing times for these applications are 1+ year. I do not want to wait a year just so I can exercise my constitutional right to bear arms. I'm quite confused because an FID is a shall-issue license and besides naturalization, all other qualifications for obtaining the license are met. What action can I take?
This is normal and is part of the application process. Your police chief is not trying to mess with you.
When your parents got their citizenship, they received a naturalization certificate. Since you were minor, the certificate applies to you as well. You need to find that naturalization paper or request a duplicate from NIS. The replacement cost is about $400-$500 so your parents better look hard through their papers.

EDIT: You also want to double-check if the police really need a copy of the certificate. They just need the naturalization certificate number. They use it as part of your background check. A copy of the certificate should not be required.
 
Small update. I got a call from the police department again. The officer responsible for firearms licensing said that he wants to see "as much documentation as possible" about me. I mentioned that the most proof of citizenship I have is a US Passport and he said he wants to see that on top of other identifying documents I could provide.

Since he was quite vague about what identification he was actually requesting, I asked what other identifying documents I could provide. He mentioned that I could bring a copy of my birth certificate. He kept emphasizing that he wanted documents to know who I am / get to know me. I asked if a US Passport would be enough to satisfy his identification requirements and he angrily responded "You're trying to get an answer over the phone, you're not going to get that" and asked me to bring in all of my identifying documents.

Strangely his tone was extremely hostile and it sounded like he was irritated to work with me. I had left a previous phone message where I mentioned the past work Comm2A has done with other towns. I wonder if that's what set him off.
 
Small update. I got a call from the police department again. The officer responsible for firearms licensing said that he wants to see "as much documentation as possible" about me. I mentioned that the most proof of citizenship I have is a US Passport and he said he wants to see that on top of other identifying documents I could provide.

Since he was quite vague about what identification he was actually requesting, I asked what other identifying documents I could provide. He mentioned that I could bring a copy of my birth certificate. He kept emphasizing that he wanted documents to know who I am / get to know me. I asked if a US Passport would be enough to satisfy his identification requirements and he angrily responded "You're trying to get an answer over the phone, you're not going to get that" and asked me to bring in all of my identifying documents.

Strangely his tone was extremely hostile and it sounded like he was irritated to work with me. I had left a previous phone message where I mentioned the past work Comm2A has done with other towns. I wonder if that's what set him off.
Get a lawyer soon. You should have recorded that conversation. And record all conversations with PD. That is completely legal even in "all party consent" states. It is always legal to record any public employee doing their public work.
This guy sounds like he has already decided to deny and just wants the thinnest veneer of authority to do so.
 
Get a lawyer soon. You should have recorded that conversation. And record all conversations with PD. That is completely legal even in "all party consent" states. It is always legal to record any public employee doing their public work.
This guy sounds like he has already decided to deny and just wants the thinnest veneer of authority to do so.
I have been in contact with Comm2A and they've made it clear that they'd be happy to assist me. I'm not sure if I want to reach out to a private lawyer just yet because I'd like to avoid legal fees as much as possible.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but there are very little reasons you can actually get denied for an FID? Obviously excluding basic requirements such as having a clean background check. From my understanding, FIDs are pretty much always "shall issue".
 
I have been in contact with Comm2A and they've made it clear that they'd be happy to assist me. I'm not sure if I want to reach out to a private lawyer just yet because I'd like to avoid legal fees as much as possible.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but there are very little reasons you can actually get denied for an FID? Obviously excluding basic requirements such as having a clean background check. From my understanding, FIDs are pretty much always "shall issue".

If they are going to give you all this crap over an FID you might as well get an LTC and be done with it.

Bob
 
I have been in contact with Comm2A and they've made it clear that they'd be happy to assist me. I'm not sure if I want to reach out to a private lawyer just yet because I'd like to avoid legal fees as much as possible.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but there are very little reasons you can actually get denied for an FID? Obviously excluding basic requirements such as having a clean background check. From my understanding, FIDs are pretty much always "shall issue".

Unless there's some really compelling reason to get an FID, don't. Get an LTC. There's no good reason for an FID unless you're under 21 and an LTC isn't an option.

I can't wrap my brain around what "getting to know you" means or why a passport is 100% legit for me (to prove I'm a citizen) but not for you. (I'm in Billerica, too) Unless he's got some bias against people from away and is looking for an excuse to hassle you or deny you.

When my wife got her LTC (first one) it was completely painless, no fuss, no hassle, nothing. But she's over 25 and a woman, so maybe that factors in.
 
I have been in contact with Comm2A and they've made it clear that they'd be happy to assist me. I'm not sure if I want to reach out to a private lawyer just yet because I'd like to avoid legal fees as much as possible.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong but there are very little reasons you can actually get denied for an FID? Obviously excluding basic requirements such as having a clean background check. From my understanding, FIDs are pretty much always "shall issue".
You can bet they won't forget when you apply for an unrestricted carry permit.
This group constantly reaffirms my escape south with my family. NC isn't perfect. But life is a lot better down here.
 
If they are going to give you all this crap over an FID you might as well get an LTC and be done with it.
Unless there's some really compelling reason to get an FID, don't. Get an LTC. There's no good reason for an FID unless you're under 21 and an LTC isn't an option.
I am under 21.
 
Strangely his tone was extremely hostile

Strangely? 😂

It is always legal to record any public employee doing their public work.

It should be, but that's unfortunately not true. People have been charged with and convicted of wiretapping for just that. It's completely bullshit, but it happens. And Massachusetts is literally, without question, the worst state in the country. MA is in fact the only state that has ever successfully convicted someone of wiretapping for recording a police encounter that I'm aware of. Now in light of Glik v. Cunniffe and Gericke v. Begin, it's harder, but neither of those rulings addressed phone calls, in which the MA statute still prohibits recording (without the knowledge of all parties).


"The criminal conviction of Michael Hyde is (apparently) the first time that a citizen of Massachusetts has been convicted because he tape recorded an exchange with a police officer performing an official function in a public place...Many States have wiretapping statutes similar to the one enacted in 1968 in Massachusetts [Note Dissent-10]. In only one reported decision has a State attempted to indict a citizen in circumstances similar to those in this case. The attempt was summarily rejected"
 
Geesh, lots of useless info here. Just follow the instructions! Massachusetts LTC application, page 2, question ONE:

"If naturalized, give date, place and naturalization number"

The naturalization number is ON THE NATURALIZATION CERTIFICATE! If you were underage, you were naturalized with your parents. When your parents took the United States Citizen's oath, They received this certificate as proof. Take a copy of the certificate and write the number down on the application!

You don't need a lawyer or Comm2A just to fill out an application. Moreover, don't listen to "knowledgable people" about getting an FID instead: it's the same application and it needs to be filled out completely!

 
Geesh, lots of useless info here. Just follow the instructions! Massachusetts LTC application, page 2, question ONE:

"If naturalized, give date, place and naturalization number"

That’s great. But now what do you do when you’ve done that but the cop still won’t process the application unless you provide the certificate?
 
Just for everyone's information, federal law is very clear that a valid US passport is evidence of citizenship.

22 U.S. Code § 2705 - Documentation of citizenship

The following documents shall have the same force and effect as proof of United States citizenship as certificates of naturalization or of citizenship issued by the Attorney General or by a court having naturalization jurisdiction:

(1) A passport, during its period of validity (if such period is the maximum period authorized by law), issued by the Secretary of State to a citizen of the United States.

(2) The report, designated as a “Report of Birth Abroad of a Citizen of the United States”, issued by a consular officer to document a citizen born abroad. For purposes of this paragraph, the term “consular officer” includes any United States citizen employee of the Department of State who is designated by the Secretary of State to adjudicate nationality abroad pursuant to such regulations as the Secretary may prescribe.
I'm having a hard time getting my head around the expiration derp.

In addition to two federal lawsuits over this issue, Comm2A has also sent letters to several other departments. One revised thier documentation and actually refreneced passports when they named the new pdf.
 
I am under 21.

I suspected that might be the case, but didn’t want to assume.

Billerica PD issues target/hunting restrictions for first time LTC applicants under 25.

Hopefully when you apply for your LTC (your FID doesn’t need to expire to apply for an LTC) they’ll treat it as a renewal and issue it w/o restrictions.

For right now, it’s probably easiest to get whatever paperwork you can from your parents and submit that.
 
This is normal and is part of the application process. Your police chief is not trying to mess with you.
When your parents got their citizenship, they received a naturalization certificate. Since you were minor, the certificate applies to you as well. You need to find that naturalization paper or request a duplicate from NIS. The replacement cost is about $400-$500 so your parents better look hard through their papers.

EDIT: You also want to double-check if the police really need a copy of the certificate. They just need the naturalization certificate number. They use it as part of your background check. A copy of the certificate should not be required.
They're not trying to 'mess' with him, they're ignorant. For some reason lots of PDs won't (or didn't want to) accept passports as positive ID and proof of citizenship. Old habits are hard to break. And the idea of 'derived' citizenship is hard for them to get their heads around. So often these guys are drones executing a checklist and not bothering to think. The best example was Chicopee who demanded parental consent from BOTH parents for an under 18 FID card even if one parent was a non-custodial felon.

And yes, the want the application naturalization certificate. He doesn't have one and they don't want his parent's certificate.

Geesh, lots of useless info here. Just follow the instructions! Massachusetts LTC application, page 2, question ONE:

"If naturalized, give date, place and naturalization number"

The naturalization number is ON THE NATURALIZATION CERTIFICATE! If you were underage, you were naturalized with your parents. When your parents took the United States Citizen's oath, They received this certificate as proof. Take a copy of the certificate and write the number down on the application!

You don't need a lawyer or Comm2A just to fill out an application. Moreover, don't listen to "knowledgable people" about getting an FID instead: it's the same application and it needs to be filled out completely!

You have a clear understanding of how the process should work under the law, but it doesn't actually work that way. Everyone one of the Commonwealth's 351 licensing authorities have their own rules. And while they can't deny an FID card to the OP, they just won't accept his application until he provides whatever they want even if it's not possible for him to produce it. We call it the 'pocket' denial. This is why the state can say that very few firearm license applications are denied. The PDs just refuse to process them if they don't like the applicant.
 
You have a clear understanding of how the process should work under the law, but it doesn't actually work that way.
I actually DO know how it works! I've helped my immigrant wife who was naturalized along with her parents because she was a minor at the time. I've also helped about 4-5 families who are also naturalized citizens. The advantage of having a wife who's an immigrant is meeting families who escaped Socialist and Communist regimes to come to this country(legally!). I helped them apply in the towns of Needham, Newton, Barnstable, Ashland, and Weston: All got their LTC's. All provided their naturalization #'s, all received their LTC's. Newton took the longest and came with restrictions but otherwise, all were just fine.

Police people are just like the rest of us: they don't want to argue with you when you don't listen and they DEFINITELY don't want to listen to your threats!
 
Hi all, wanted to give an update to this thread with some great news. When I first posted it, I looked through NES for stories like mine and although I had found some threads, they appeared to be largely unresolved/with no clear path of "what do I do myself". I want to give some context for anyone else who might be a US Citizen without having gone through naturalization.

After I created this thread, extremely helpful folk from Comm2A reached out to me to help me. Despite barely knowing me, they offered as much support as they could, even going as far as mentioning pursuing legal action if it came to that point.

Here is a rough timeline of what happened:
1. I applied to get an FID on June 23rd.
2. On June 28th, I got a call from the police department saying that my application was put on hold because I was born outside of the US and needed to provide a Certificate of Naturalization.
3. The same day, I posted on this forum and got in contact with Comm2A about the situation.
4. On June 29th, I called the officer responsible for firearms licensing about why I couldn't provide a naturalization certificate and that my US Passport is enough to prove citizenship according to precedent like Ngo v. Evans.
5. On June 30th, the officer called me back and told me in a hostile tone that he wanted "as much documentation as possible" about me. This was not limited to just my US Passport and the officer refused to tell me what was required.
-- At this point I stopped posting on NES in case they were watching this thread. I didn't want to piss them off anymore than I might have already.
6. On the same day, Comm2A notified me that they spoke with leadership at DCJIS who mentioned that this officer had received complaints in the past and that they were planning to give him a call about it.
7. On July 7th, I submitted copies of my US Passport, my foreign Birth Certificate, and my parent's Certificate of Naturalization to the police department. Although the naturalization certificate wasn't specifically requested, I wanted to act in as much good faith as possible because I wanted this over sooner than later.
8. On July 27th, I received a call from the police department to schedule my FID interview.
9. On July 28th, I had my FID interview where they took my photo, fingerprints, and asked me a variety of questions such as my familiarity with safe storage laws, what I plan to do with my license, and miscellaneous questions about my background. The same officer who was hostile on the June 30th call was the one who conducted the interview and was shockingly kind, even cracking jokes. Perhaps the call from DCJIS was what fixed his attitude.
10. On August 16th, I received my Firearms Identification Card in the mail from my police department (the card was issued on August 4th, only 6 days after the FID interview).

Overall, it took 54 days from when I submitted my application to physically receive my FID and this was with all the help from Comm2A. If anyone else ends up coming across this thread with a similar situation in the future, I would strongly recommend reaching out to [email protected] as their help was critical.

It has been heartwarming seeing all the support from the gun community despite being somewhat of an outsider and I thank everyone who gave advice on this thread :). A special shout out to Brent from Comm2A who saved me from making some dumb mistakes, like submitting a long letter about what happened to other towns that tried to deny an FID for similar reasons (even if they're being a**h***s, try to avoid pissing them off as much as possible, even if it seems like what they're doing is illegal).
 
Considering that the paperwork you should have submitted from the get-go was in fact submitted on July 7th, that's only 37 days. That's pretty darn fast!

"should have submitted" :rolleyes:

37 days(really 54) for a request to exercise his rights.
Oh wait, he can't exercise his rights as it is only an FID.

Stockholm Syndrome right here.

Why you people continue to support that stuff is beyond me.

***
Glad it worked out for you OP.
 
Wow, quite the struggle!

FYI, proof of US citizenship cannot be a requirement.
If applying as a US citizen it is a requirement.

If applying as a non US citizen the applicant must show proof of his legal status in the US (like a green card for permanent residents).

So with the OP being a US citizen, he wouldn’t have any non US citizen documents hence the need for proof of US citizenship.
 
If applying as a US citizen it is a requirement.

If applying as a non US citizen the applicant must show proof of his legal status in the US (like a green card for permanent residents).

So with the OP being a US citizen, he wouldn’t have any non US citizen documents hence the need for proof of US citizenship.
you mean like a passport?
 
Considering that the paperwork you should have submitted from the get-go was in fact submitted on July 7th, that's only 37 days. That's pretty darn fast!
He submitted his passport - nothing further needed.
You need to be a citizen or permanent alien.
Passport proves citizenship - how you became a citizen doesn't matter.
 
well, congratulations on getting that fid, but jeez @Zinose, that was a lot of shit for an fid. why didn't you apply for the ltc like a few people told you too? just seems to make more sense to me but hey, what do i know. again, congrats on the victory.
 
Congrats comrade good thing the party leader gave you permission to own a gun.
 
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